|
Re: Indy Dealers And Moderators.. ATTENTION !!!!!!!!!
[Re: BILLYJAY]
#463476
09/08/09 10:41 PM
09/08/09 10:41 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,763
Walton's Mountain, Pa
Steve1118
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,763
Walton's Mountain, Pa
|
It's not necessary. You deal with the engine builder/dealer, and they are good and bad. Bob George is an Indy dealer and his integrity is absolutely beyond reproach. But, you call Flagle or Lazzari and all you will get is P.O.'d.
The fact is that their stuff is good...and guys run real fast with it. My advice is to find a good engine builder that has good relationships with them and let them handle it.
"Old age and treachery trumps youth and enthusiasm, every time!" East Central Director / Chrysler Power Magazine www.reasbeckracing.webs.com
|
|
|
Re: Indy Dealers And Moderators.. ATTENTION !!!!!!!!!
[Re: BILLYJAY]
#463477
09/08/09 11:03 PM
09/08/09 11:03 PM
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
i understand your plight, but it's possoble in your case it's not all indy's fault. i don't mean any disrespect, but consider this for what it's worth.
many people attemp to build their own engines without having either the experience or expertise to see it through without having problems. in your case it sounds like you bought a kit that included the pushrods. now, before you assembled said pushrods, did you check the wall thickness? did you decide it was ample for YOUR application? who assembled and installed them? maybe you didn't know that an .080 pushrod was not good enough? this isn't a slam on you, but you have to take some blame on this one, dodn't you.
when in doubt, ask questions. i'm think (and i could be wrong} that you simply didn't know any better. if that's the case you wouldn't be the frst one. lots of people use their pushrods and don't have any issues. personally, i choose not to use them at all, but that's just a personal preference. if i had sold you a top end kit, you WOULD NOT have gotten their pushrods with it, i guarantee it. i feel bad for what your going through, but a thread TO indy and ABOUT indy, or to the dealers, isn't going to solve anything IMO. i hope you get it sorted out without any magor damage.
|
|
|
Re: Indy Dealers And Moderators.. ATTENTION !!!!!!!!!
#463478
09/08/09 11:20 PM
09/08/09 11:20 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,256
Salisbury North Carolina
8secDart
pro stock
|
pro stock
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,256
Salisbury North Carolina
|
Quote:
i understand your plight, but it's possoble in your case it's not all indy's fault. i don't mean any disrespect, but consider this for what it's worth.
many people attemp to build their own engines without having either the experience or expertise to see it through without having problems. in your case it sounds like you bought a kit that included the pushrods. now, before you assembled said pushrods, did you check the wall thickness? did you decide it was ample for YOUR application? who assembled and installed them? maybe you didn't know that an .080 pushrod was not good enough? this isn't a slam on you, but you have to take some blame on this one, dodn't you.
when in doubt, ask questions. i'm think (and i could be wrong} that you simply didn't know any better. if that's the case you wouldn't be the frst one. lots of people use their pushrods and don't have any issues. personally, i choose not to use them at all, but that's just a personal preference. if i had sold you a top end kit, you WOULD NOT have gotten their pushrods with it, i guarantee it. i feel bad for what your going through, but a thread TO indy and ABOUT indy, or to the dealers, isn't going to solve anything IMO. i hope you get it sorted out without any magor damage.
See that is the problem right there.It is always the other persons fault.The pushrods are junk........Heads that are sold ready to run and the guides are so damn tight that in 3 seconds of run time the exhaust valve is pinched.Must I go on?I do love their stuff but some people are sick of getting it in the rear.
Please take that $hit somewhere else.
|
|
|
Re: Indy Dealers And Moderators.. ATTENTION !!!!!!!!!
#463479
09/08/09 11:22 PM
09/08/09 11:22 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,416
Lake Charles,Louisiana
BILLYJAY
OP
pro stock
|
OP
pro stock
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,416
Lake Charles,Louisiana
|
This is what i'm talking about DRAM..you as a dealer of whatever products are pushing blame else where and not addressing my question or concern.... i as a consumer expect some level of help and advise with any purchase that invloves this type of HP or money...as i stated above.. if these heads are capable of producing 900+hp then one would think that there are some serious springs and cams involved..Right ??? you say you wouldn't sale these pushrods with a topend kit ... Why not ??? because you know they are inferior and not near what is needed to cover the range of these heads..Correct ???? thats what i'm asking..is that some people that has some input with indy speak up and out to them to address these issues..if i had known that these pushrods were not capable of handling what i was building then do you really think i would have bought them ??? i have spent 40K building my car and buying and using the best parts for my application.. why then would i be cheap on a set of pushrods?? i do have experience with engines but i am no master mechanic and dont think anyone would expect to buy quality products from a vendor and then get some cheap part to try to make it work.. knowing all the trouble they have had with these items alone, why wouldnt something be done..???? if you were saling a cheap and inferior product and kept getting call after call with issues. would you investigate ?? or close your ears to the problem and continue to sale crap to the people who not only rely on you for quality products but your help and knowledge with the very items that you sale...is that too much to ask ??? I DONT THINK SO.. *****************************************************************STEVE,,I'm Not looking for an engine builder to deal with ..what i want is for indy to back their products and correct and flaws or cheap parts with a quality product that people are always haning trouble with... your missing the point.. dealers will still have to make it right and get anther set from indy..i dont want ANOTHER set..i want a set that will handle the hp that they are making.. and the springs that we are using...thats all...
Last edited by BILLYJAY; 09/08/09 11:26 PM.
|
|
|
Re: Indy Dealers And Moderators.. ATTENTION !!!!!!!!!
[Re: BILLYJAY]
#463480
09/08/09 11:47 PM
09/08/09 11:47 PM
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
i know it's not what you want to hear, sorry.
your missing my point. it's not a matter of placing blame, i tried not to offend you, or anyone else. obviously i didn't succeed. unfortunately you didn't answer any of the questions i asked.
for a lot of people, .080 wall pushrods would be just fine. i don't like their pushrods, but people do use them successfully. they didn't work for you obviously, but why? please don't say "because they're junk". think it through and be honest about it.
i deal with aftermarket parts 16 hours a day, 6 days a week. anybody in my business can tell you stories about most any brand of part out there. the majority of them simply don't bolt on "out of the box", and most need something done to make them useable. if your running 750 lb springs, .080 wall pushrods won't get the job done. a lot of people might buy the same kit with lighter springs and have no issues at all. like it or not, the end user also has to accept some responsibilty for using the correct parts for the application. yes, they sold you a kit, did they install the springs on the heads and if so, at what pressure where they set up at? or, did someone else set up the heads? there's plenty of blame that can go to Indy for a lot of different reasons. i'm not sure this is ALL their fault simply because i don't know the answers to the questions i previously asked. shoot the messenger if you wish, but it's not personal, I'm simply asking questions and conveying my thoughts as someone that see's this stuff day in and day out.
mis- machined parts drive me, and guys in my profession absolutely looney tunes. i've been raked over the coals right here on Moparts numerous times for speaking my mind about some of them, and i'm sure it'll happen again in this thread because i'm not posting the ever popular, "lets bash Indy" response.
Last edited by DRAM_Perf_Only; 09/08/09 11:52 PM.
|
|
|
Re: Indy Dealers And Moderators.. ATTENTION !!!!!!!!!
[Re: 8secDart]
#463481
09/08/09 11:58 PM
09/08/09 11:58 PM
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Quote:
See that is the problem right there.It is always the other persons fault.The pushrods are junk........Heads that are sold ready to run and the guides are so damn tight that in 3 seconds of run time the exhaust valve is pinched.Must I go on?I do love their stuff but some people are sick of getting it in the rear.
Please take that $hit somewhere else.
as a "hot rod shop" you know that pretty much nothing is ready out of the box, especially cylinder heads, and that is regardless of brand. i deal with world, dart brodix, AFR, edelbrock and on and on. every head comes apart and gets inspected and corrected as needed. it's not like that issue is privy Only to Indy so please give me a break with your last comment.
|
|
|
Re: Indy Dealers And Moderators.. ATTENTION !!!!!!!!!
[Re: jamesc]
#463485
09/09/09 01:10 AM
09/09/09 01:10 AM
|
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
Monte_Smith
master
|
master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
|
Not siding with anybody here either, but just because the heads you bought are capable of making 900hp, does not mean everybody who buys those heads will be making that power. If you want to be an engine builder, you should know that .080 wall pushrods are not going to get it done at a 900hp level. I don't really see this as Indys fault, just because it was in the kit. Would it be their fault if you put more cam in, than their installed height would allow? The vast majority of these decisions fall to the engine builder, not the guys who make the parts. If Indy had done that motor in house, it would not have those pushrods in it. I am not at all defending Indy, because sometimes their customer service is lacking, but they do make good parts, if used properly.
I am not an INDY dealer, but I do use their parts at times. I have also used the kit pushrods and rockers, with absolutely zero issues, but i know the limitations of those parts. Sure, INDY could sell a kit with a high dollar set of Manton or Smith Brothers pushrods, but then, they would get bashed because their kit was $100 bucks more than somebody elses.
Monte
|
|
|
Re: Indy Dealers And Moderators.. ATTENTION !!!!!!!!!
[Re: B1Fish540]
#463486
09/09/09 01:11 AM
09/09/09 01:11 AM
|
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,424
Florida STAYcation
dOrk !
The village idiot's idiot
|
The village idiot's idiot
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,424
Florida STAYcation
|
Quote:
"Dont buy direct from them..go through a dealer".
And MY question would be ... WHY is Indy - or any HP parts vendor that has a Dealer or WD program - selling DIRECT to the consumer ?
|
|
|
Re: Indy Dealers And Moderators.. ATTENTION !!!!!!!!!
[Re: BILLYJAY]
#463487
09/09/09 01:20 AM
09/09/09 01:20 AM
|
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,949
land of 10,000______'s
BDS871Cuda
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,949
land of 10,000______'s
|
It's all about the money $$$$$. Indy is for making money. They know these kits are _____, but they put a package together that is not to much $$$$ to sell there big seller (Heads). All the other stuff they have to buy, and don't make as much money on. People get into some very high dollar stuff not knowing there is way more to be spent on top of your big investment. They could sell you just a set of heads and before you know it, bam!!!! you have $10 G's in them. But they would rather sell a bolt them on and go kit. It looks like a good deal untill you bolt them on and it goes south. It's all snake oil. Everything out there is made somehow someway to catch the eye. Indy does it very well with fancy adds, catchy magazine adds, the big tent at the races and carshows. They tell you over the phone that Edelbrock heads are junk because they want you to buy there heads to make more money. But, they know some people will not pay there crazy price for there heads, so to keep the customer, they offer Indybrocks and still make money, just not as much if you would of bought there EZ heads or whatever. Kits forsale!!! Get your kits here!!!! 
Snap your neck, mega G-force launch, is all I want!
|
|
|
Re: Indy Dealers And Moderators.. ATTENTION !!!!!!!!!
[Re: BDS871Cuda]
#463488
09/09/09 01:51 AM
09/09/09 01:51 AM
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 871
WA 98043
thecarfarmer
super stock
|
super stock
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 871
WA 98043
|
One thing I don't understand is why an Indy distributor would bother to respond on this thread. Not trying to be an A-hole (I don't have to try  ), but if I've already bought my Indy stuff elsewhere, and then run into problems, why should Dram, Fast68, BG, or any of the other reputable guys here go to bat for me? I bought three orders of parts from a lower-priced manufacturer who sponsors this board, without going thru a dealer. I had issues on all three orders. I figured it was between me and that company to get it all worked out. Luckily, they took care of the problem all three times - but it wouldn't have been the responsibility of anyone who sells their products to help make it right. As far as BILLYJAY's pushrod problem, yeah, I feel ya'. You don't want to know how many problems I've had with 'drop-in- type parts on my build... and it's just a Stealth-headed stock block street engine. Not to speak of all the 'going backwards' I did, learning that parts I'd bought wouldn't work with other parts I'd bought. I agree, I'd expect that a guy selling a top end kit would match pushrods to the springs installed on the heads. If I changed springs, then I'd expect that the durability of the pushrods would be in question. If not, then I'd feel I had a complaint if they weren't up to it. My comment to Indy is: remember, we can buy Brodix. Maybe that'd be a good thing if more of us did. I bet if the mopar enthusiasts all quit bending over for them, at some point, Indy's ownership would become much more responsive to customer satisfaction. Just my .02 -Bill
Seduce the attractive, and charm the rest.
******
489 C.I.D., roller cam, aftermarket heads, tunnel ram, stock '54 Dodge rear axle assembly: which of these doesn't belong?
|
|
|
Re: Indy Dealers And Moderators.. ATTENTION !!!!!!!!!
[Re: EchoSixMike]
#463490
09/09/09 03:54 AM
09/09/09 03:54 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,448
Phoenix, AZ
MoparBilly
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,448
Phoenix, AZ
|
I am always amazed by hot rodders who want products at the cheapest possible price, make the most HP, and are durable/ hassle free! Like the ole joke goes...Pick 2!!
When I first bought my Edelbrock RPM's, I took them to my machinist, and had them gone over, first thing he told me was the supplied springs tested really week. So, I ended up upgrading the springs and retainers before they were even bolted on.
I bought my 440-1's from a friend who had the kit on a shelf for a few years, when I picked it up he said, "Sorry, I can't find the pushrod kit yet". I said, "Quit looking, I wasn't going to use them". Likewise with the rockers, after watching my brother break nearly 2 sets 1 rocker at a time over a 3 year period, I knew mine would be sold as spares immediately.
Would Indy's kit be better if it came pre-packaged with T&D rockers and Smith Brothers pushrods?? Of course!!! Could they compete in the free market place against B-1's and Edelbrock, if they had a 5000$ entry level price point?? uh, probably not!!
I'm not saying you did anything wrong. I am saying with a little more research, you would've found that your expectations for the "as supplied" pushrods, and Indy's customer service, were unrealisticly high.
"Livin' in a powder keg and givin' off sparks"
4 Street cars, 5 Race engines
|
|
|
Re: Indy Dealers And Moderators.. ATTENTION !!!!!!!!!
#463491
09/09/09 07:02 AM
09/09/09 07:02 AM
|
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 428
wappinger falls new york
Jimi_Vignogna
mopar
|
mopar
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 428
wappinger falls new york
|
Quote:
for a lot of people, .080 wall pushrods would be just fine.
dram you build engines all the time i see you post about them when a new build is done, my question is do you install .080 wall pushrods in any thing you build? i won't use anything less than .120 even on a stock engine. and this is not to blast you im just wondering your opinion.
oh and by the way i will blast indy every chance i get after my hemi cylinder head fiasco with kenny and russ.i will not stop untill i at least get an apology on the roughly $8000.00 loss i took. those two are the most incapeable s.o.b's on the planet ! they screw up all the time and refuse to be accountable. someone like yourself that uses there product and sells alot of it should speak up about it to others and to them. maybe they will start to listen and get there minds straight.
|
|
|
Re: Indy Dealers And Moderators.. ATTENTION !!!!!!!!!
[Re: Steve1118]
#463493
09/09/09 08:04 AM
09/09/09 08:04 AM
|
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,209
Fredericktown, PA 15333
maundmotorworks
Stealth poster
|
Stealth poster
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,209
Fredericktown, PA 15333
|
Quote:
It's not necessary. You deal with the engine builder/dealer, and they are good and bad. Bob George is an Indy dealer and his integrity is absolutely beyond reproach. But, you call Flagle or Lazzari and all you will get is P.O.'d.
The fact is that their stuff is good...and guys run real fast with it. My advice is to find a good engine builder that has good relationships with them and let them handle it.
Steve, you are absolutely right. I am not an Indy distributor, but I am a builder and have built countless engines with Indy's product line, and I've never had a major problem with their stuff. Sure, you get a minor problem here or there, and anytime I've called Indy they've been nothing but professional and courteous to me. Maybe I'm the lucky one out of the bunch here, I don't know, but a very important fact remains. Nothing mass produced through the aftermarket is a direct bolt on. Anyone who thinks that it is or thousands of dollars makes it so watches too much Spike TV and reads too many Hot Rod magazines. When a part gives a person trouble, the builder or the manufacturer is always the first to get the blame or get bashed. And while there are certain cases where it is indeed justified, typically it is the owner/installer that is more defective than the part. And it's the person that doesn't want to admit they made a mistake or doesn't know what they thought they did, so instead they bash everyone else but themselves. I find it really odd that I've gone on other forums and talked to many customers and colleagues in my business and I don't see nearly the amount of bashing as I see here. I can't help but wonder why that is...  
Maund Motorworks--supplier of high performance Mopar engines--specializing in B, RB, and Hemi. www.maundmotorworks.com
|
|
|
Re: Indy Dealers And Moderators.. ATTENTION !!!!!!!!!
[Re: Jimi_Vignogna]
#463495
09/09/09 08:37 AM
09/09/09 08:37 AM
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Quote:
for a lot of people, .080 wall pushrods would be just fine.
dram you build engines all the time i see you post about them when a new build is done, my question is do you install .080 wall pushrods in any thing you build? i won't use anything less than .120 even on a stock engine. and this is not to blast you im just wondering your opinion.
oh and by the way i will blast indy every chance i get after my hemi cylinder head fiasco with kenny and russ.i will not stop untill i at least get an apology on the roughly $8000.00 loss i took. those two are the most incapeable s.o.b's on the planet ! they screw up all the time and refuse to be accountable. someone like yourself that uses there product and sells alot of it should speak up about it to others and to them. maybe they will start to listen and get there minds straight.
Jim,
i use plenty of .083 wall pushrods, especially in flat tappet combo's. i can't think of any roller combo where i'd use something that light though. just for the record, i seldom if ever post about combo's i'm working on or have finished any more. i don't think anybody really cares what we're building, or for whom we're building it.
i'm not going to hop aboard the Indy bashing train. over the years i've made suggestions not only to them, but to other manufacturers as well. beyond that, there's little i can do to effect any change in the way they run their businesses. Vic Edelbrock isn't going to start using better hardware on their heads simply because i don't like the cheap stamped 7 degree locks and retainers, nor will Brandon at 440source, simply because i, or anybody else doesn't like it. i'm sure a lot of their decisions are based on cost to manufactuer. to be competitive in any market isn't easy, especially now. adding expense to a product isn't what the majority of consumers wants. look, Edelbrock makes a pretty darn good product overall, but even as good as they are, plenty of people will go buy the cheaper knock-offs instead, even though those have their own set of problems and people know about them. you see where this is going, right?
unfortunately, we have here a do it yourselfer that possibly didn't have the foresight or experience to know that the "cut to fit" .080 wall pushrod kit supplied to him would not handle the pressure load he was about to place upon them. i don't see where blaming Indy for making the pushrod kits is the answer. like i said before, the builder has to assume some risk and responsibility for the parts he uses in any build, especially if he's buying direct from the manufacturer.
when i order custom pistons, or a custom camshaft etc. etc., i can't just tell them to send me "whatever will work". it doesn't work that way. we tell the manufacturer what we want and they supply it. when we get it, we inspect it to make sure it meets our needs. if it doesn't, we either send it back or modify it so it will.
BILLYJAY seems like a nice enough guy and i hate to see anybody have the type of problems he's having, but that's part of the risk you take when you want to buy direct and do it yourself. i don't think for a second that he tried to "cheap out". i just think he simply didn't know any better. if he did, he would have told Indy to keep their pushrod kit and ordered some from another vendor. in any case, i hope the damage isn't too severe and all ends well for him.
|
|
|
Re: Indy Dealers And Moderators.. ATTENTION !!!!!!!!!
[Re: BILLYJAY]
#463497
09/09/09 09:54 AM
09/09/09 09:54 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,841
S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,841
S.E. Michigan
|
It's times like these that make me glad I am a civilian/non mod again  I wish you the best of luck getting the issue resolved.
|
|
|
Re: Indy Dealers And Moderators.. ATTENTION !!!!!!!!!
[Re: B G Racing]
#463499
09/09/09 10:14 AM
09/09/09 10:14 AM
|
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 6,257
gulfport, ms, west mi
rowin4
master
|
master
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 6,257
gulfport, ms, west mi
|
Quote:
Our engine programs are centered exclusively with the use of Indy Cylinder Head products and related parts.We have been a WD since 1999.Our success is based on Indy blocks and heads.We custom build each and every engine to the needs of our customers with select parts compatable with the power levels desired.We rely on Indy for their products but we are responsible to our end users and make the necessary adjustments and corrections during the build.The misconception that some regard us as a "club" is a misrepresentation of BGR.We have and are available to help anyone who contacts us.We however,reserve the right to choose who we do work for.We generally work for and provide parts for other shops and hardcore racers that are known to us.That we are not a shop open to the walkin public gives us the advantage of doing specific quality work for specific quality clients.It also lets us control our shop time so that we can all enjoy the sport.The fact that we are out there racing with and helping many of you only goes to lend credence that we are not a bunch of BSers but are true genuine people that care about helping others.Many of you have visited our shop, many of you have raced with us,many of you understand what we are about,and know that we are here to help.We are not here to solicit business.And as for Indy,we have great respect for the owners and staff and are thankfull for the products that they provide.We enjoy a courtous and professional business relationship that will only end when BGR ceases to exist. 
What's wrong with this picture??????? must be related.
it's ok to butt heads, just don't do it with a butthead
|
|
|
Post deleted by Defbob
[Re: rowin4]
#463500
09/09/09 11:05 AM
09/09/09 11:05 AM
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
|
|
|
Re: Indy Dealers And Moderators.. ATTENTION !!!!!!!!!
#463501
09/09/09 11:11 AM
09/09/09 11:11 AM
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
did the name of this thread change, or am i imagining things?
|
|
|
Re: Indy Dealers And Moderators.. ATTENTION !!!!!!!!!
[Re: quick77rt ]
#463502
09/09/09 11:27 AM
09/09/09 11:27 AM
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,561
Downtown Roebuck Ont
Twostick
Still wishing...
|
Still wishing...
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,561
Downtown Roebuck Ont
|
Quote:
There bag of pushrods went in the dumpster, its too easy to call Smith Bros.
I think that is the OP's point. Why do they put together a kit that the only way to correct it (and most of us know that 99% of all aftermarket stuff needs some kind of correction)is to throw half of it out and pay someone else more $$ for the same parts that will work.
Now if the OP replaced the springs that came with the heads with some kind of 900 lb open then obviously it's not Indy's fault but from what I'm reading here from others is these pushrods won't even support the head as shipped. As far as I'm concerned if that is true it is negligence on Indy's part at the very least leaning more towards fraud.
Kevin
|
|
|
Re: Indy Dealers And Moderators.. ATTENTION !!!!!!!!!
#463503
09/09/09 11:31 AM
09/09/09 11:31 AM
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
moper
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
|
I'm no pro. I don't see DRAM taking any side except stating potential ignorance... And sayign any manufacturer has to make sure all the parts sold will stand up to the upper limits of the potential is very demonstrative of that ignorance. The reason someone spends witha builder is to have someone who can be reasponsible and trustworthy enough to get the results you want for the money spent. Whether that's $100 or $10K. If you cook out and burn a steak at home, it's your meat, your methods, and your flame. Dine out and you can get your money's worth and make it the cook's fault for a few bucks more because maybe, just maybe, the cook knows more and is more attentive to it.
Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
|
|
|
Re: Indy Dealers And Moderators.. ATTENTION !!!!!!!!!
[Re: Hemiroid]
#463506
09/09/09 12:53 PM
09/09/09 12:53 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
B G Racing
master
|
master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
|
Quote:
I love all of the deflection and semantics. Let's be honest people, everyone of you defending Indy knows those push rods and rockers are trash in a race motor.
Sure, they'll live with a .509 purple cam, but no one is buying these heads to do that. If you as a manufacturer are providing push rods and rockers with your aluminum race head that you know won't live in a motor with any kind of race spring then you should have the decency to let your customers know.
I, as a consumer that's informed know not to use those parts, but not everyone knows this. You should look upon your customers as patrons and supporters of your business, not as potential marks for a scam.
Your mileage may vary.
No deflection or semantics on my part,just hard facts as related to Indy and BGR.I'am not defending anyone,I don't need to.Everyone at Indy are big boys and can speak for themselves and those that have issues and opinions can freely express them as well.That's what makes the USA such a great place to live.That I use Indy products is my choise and that our racers use Indy products is their chiose.That I had a bad steak at the LaMont Restraunt in Mt Washinton overlooking the three rivers in Pittsburgh isn't going to hurt their business anytime soon.I waited two weeks for a reservation.Next time I'am getting prime rib.People have the choise weather to deal with Indy or not,and obviously many still choose to do so as they do with Barry Grant and scores of other manufactures that we all hear complanits about. Where's the deflection or semantics in my statements?  
|
|
|
Re: Indy Dealers And Moderators.. ATTENTION !!!!!!!!!
[Re: Hemiroid]
#463508
09/09/09 01:53 PM
09/09/09 01:53 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
B G Racing
master
|
master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
|
Quote:
Damn you Bob!!   It wasn't directed at you, you old fart. Did you see me quote you? Plus, you should be out in the shop cracking the whip, not on Moparts  
I was really talking about those trying to blame Billy for Indys crappy push rods. We all know they're crappy, Billy just missed the memo. I don't blame him for being mad.
 I just had to respond to all those "big words"I have no problem with anyone complaining or sharing their problems,generally it helps keep everyone informed.We found problems with all sorts of pushrods.Cups breaking,tubes splitting and flexing.We have learned that building pushrod is an exacting art.We cut them close to desired length then finish them on the lathe to exact measurment.We check the cup pin for fit and ream the inside of the tube if necessary. We slightly champher the end of the tube inside diameter.We have a aluminum pushrod press with radiused end holders and tube holders for various lengths and diameters as well as a aluminum top plate for cup pushrods and radius top plate for ball&ball pudrods.The trick is to get a nice press fit and seat the ends squarely in the tube.We then inspect for straightness and fit. 
|
|
|
Re: Indy Dealers And Moderators.. ATTENTION !!!!!!!!!
[Re: B G Racing]
#463510
09/09/09 02:55 PM
09/09/09 02:55 PM
|
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,209
Fredericktown, PA 15333
maundmotorworks
Stealth poster
|
Stealth poster
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,209
Fredericktown, PA 15333
|
Quote:
Quote:
Damn you Bob!! It wasn't directed at you, you old fart. Did you see me quote you? Plus, you should be out in the shop cracking the whip, not on Moparts
I was really talking about those trying to blame Billy for Indys crappy push rods. We all know they're crappy, Billy just missed the memo. I don't blame him for being mad.
I just had to respond to all those "big words"I have no problem with anyone complaining or sharing their problems,generally it helps keep everyone informed.We found problems with all sorts of pushrods.Cups breaking,tubes splitting and flexing.We have learned that building pushrod is an exacting art.We cut them close to desired length then finish them on the lathe to exact measurment.We check the cup pin for fit and ream the inside of the tube if necessary. We slightly champher the end of the tube inside diameter.We have a aluminum pushrod press with radiused end holders and tube holders for various lengths and diameters as well as a aluminum top plate for cup pushrods and radius top plate for ball&ball pudrods.The trick is to get a nice press fit and seat the ends squarely in the tube.We then inspect for straightness and fit.
This is true and the only right way to assemble these pushrods. Bob has cut and assembled thousands of these pushrods over the years and I can honestly say I've only ever had one bad one. Bob cuts each pushrod tube in a lathe to ensure proper clearances and fitment. Some guys out there use saws and cutoff wheels for this task and it's no wonder theirs screw up. For those here unfamiliar with BG, you need to get familiar real quick. He is the only engine guy I trust besides myself because he has forgotten more than most engine guys ever knew, not to mention he's been at it for over 40 years. Listen to your elders here, guys...
Maund Motorworks--supplier of high performance Mopar engines--specializing in B, RB, and Hemi. www.maundmotorworks.com
|
|
|
Re: Indy Dealers And Moderators.. ATTENTION !!!!!!!!!
[Re: maundmotorworks]
#463511
09/09/09 03:04 PM
09/09/09 03:04 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
B G Racing
master
|
master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Damn you Bob!! It wasn't directed at you, you old fart. Did you see me quote you? Plus, you should be out in the shop cracking the whip, not on Moparts
I was really talking about those trying to blame Billy for Indys crappy push rods. We all know they're crappy, Billy just missed the memo. I don't blame him for being mad.
I just had to respond to all those "big words"I have no problem with anyone complaining or sharing their problems,generally it helps keep everyone informed.We found problems with all sorts of pushrods.Cups breaking,tubes splitting and flexing.We have learned that building pushrod is an exacting art.We cut them close to desired length then finish them on the lathe to exact measurment.We check the cup pin for fit and ream the inside of the tube if necessary. We slightly champher the end of the tube inside diameter.We have a aluminum pushrod press with radiused end holders and tube holders for various lengths and diameters as well as a aluminum top plate for cup pushrods and radius top plate for ball&ball pudrods.The trick is to get a nice press fit and seat the ends squarely in the tube.We then inspect for straightness and fit.
This is true and the only right way to assemble these pushrods. Bob has cut and assembled thousands of these pushrods over the years and I can honestly say I've only ever had one bad one. Bob cuts each pushrod tube in a lathe to ensure proper clearances and fitment. Some guys out there use saws and cutoff wheels for this task and it's no wonder theirs screw up. For those here unfamiliar with BG, you need to get familiar real quick. He is the only engine guy I trust besides myself because he has forgotten more than most engine guys ever knew, not to mention he's been at it for over 40 years. Listen to your elders here, guys...
Gee Matt,save your breath,my daughter Lynne is already married. However she may be persuaded to step out on her hubby If not Thelma and Loiuse like to get out every now and then.
|
|
|
Re: Indy Dealers And Moderators.. ATTENTION !!!!!!!!!
[Re: B G Racing]
#463513
09/09/09 03:33 PM
09/09/09 03:33 PM
|
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,209
Fredericktown, PA 15333
maundmotorworks
Stealth poster
|
Stealth poster
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,209
Fredericktown, PA 15333
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Damn you Bob!! It wasn't directed at you, you old fart. Did you see me quote you? Plus, you should be out in the shop cracking the whip, not on Moparts
I was really talking about those trying to blame Billy for Indys crappy push rods. We all know they're crappy, Billy just missed the memo. I don't blame him for being mad.
I just had to respond to all those "big words"I have no problem with anyone complaining or sharing their problems,generally it helps keep everyone informed.We found problems with all sorts of pushrods.Cups breaking,tubes splitting and flexing.We have learned that building pushrod is an exacting art.We cut them close to desired length then finish them on the lathe to exact measurment.We check the cup pin for fit and ream the inside of the tube if necessary. We slightly champher the end of the tube inside diameter.We have a aluminum pushrod press with radiused end holders and tube holders for various lengths and diameters as well as a aluminum top plate for cup pushrods and radius top plate for ball&ball pudrods.The trick is to get a nice press fit and seat the ends squarely in the tube.We then inspect for straightness and fit.
This is true and the only right way to assemble these pushrods. Bob has cut and assembled thousands of these pushrods over the years and I can honestly say I've only ever had one bad one. Bob cuts each pushrod tube in a lathe to ensure proper clearances and fitment. Some guys out there use saws and cutoff wheels for this task and it's no wonder theirs screw up. For those here unfamiliar with BG, you need to get familiar real quick. He is the only engine guy I trust besides myself because he has forgotten more than most engine guys ever knew, not to mention he's been at it for over 40 years. Listen to your elders here, guys...
Gee Matt,save your breath,my daughter Lynne is already married. However she may be persuaded to step out on her hubby If not Thelma and Loiuse like to get out every now and then.
LOL!!! Bob, thanks for the thought, but if I took the dogs, HemiFred would be both jealous and lonely...
Maund Motorworks--supplier of high performance Mopar engines--specializing in B, RB, and Hemi. www.maundmotorworks.com
|
|
|
Re: Indy Dealers And Moderators.. ATTENTION !!!!!!!!!
[Re: B G Racing]
#463514
09/09/09 03:56 PM
09/09/09 03:56 PM
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,128
Salt Lake City
camastomcat
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,128
Salt Lake City
|
Well, I had to comment on the Indy thing. I, like many, have had occasion to deal with the fine folks from Indy. And also have seen people, and I'm not saying this is the case, be able to break a ball bearing with a marshmellow. And that goes for me too. This sport is for people that like to tinker, or we wouldn't be doing it. It's about putting stuff together and seeing the results of their labor. I admit that these days I pay people to assemble my stuff, because, I can afford to do that now. But in the past, I did that myself. And I agree the people at Indy are A-holes when called for advise or customer service. So, why do people keep using them????? Koffel is as nice a guy as they come. I'm not saying he is perfect, but he will talk with you and try to come up with solutions. And the truth is, B1's are just a better head, unless you want to run the NRC stuff. I guess what I am saying is, people in the racing business have put up with this crap for 50 years and longer. And we as racers run to it like flys to a flame. It's true Indy shouldn't sell a head rated to 900HP with a pushrod rated for 500HP. But those of us that have been doing this stuff long enough realize we better ask the question 5 times or reap the consequenses. And yeah Indy is full-o-sht. So, talk with a distributor, or use someone elses stuff. I also want to say I don't like that the racing business is this way, but we all accept it and keep doing it. Sorry about your issue with the pushrods. 
|
|
|
Re: Indy Dealers And Moderators.. ATTENTION !!!!!!!!!
[Re: 8secDart]
#463516
09/09/09 04:38 PM
09/09/09 04:38 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,293
Rock Springs
Bob_Coomer
master
|
master
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,293
Rock Springs
|
They sell these kits with there rockers, and push rods to give you a warm feeling on a complete package. We know that the rocker arms are in adequate for roller spring pressures, we now know the push rods are too. I knew this, some do some dont. I agree they wouldnt put these push rods in there crate engines, or personal engines. Thats why the list T&D and Jesel Upgrades on the price sheet, Im pretty sure they list uograded push rods also. Push rods doesnt seem to be a hot topic, on here. On the other hand Comp pushrods and other brands seem to work ok with .080 wall, but... Lets look more that the push rod them selfs for a minute, and stop pointing fingers. These Indy head RB engines are the longest of long push rods. What works in a 9" tall deck small chevy or ford, doesnt always work in Mopar engines when overall push rods length reaches 10" over all. Im sure push rod deflection will be a bunch more on the same push rod given a extra few inches in length. 
[color:"red"]65 Hemi Belvedere coming soon [/color]
[color:"#00FF00"]557" Indy engine 1.07 60ft 144mph in the 8th 2100 lbs package [/color]
|
|
|
Post deleted by Defbob
[Re: viperblue72]
#463517
09/09/09 04:44 PM
09/09/09 04:44 PM
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
|
|
|
Re: Indy Dealers And Moderators.. ATTENTION !!!!!!!!!
[Re: B G Racing]
#463521
09/09/09 05:54 PM
09/09/09 05:54 PM
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
I have heard a lot of folks complain about Indy parts and service and I have to wonder why . They are the ones that made it possible to build a 800+ HP wedge. It is mandontory however to machine and fit the parts corectly. There is no way anyone should expect to just bolt a motor of that horsepower with off the shelf parts.. Indy pushrods were designed to work with many different combos with one standard "cut to fit" kit that comes in there top end motor package. Do you realize how many different lengths they would need to stock to fill everyones needs?? I am sure that if you bought a complete motor from them over 528cu.in. it would not have cut to fit Indy pushrods in it. It sounds like you may have other issues causing the pushrods to break... Indy products make Mopar racers much more competive..
|
|
|
Re: Indy Dealers And Moderators.. ATTENTION !!!!!!!!!
#463522
09/09/09 06:10 PM
09/09/09 06:10 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,101
Yes
sixpakdodge
master
|
master
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,101
Yes
|
Quote:
They are the ones that made it possible to build a 800+ HP wedge.
Did you forget about Koffel's Place? The B-1's were around before Indy.
|
|
|
Re: Indy Dealers And Moderators.. ATTENTION !!!!!!!!!
[Re: camastomcat]
#463524
09/09/09 07:56 PM
09/09/09 07:56 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,416
Lake Charles,Louisiana
BILLYJAY
OP
pro stock
|
OP
pro stock
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,416
Lake Charles,Louisiana
|
Every one of you Dealers and engine builders would inform,advise or steer me in the correct direction with my build as a decent vendor or even a decent mopar man..if i was on the phone with you and was building a 572ci Indy maxx motor with 440-1 CNC"d- 14CR and was sending you my "KIT PUSHROD" to cut to length, you would cut them ?? or would you inquire and raise the point that maybe these are not going to live in that type of motor ??? All I'm asking is that someone who creates and sells a great head would want to fix, modify, solve any problems or weak areas in the product line...thats not to much to ask..if these guys are so good at what they do, why drop the ball if there is a area that needs improvement... ELDEBROCK heads at least say spring ratings are only good to .600 lift.but at least they are up front and address the limits of their springs. those guys at Indy are too arrogrant for their own good..you vendors that deal with them and say you get quality service, thats great!!!.. what im saying is if you put as much effort towards Indy and making some sugestions to them as you do defending them or their business practices maybe they would make some small changes in the product line or at least make notes that buyers are able to see,read and know about.. calling me ignorant is not the problem..having someone from Indy address some of the issues that seems to haunt this website..reading post from the little guys that helped to get them those nice new houses and cars.. would be something i would be interested in doing as a business owner..knowing the direction of my business would be important to me... as i would think would be to everyone..
|
|
|
Re: Indy Dealers And Moderators.. ATTENTION !!!!!!!!!
[Re: BILLYJAY]
#463525
09/09/09 09:53 PM
09/09/09 09:53 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
|
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
|
Quote:
Every one of you Dealers and engine builders would inform,advise or steer me in the correct direction with my build as a decent vendor or even a decent mopar man..if i was on the phone with you and was building a 572ci Indy maxx motor with 440-1 CNC"d- 14CR and was sending you my "KIT PUSHROD" to cut to length, you would cut them ?? or would you inquire and raise the point that maybe these are not going to live in that type of motor ??? All I'm asking is that someone who creates and sells a great head would want to fix, modify, solve any problems or weak areas in the product line...thats not to much to ask..if these guys are so good at what they do, why drop the ball if there is a area that needs improvement... ELDEBROCK heads at least say spring ratings are only good to .600 lift.but at least they are up front and address the limits of their springs. those guys at Indy are too arrogrant for their own good..you vendors that deal with them and say you get quality service, thats great!!!.. what im saying is if you put as much effort towards Indy and making some sugestions to them as you do defending them or their business practices maybe they would make some small changes in the product line or at least make notes that buyers are able to see,read and know about.. calling me ignorant is not the problem..having someone from Indy address some of the issues that seems to haunt this website..reading post from the little guys that helped to get them those nice new houses and cars.. would be something i would be interested in doing as a business owner..knowing the direction of my business would be important to me... as i would think would be to everyone..
And I say you are repeating yourself for the third? time, and if directed at Dram, he was very forthcoming and delicate in his prompt and candid reply, and likely decided this thread is a lost cause and butted out, and I think that was a wise decision that I am going to emulate.
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
|
|
|
Re: Indy Dealers And Moderators.. ATTENTION !!!!!!!!!
[Re: jcc]
#463526
09/09/09 10:35 PM
09/09/09 10:35 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,416
Lake Charles,Louisiana
BILLYJAY
OP
pro stock
|
OP
pro stock
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,416
Lake Charles,Louisiana
|
And I say you are repeating yourself for the third? time, and if directed at Dram, he was very forthcoming and delicate in his prompt and candid reply, and likely decided this thread is a lost cause and butted out, and I think that was a wise decision that I am going to emulate.
JCC.. thats probally best for you to copy-cat someone else and chim out...my comments werent directed at Dram per say.. he was the one who chimed in on Indy's behalf assuming that i had done something wrong or didnt know all info needed to build a motor of this quality..and voiced his opinion..which he is entitled to.. as are you.. as am I..i did have help building this motor and some very good help at that.some of you guys are missing the point and think this is all about bashing Indy... i have said many time in these Indy threads that i do like their products for the most part.. the problem is why wont they take time to correct the issues that they do have instaed of treating their customers like Crap..if they dont want to deal with the public then they need to close their doors to the "walk-in JOE" and only sale to Vendors...and since the vendors seem to get a better responce it makes sence that maybe someone would listen to them before they are going to listen to the guys that they are so short with on the phones...
Last edited by BILLYJAY; 09/09/09 10:37 PM.
|
|
|
Re: Indy Dealers And Moderators.. ATTENTION !!!!!!!!!
[Re: BILLYJAY]
#463527
09/09/09 11:09 PM
09/09/09 11:09 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,406
Diego-Town, CA
Diego_Ted
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,406
Diego-Town, CA
|
I don't think this thread is going to address any issue that has not been discussed. Here is my take . For the most part, Indy for whatever reason feels it does what it needs to do in order to stay in business. Many reputable vendors on here have said, deal with them and let them deal with Indy, as they have better business to business dealings with them. Anyone who has been on this board for any length of time knows it is a crap shoot to deal directly with Indy and does so knowing their customer service to the general public leaves much to be desired. So take the advise of many on here and deal with a reputable vendor who deals with Indy on a regular business. In doing so the vendor has a vested interest to get it right the first time and knows of problems that have come up in the past and maybe has a way of avoiding them. If you choose to deal directly with Indy you know there are issues you may have to address and will probably have to spend a good deal of time to rectify the situation. That’s just the way Indy chooses to do business, and it seems it works for them? If anyone else has a point that has not yet been addressed on this thread I will gladly unlock it so that point can be made. Diego
|
|
|
|
|
