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Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP
[Re: B1CUDA]
#444101
08/22/09 10:41 PM
08/22/09 10:41 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,448
Phoenix, AZ
MoparBilly
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,448
Phoenix, AZ
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Quote:
P.S. Want to go in the 8's real quick? My pro stock hemi can be had for "just a little" more than a B-1 set-up. 
Ted,
For what you'd spend on one of those high rpm, no torque primadonnas, You can build 4 Eddie Rpm headed, solid cammed 440s, spray and play all you want, go 8's with ease, and maybe hafta change oil and plugs about as often as Chris and Al change valvesprings.
Sure wished I could follow my own advice, and I wouldn't be sitting here screwing together a -1 headed 517 stockblock combo that I spent more on valvetrain and camshaft parts than I did on the whole topend of my Edelbrock 440.
"Livin' in a powder keg and givin' off sparks"
4 Street cars, 5 Race engines
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Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP
[Re: Hemiroid]
#444102
08/22/09 11:28 PM
08/22/09 11:28 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
World had their aluminum blocks on sale recently for $3,995 
it seems a lot of people had issues with those "discounted" blocks.
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Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP
#444103
08/23/09 04:06 AM
08/23/09 04:06 AM
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 435
New Mexico
Scott440
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 435
New Mexico
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not one but several questions in the original post, so it should be dissected.
what max hp a b1 head can support? here head mfrs tend to quote the max hp a person could reasonably attain without power-adders... let's see, edelbrock victor heads have supported over 1,200 hp, so an orig. b1 can do at least that...assume you pump the engine hard enough with crazy power adding (eg. turbos/gas/etc.)
so then the bottleneck isn't your head flow capacity, but other components. if your engine is oem, not race, and we asked the engineers who designed them about max power w/filler, main caps, etc. i believe they'd estimate 700-800hp, which btw the way is fine because an oem-based trans and differential probably isn't ready for 1200 anyway.
take it to 750 and call it a day. the engine masters contests show this level attained by oem big blocks all the time.
as for the people who insist on racing blocks, consider this person may already have the 400 short block assembled. he may not be able to transfer the internals himself. by the time he saves the money, buys the block, pays to transfer parts, sort it out, he might be forced to shift his financial resources to something non-car related...so yeah, cost matters.
if he pays 3000 for a racing block, he might as well boost the crap out of it to get his money's worth w/1800hp, then he'll need a $800 fuel delivery system(!) but his drivetrain wouldn't handle it, so he "might as well" get a nhra top fuel drivetrain for $20,000, add in safety gear and wait months for a shop to finish the car. the "might as well" logic is a slippery slope.
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Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP
[Re: MoparBilly]
#444104
08/23/09 08:23 AM
08/23/09 08:23 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,999
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,999
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
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Quote:
Quote:
P.S. Want to go in the 8's real quick? My pro stock hemi can be had for "just a little" more than a B-1 set-up.
Ted,
For what you'd spend on one of those high rpm, no torque primadonnas, You can build 4 Eddie Rpm headed, solid cammed 440s, spray and play all you want, go 8's with ease, and maybe hafta change oil and plugs about as often as Chris and Al change valvesprings.
Sure wished I could follow my own advice, and I wouldn't be sitting here screwing together a -1 headed 517 stockblock combo that I spent more on valvetrain and camshaft parts than I did on the whole topend of my Edelbrock 440.
Sounds like an addiction to speed to me!
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#444106
08/23/09 11:50 AM
08/23/09 11:50 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,293
Rock Springs
Bob_Coomer
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,293
Rock Springs
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like some one else said. At the 900hp (easier said than done) or (before in my case) most hit a wall on hp limit with a good effort Indy stuff.. if one built the same "good effort" engine using the B1 Original heads (not even M1MC's) One would expect to accomplish at least top hp in Indy's case and more. And just because this "guy" or "that guy" makes great B1 power and making stock blocks live a happy life doesnt mean anyone can throw a engine together and do the same. Its hard to act surprised or be upset when during the first season, it splits a cylinder wall or cracks the main webbing and thrashes the whole engine.  
[color:"red"]65 Hemi Belvedere coming soon [/color]
[color:"#00FF00"]557" Indy engine 1.07 60ft 144mph in the 8th 2100 lbs package [/color]
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Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP
[Re: MoparBilly]
#444107
08/23/09 12:40 PM
08/23/09 12:40 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,624
Orange County, Ca.
B1CUDA
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,624
Orange County, Ca.
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Quote:
Quote:
P.S. Want to go in the 8's real quick? My pro stock hemi can be had for "just a little" more than a B-1 set-up.
Ted,
For what you'd spend on one of those high rpm, no torque primadonnas, You can build 4 Eddie Rpm headed, solid cammed 440s, spray and play all you want, go 8's with ease, and maybe hafta change oil and plugs about as often as Chris and Al change valvesprings.
Sure wished I could follow my own advice, and I wouldn't be sitting here screwing together a -1 headed 517 stockblock combo that I spent more on valvetrain and camshaft parts than I did on the whole topend of my Edelbrock 440.
"No torque primadonna", that's funny. I guess I have it all wrong, by using the very best Mopar engine available, with less torque, and more horsepower on a true 10.5 slick??
It's all good, I am in a position to play with this motor, but, have had bunches of B-1, 400 block combo's, before I could afford a KB block. Soooooooo, I thought I would throw in my , to try to share some of my experience with Ted. I will now go back into my cave........ 
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Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP
[Re: B1CUDA]
#444108
08/23/09 12:59 PM
08/23/09 12:59 PM
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Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 705
Michigan
Hemiroid
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 705
Michigan
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
P.S. Want to go in the 8's real quick? My pro stock hemi can be had for "just a little" more than a B-1 set-up.
Ted,
For what you'd spend on one of those high rpm, no torque primadonnas, You can build 4 Eddie Rpm headed, solid cammed 440s, spray and play all you want, go 8's with ease, and maybe hafta change oil and plugs about as often as Chris and Al change valvesprings.
Sure wished I could follow my own advice, and I wouldn't be sitting here screwing together a -1 headed 517 stockblock combo that I spent more on valvetrain and camshaft parts than I did on the whole topend of my Edelbrock 440.
"No torque primadonna", that's funny. I guess I have it all wrong, by using the very best Mopar engine available, with less torque, and more horsepower on a true 10.5 slick??
It's all good, I am in a position to play with this motor, but, have had bunches of B-1, 400 block combo's, before I could afford a KB block. Soooooooo, I thought I would throw in my , to try to share some of my experience with Ted. I will now go back into my cave........
As a fan of no torque primadonna's  I was wondering what's been happening lately Chris? Done any racing, made any changes/improvements? Inquiring minds want to know 
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Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP
[Re: Hemiroid]
#444109
08/23/09 01:18 PM
08/23/09 01:18 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,624
Orange County, Ca.
B1CUDA
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,624
Orange County, Ca.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
P.S. Want to go in the 8's real quick? My pro stock hemi can be had for "just a little" more than a B-1 set-up.
Ted,
For what you'd spend on one of those high rpm, no torque primadonnas, You can build 4 Eddie Rpm headed, solid cammed 440s, spray and play all you want, go 8's with ease, and maybe hafta change oil and plugs about as often as Chris and Al change valvesprings.
Sure wished I could follow my own advice, and I wouldn't be sitting here screwing together a -1 headed 517 stockblock combo that I spent more on valvetrain and camshaft parts than I did on the whole topend of my Edelbrock 440.
"No torque primadonna", that's funny. I guess I have it all wrong, by using the very best Mopar engine available, with less torque, and more horsepower on a true 10.5 slick??
It's all good, I am in a position to play with this motor, but, have had bunches of B-1, 400 block combo's, before I could afford a KB block. Soooooooo, I thought I would throw in my , to try to share some of my experience with Ted. I will now go back into my cave........
As a fan of no torque primadonna's I was wondering what's been happening lately Chris? Done any racing, made any changes/improvements? Inquiring minds want to know
Thanks for asking. We certainly had some issues the first few times we took the car out (and it still went 161 mph, all messed up ), but, to answer your question, yes, we are making some changes that will basically take the motor from being a "Mule" dyno test motor, to having all of the current bells & whistles. The previous issues were actually minor, however, these pro stockers are VERY, VERY finnicky motors.(Kinda like an emotional woman) I will have the car back out, next month, with the updated primadonna. (Sorry, I am just digging that statement) 
Sorry, Ted, back to your topic.....
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Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP
[Re: Diego_Ted]
#444112
08/23/09 04:04 PM
08/23/09 04:04 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,925
NC
440Jim
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,925
NC
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Lots of good info posted (and some bench racing, and bickering).
IMO, if you keep it to 800 hp and stay away from the nitrous it will last a reasonable amount of time. But you have to find a block with good cylinders and change the main caps, and a girdle would fit your needs. A 511 CID is all you need (4.250" stroke, 4.375" bore).
But I can't argue with the benefit of spending $1000 more and having a World Products (MP) block.
$ 250 a good sonic checked 400 block (might cost more to find 1 of 7)
$ 400 normal machine work (bore, hone, deck, clean, etc).
$ 375 Aluminum main caps
$ 400 Machine and fit main caps
$ 200 ? Girdle
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$1625
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Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP
[Re: Bob_Coomer]
#444113
08/23/09 04:17 PM
08/23/09 04:17 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,448
Phoenix, AZ
MoparBilly
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,448
Phoenix, AZ
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Quote:
like some one else said.
At the 900hp (easier said than done) or (before in my case) most hit a wall on hp limit with a good effort Indy stuff..
if one built the same "good effort" engine using the B1 Original heads (not even M1MC's) One would expect to accomplish at least top hp in Indy's case and more.
And just because this "guy" or "that guy" makes great B1 power and making stock blocks live a happy life doesnt mean anyone can throw a engine together and do the same.
Its hard to act surprised or be upset when during the first season, it splits a cylinder wall or cracks the main webbing and thrashes the whole engine.
Very good post, I think the combo used, cam timing, and state of tune would all have to be considered carefully to avoid beating the block up prematurely.
Quote:
Billy come on who you fooling. You were not happy spraying and running 8.90's in your old bullet and want more for the new one. I am sure you will get it and be happy with the mid 8's on the bottle with the new bullet as well as the added MPH in S/ST
Ok, Al...
Ya got me...I was trying the lie out on someone else before I tried to convince myself, but you and Greg shot that down pretty quick!! Not that I want to go much further in the 8's, but 129-131 in SST is quickly becoming a rough place to be!!
Quote:
"No torque primadonna", that's funny. I guess I have it all wrong, by using the very best Mopar engine available, with less torque, and more horsepower on a true 10.5 slick??
It's all good, I am in a position to play with this motor, but, have had bunches of B-1, 400 block combo's, before I could afford a KB block. Soooooooo, I thought I would throw in my , to try to share some of my experience with Ted.
Thanks Chris,
I thought I was out of practice, but I see I can still push the right buttons on occasion! I absolutely understand your decisions, and appreciate the effort to build a competitive peice, and share your experiences on the board. If that shot was a little low, I promise I'll aim higher next time.
Quote:
Does primadonna mean we are high maintenance?
"Sensitive", perhaps?
"Livin' in a powder keg and givin' off sparks"
4 Street cars, 5 Race engines
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Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP
[Re: 440Jim]
#444115
08/23/09 07:54 PM
08/23/09 07:54 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,363
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,363
Las Vegas
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Hey I wanna borrow it and see what it can run in S/ST trim Billy,You need to get that thing built and get back out there. Sensitive, we both know that aint true I have no idea where anyone needs to be in this .90 stuff. I chose S/ST for a few reasons, most importatnly were the people I have met who run in the class. Yes my car is on the faster side for the class but I amnot sold it is a big advangtage. I have lost more rounds than i car to admit to 118-122mph cars. Just as hard for me to judge it as they are. One thing I have learned being the faster car is it forces the slower guys to dial hard and honest not holding any. That piece of info has been very helpful so far. As for the engine. IMO Ted needs to do what makes Ted comfortable. Jim threw up some numbers and I am sure for his area are accurate, machine shop wise. But here is what I come up with for parts, dkirect for the companies websites. Main Caps $350 CRE Girdle $450 From BCR(both) $799 Block filler $80 So at the best you have $800 in parts plus another $80 for the hardblock to do a tall fill. So we are inching in on $900 for parts. The using Jims numbers we have $1050+- for the block and machine work, around here you are looking at closer to $1500+ for that same work work, still assuming a $250 block. At any rate using the numbers I see $1950+ for a stock block deal. So you decide if that is an economical way to go..Oh yeah we have done nothing to correct lifter angles, or improve the oiling system. just trying to show that possibly the "savings" everyone is talking about with a stock block are not as big as some think...
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP
[Re: 440Jim]
#444116
08/23/09 08:02 PM
08/23/09 08:02 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,293
Rock Springs
Bob_Coomer
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,293
Rock Springs
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Quote:
Lots of good info posted (and some bench racing, and bickering).
IMO, if you keep it to 800 hp and stay away from the nitrous it will last a reasonable amount of time. But you have to find a block with good cylinders and change the main caps, and a girdle would fit your needs. A 511 CID is all you need (4.250" stroke, 4.375" bore).
But I can't argue with the benefit of spending $1000 more and having a World Products (MP) block.
$ 250 a good sonic checked 400 block (might cost more to find 1 of 7)
$ 400 normal machine work (bore, hone, deck, clean, etc).
$ 375 Aluminum main caps
$ 400 Machine and fit main caps
$ 200 ? Girdle
-----
$1625
Caps and Girdle from BCR is $800+ shipping. 
440 Source Girdle is $279 Which include bolts.
So lets do some Math..
Say you locate a good "230" Block and get it for a steal at $200.
So..
-$200 Block
-$800BCR main girdle cap package
-$1625 for basic machine work as Jim Posted.
-$90 for Hard Block
-Say you have another $150 for additional labor, cam bearings installed, mag'n, stroker clearance, hard block filling etc
Now we have $2865 in this near 40 year old block.
Even if you had the block, and didnt inquire additional labor.
Thats still over $2500..
It doesnt make sense to have this money in a stock block, only to have it split a cylinder 3 seasons down the road and trash the whole engine..
IMO Girdle's, aluminum main caps, nor hard block seem to keep a block from splitting cylinders. I know this as pure fact not speculation. 
[color:"red"]65 Hemi Belvedere coming soon [/color]
[color:"#00FF00"]557" Indy engine 1.07 60ft 144mph in the 8th 2100 lbs package [/color]
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Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#444117
08/23/09 08:03 PM
08/23/09 08:03 PM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 13,189
aZLiViN
J_BODY
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 13,189
aZLiViN
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...so is it safe to assume that the extra lbs for the steel world block (300lb) is a mute point vs the stock block at 700hp and up? guess I should have proofread that one! sorry!!
Last edited by J_BODY; 08/23/09 08:45 PM.
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Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP
[Re: J_BODY]
#444118
08/23/09 08:26 PM
08/23/09 08:26 PM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,295
U.S.
moparniac
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,295
U.S.
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Who has the best deal on ieon race blocks (RB)
Mopar Performance
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Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP
[Re: J_BODY]
#444119
08/23/09 08:30 PM
08/23/09 08:30 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,402
State of Corruption
camdog440
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,402
State of Corruption
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Quote:
...so is it safe to assume that the 300 extra lbs for the steel world block is a mute point vs the stock block at 700hp and up?
What EXTRA 300 lbs? I think the World block weighs about 60 lbs more than a stock block.
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Re: B1 Guys what is the max HP
[Re: camdog440]
#444120
08/23/09 08:34 PM
08/23/09 08:34 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,293
Rock Springs
Bob_Coomer
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,293
Rock Springs
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My World Hemi block breaks the 300 lbs barrier on the scales. So it could be in the 75-100lbs range. But of the flip side, I know its plenty thick in key area's.
[color:"red"]65 Hemi Belvedere coming soon [/color]
[color:"#00FF00"]557" Indy engine 1.07 60ft 144mph in the 8th 2100 lbs package [/color]
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