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Real World Power gains from head swap.. #435285
08/11/09 09:40 PM
08/11/09 09:40 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,293
Rock Springs
Bob_Coomer Offline OP
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Bob_Coomer  Offline OP
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,293
Rock Springs
OK
My father-In-Law has been restoring a very nice pro street Duster. He is a old School Chevy guy, that I converted to Mopar Power since I married his Daughter. LOL.
Anyways Here is the current setup
Chassis is a 72 Plymouth Duster all steel except glass deck lid. Car has been tubed for 14x32 slicks but he currently runs old School M/T Sportsman Pro tires Like 19x32 IIRC. It has 8 3/4 4.10 sure grip with Moesr axles. 10 Point roll cage, race seats etc.
The engine is a stock 71 440 block bored .030 and uses a Keith Black Hyper pistons, IIRc like a 237 part number which is suppose to be about 10:1 with his stock Iron heads. Im thinking they are 452's which have been home ported, with large valves. It has Isky adjustable rockers, and a Comp Solid flat tappet with dur in the 270's at 50 and around .570ish lift. Converter is a GER (yea I know) 4500, which has been proven to be a decent piece actually. It has a M1 intake 4500 series and uses a adapter for a 850 DP holley carb. 6AL MSD ignition, I rewired the car and installed a ARC Switch panel, put all electronics on relays etc.
Before He picked the car up off my buddy, it had a 4.88 gear (maybe 4.56) and a 8896 dominator. All else the same, it ran 7.40-7.30 range in the 8th mile. Not to bad IMO.
Anyways
He has spent some money cosmetic wise on the car, having it painted, all new wheels, new interior, recovered seats, new carpet, head liner, door panels etc. New headers the list goes on and on. It really is a nice looking car.
I have been on his case for a few months now about upgrading the cylinder heads.
I have run about every head out there in between stock, and CNC ported Indy's. The Edelbrocks would enable him to reuse about everything. Rocker gear, intake headers, which are tight fitting new Ceramic Coated Headman Hustlers he dropped about $900 for. So in any case he would shat a brick if we got him some heads and he couldn't reuse these. I will look closer at fittement issue's etc.
So It looks like the Indy EZ's would be first choice. Then maybe the Victors if, and only if we can make the headers work without major mods.
I know He wont spring for a set of CNC ported heads.
So If we picked up a set of Indy EZ's, maybe picked up a Intake, like the Victor or Indy and opened the as cast heads up to max wedge ports, and If I done some bowl work/ blending. I have done my fair share of port work, so i dont consider my self a Novice.
Im thinking the engine is making in the neighborhood of 450-475 hp right now. I would be totally shocked given the increase in compression, and head flow if this thing didnt make over or right at 600hp. Is this a out of line estimate?
This should push the Duster well into the 6's no sweat, and be a fairly reliable combo that doesn't need to spin to the moon, and require race by race maintenance.
Here is what I want to do.
I want to get the car lined out have all the parts on hand to do the swap at the Mopar Southern Classics this October at Mountain Park Motorplex.


[color:"red"]65 Hemi Belvedere coming soon [/color]
[color:"#00FF00"]557" Indy engine 1.07 60ft 144mph in the 8th 2100 lbs package [/color]
Re: Real World Power gains from head swap.. [Re: Bob_Coomer] #435286
08/12/09 10:46 AM
08/12/09 10:46 AM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 19,317
State of confusion
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Thumperdart Offline
I Live Here
Thumperdart  Offline
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State of confusion
My 906 headed solid cammed 470 made 615 hp and 598 tq on Pettis`s engine dyno and went 10.48 @ 3200 lbs w/my dumb a$$ driving and tuning it. I now run home ported rpm`s and a solid roller Isky cam and went 9.98 so not sure what just a head swap would do but I would think the max wedge port would help a BUNCH. Good luck.


72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
Re: Real World Power gains from head swap.. [Re: Thumperdart] #435287
08/12/09 10:58 AM
08/12/09 10:58 AM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,613
Deerfield, Ohio
70dusterjohn Offline
top fuel
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Deerfield, Ohio
Okay we went 11.50 with a very mild 440 with 915 heads. Went to a stock set of Max wedge heads and went 10.93. Thats the best I can do with back to back tests.

Re: Real World Power gains from head swap.. [Re: Thumperdart] #435288
08/12/09 11:05 AM
08/12/09 11:05 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,542
BROOK PARK, OH
WILD BILL Offline
Senior Member of the Junior Dragster Club
WILD BILL  Offline
Senior Member of the Junior Dragster Club

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,542
BROOK PARK, OH
I made the head change at the same time I put the motor in the charger so my results may be tainted as it is much lighter than my old car.

That being said, I put on OOTB eddy heads and noticed a real difference in the motor right at the start of the burn out. Rev'd quicker and harder than it ever did with the stock iron heads.

With Iron heads this motor pushed a 3400# car to mid 12's

The entire drive train and axle went into the charger but it's 2800#'s. But if you figure .1 for every 100 #'s that still should have only put it in the high 11's had I left the iron heads on.

As far as fittment issues go, I seem to recall hearing stories of headmans not wanting to fit the eddys angled plug location.

I don't want to start a but for the he's spent on the headers and wanting to reuse those you might want to consider the stealth heads. Those heads plus the flow work might still be the same price as the OOTB eddies

Re: Real World Power gains from head swap.. [Re: WILD BILL] #435289
08/12/09 12:33 PM
08/12/09 12:33 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,293
Rock Springs
Bob_Coomer Offline OP
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Bob_Coomer  Offline OP
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Rock Springs
Quote:

I made the head change at the same time I put the motor in the charger so my results may be tainted as it is much lighter than my old car.

That being said, I put on OOTB eddy heads and noticed a real difference in the motor right at the start of the burn out. Rev'd quicker and harder than it ever did with the stock iron heads.

With Iron heads this motor pushed a 3400# car to mid 12's

The entire drive train and axle went into the charger but it's 2800#'s. But if you figure .1 for every 100 #'s that still should have only put it in the high 11's had I left the iron heads on.

As far as fittment issues go, I seem to recall hearing stories of headmans not wanting to fit the eddys angled plug location.

I don't want to start a but for the he's spent on the headers and wanting to reuse those you might want to consider the stealth heads. Those heads plus the flow work might still be the same price as the OOTB eddies




Thanks Guys
The Indy EZ's have stock exhaust port location, so I assume they would fit like a glove.
IMO
The Indy EZ's are what I am going to talk to him about. The leave room to grow down the road too. Right now my plan is to just do a head swap, with some nice bowl work, and gasket matching.
Id be surprised it this same engine couldnt muster 575-600 hp.


[color:"red"]65 Hemi Belvedere coming soon [/color]
[color:"#00FF00"]557" Indy engine 1.07 60ft 144mph in the 8th 2100 lbs package [/color]
Re: Real World Power gains from head swap.. [Re: Bob_Coomer] #435290
08/12/09 12:46 PM
08/12/09 12:46 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,542
BROOK PARK, OH
WILD BILL Offline
Senior Member of the Junior Dragster Club
WILD BILL  Offline
Senior Member of the Junior Dragster Club

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,542
BROOK PARK, OH
What are the spark plug positions in the EZ's?

Re: Real World Power gains from head swap.. [Re: Bob_Coomer] #435291
08/12/09 01:31 PM
08/12/09 01:31 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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BradH Offline
Taking time off to work on my car
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Val-haul-ass... eventually
What I can offer is a "sort of" valid comparison. Used legit stock 906 heads w/ a mild 440 combination to run 13.2 @ 103; switched to ported 452s (~ 270/200 @ .600"), along w/ changing from OEM-type 1.5 rockers to Crane 1.6 irons, and the car went 12.5 @ 109.

IMO, the combination you described will work better w/ a standard-size port than a Max Wedge, even if the MW nets more CFM. There's a lot of value from keeping the velocity up for 440 non-stroker combination, especially w/ limited stall speed.

Re: Real World Power gains from head swap.. [Re: BradH] #435292
08/12/09 02:01 PM
08/12/09 02:01 PM
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Posts: 9,986
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart Offline
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Quote:



IMO, the combination you described will work better w/ a standard-size port than a Max Wedge, even if the MW nets more CFM. There's a lot of value from keeping the velocity up for 440 non-stroker combination, especially w/ limited stall speed.



The stock port window works extremely well for that size motor, and porting may not benefit much with the tight converter. I have a buddy running stock eddies OOTB on a 446 going 11.0 on a great day, 3800 lbs as a reference. And with a 590 cam no less.


8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
Re: Real World Power gains from head swap.. [Re: BradH] #435293
08/12/09 02:03 PM
08/12/09 02:03 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 996
Queens, New York
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Harley Offline
super stock
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Queens, New York

IMO, the combination you described will work better w/ a standard-size port than a Max Wedge, even if the MW nets more CFM. There's a lot of value from keeping the velocity up for 440 non-stroker combination, especially w/ limited stall speed.



100%

Re: Real World Power gains from head swap.. [Re: BradH] #435294
08/12/09 02:54 PM
08/12/09 02:54 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,293
Rock Springs
Bob_Coomer Offline OP
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Bob_Coomer  Offline OP
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,293
Rock Springs
Quote:

What I can offer is a "sort of" valid comparison. Used legit stock 906 heads w/ a mild 440 combination to run 13.2 @ 103; switched to ported 452s (~ 270/200 @ .600"), along w/ changing from OEM-type 1.5 rockers to Crane 1.6 irons, and the car went 12.5 @ 109.

IMO, the combination you described will work better w/ a standard-size port than a Max Wedge, even if the MW nets more CFM. There's a lot of value from keeping the velocity up for 440 non-stroker combination, especially w/ limited stall speed.



Good points guys, thanks.
I knew that his current intake was a pretty good piece. And anything he can reuse is a big plus in his book.
I knew first hand that bigger isnt always better. I had a 493 with max ported 440-1's CNC that went 380 cfm+ with only 11.5:1 compression, it was a good runner anyways. I found out later that the same engine with a set of moderately ported SR's run faster in the same truck and drive train.. The 440-1's had MPH better, but the 60ft was worse...
This was in a 3300 lbs dakota. The E/T diff was just over a tenth, but the diff was there non the less.


[color:"red"]65 Hemi Belvedere coming soon [/color]
[color:"#00FF00"]557" Indy engine 1.07 60ft 144mph in the 8th 2100 lbs package [/color]
Re: Real World Power gains from head swap.. [Re: Bob_Coomer] #435295
08/13/09 03:11 AM
08/13/09 03:11 AM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 62
Indianapolis
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Roadrunner451 Offline
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Indianapolis
When my 68 Roadrunner had a 451 in it with iron 452 castings with big valves and a pocket port, it went 12.20's at 112. The next weekend I swapped on a set of out of the box Edelbrock RPM's. The following weekend i went back to the track and it went 11.70's at 116. The only thing I changed was the heads. The weather conditions were almost identical. I know the performance may not be all that, but at the time this car was my daily driver.

Re: Real World Power gains from head swap.. [Re: Bob_Coomer] #435296
08/13/09 09:32 AM
08/13/09 09:32 AM
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South Carolina, United States
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carolinacuda Offline
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South Carolina, United States
My old combo in my 74cuda went 12.20's. I had 452 heads with a torkerII intake and a comp xe295hl cam. The engine is 440 .30 over with 2355 pistons (10.5) compression. I changed to Indy Ez's (stock port)and victor int with a hughes solid cam 579 lift with 252/256 @50 dur. I now run 11.50's all day with stock susp and a crappy TCI 3500 conv. and 3.91's out back. I dont know how much the heads were worth alone but i know if i step up the power in the future they will handle it.







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