strange electrical problem
#380634
07/20/09 02:29 AM
07/20/09 02:29 AM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
mickm
OP
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OP
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
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put a new battery in the car, the old one had been run completely dead a few times, and was only measuring a little over 11 volts, wouldn't hold a charge.
all seemed well, until today when i went to start it after sitting for a bout a week and a half. just clicking from the solenoid. with my little 6 amp battery charger, it only took about 10 minutes until it had enough charge to start the car.
drove it for about 15 minutes in town, which before was enough to get at least one more start out of it, but after sitting for 1/2 hour or so, it didn't have enough charge. got a jump, and got it going.
drove for a good 30 minutes on the highway, and then started it up after a few hours. another 20-25 minutes on the highway, then it sat for about 2 hours. started, but seemed a bit weak. drove it in town, parked it for an hour or more, and it wouldn't start.
coasted down a hill and bump started it. this is now at night, and i turn the headlights on, and they seem weak, and the dash lights seem very dim.
by the time i got home, 20 minutes later, the headlights hardly look like they are on, dash lights are very dim, and the amp gauge is reading more or less in the neutral position all the way home, where at least it was reading charging all during the day.
engine is running fine the whole time.
may or may not be related, but i have an R/T specialties tic-tac-toc and an msd ignition. a while back the tach started jumping around a lot, especially at idle and over 3 grand. now at idle it is at 0 rpm, and sometimes kicks back up once the rpm's go up. hard to see how these are related, but seems too coincidental as well.
i thought maybe i just have a draw somewhere, but something else seems to be going on.
any thoughts?
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Re: strange electrical problem
[Re: Annie]
#380637
07/20/09 11:32 AM
07/20/09 11:32 AM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
nascarxx29
Old Timer
If you remove pos battery cable and car shuts right down .Then your not charging.If car remains on the alternator is working .
STOP WITH THE OLD WIVES TALE !!! STOP IT !!! WRONG WRONG WRONG. DO NOT EVER remove a battery cable from a running car, and you will NOT find this "procedure" in ANY recognized shop manual, "Haynes" type, "Motors" or any other automotive text
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Re: strange electrical problem
#380638
07/20/09 11:36 AM
07/20/09 11:36 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 27,347
Today? Who Knows?
1_WILD_RT
Management Trainee
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Management Trainee
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 27,347
Today? Who Knows?
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Quote:
Quote:
nascarxx29
Old Timer
If you remove pos battery cable and car shuts right down .Then your not charging.If car remains on the alternator is working .
STOP WITH THE OLD WIVES TALE !!! STOP IT !!! WRONG WRONG WRONG. DO NOT EVER remove a battery cable from a running car, and you will NOT find this "procedure" in ANY recognized shop manual, "Haynes" type, "Motors" or any other automotive text
 You want to see what a voltage spike can do go ahead.. 
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Re: strange electrical problem
[Re: 1_WILD_RT]
#380639
07/20/09 02:24 PM
07/20/09 02:24 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,595
TX , NJ , FL
WINGCARS_6970
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,595
TX , NJ , FL
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I' ve gotten away.On the car running changing out batterys with both cables off .No its not a recognized step.But I wont do it on new computerized cars.But I never had any problems.Ive doing alot of rewiring on my own cars .And done many customers car.And never had a comeback
1969 Daytona 440 L9B410772
1970 Coronet 500 383 Presently owned
1970 Superbird 440 U 166242
1970 Superbird 440 U 174597
1970 Superbird 440-6 V 179697
1970 Coronet RT 440 U 224126
1968 Road Runner 426 J 134509
1970 Daytona Replica 318 G 178701
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Re: strange electrical problem
[Re: 1_WILD_RT]
#380640
07/20/09 02:27 PM
07/20/09 02:27 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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The first thing we need to know is WHAT YEAR IS YOUR CAR? If it's the '70 pictured, then we know You may have TWO problems--you may have a bad new battery, or you may have a "drain" when the key is off For CERTAIN it seems like the alternator is not charging. For starters, if you have a charger, attempt to charge up the battery. If it's a small 3-5 amp, charge overnight. Alternator: Turn key to run, engine off, and use a test lamp or multimeter. You should have close to battery voltage at the large stud output, and at the blue field wire. Probe the regulator connector, and you should have battery there at the ign terminal. (blue wire) The second wire out of the regulator goes from the regulator to the second (green) field terminal. Use a continuity tester or your multimeter to see if that wire shows continuity. Shake it around while checking Now, once again, with key on, back at the alternator, unhook the green wire. At the alternator, you should have battery voltage at BOTH the field terminals. Ready up a clip lead and GROUND the exposed alternator field terminal--the one where you unhooked the green. You should get a small spark. Leave this connected and quickly--------- Crank up the engine, and if the alternator is good, you should get "full output" because now you have bypassed the regulator. Take care not to over-rev the engine, because the alternator can easily output too much voltage in this condition. It's helpful--and you should buy one if you don't have one--to use a multimeter and monitor battery voltage Don't leave this clip lead hooked up any longer than you need to check if the alternator will charge If you get this far, post back CHECKING FOR A DRAIN. With EVERYTHING in the car off, and verify that any glovebox/ trunk/ etc lamps are out, unhook one battery cable WITH THE ENGINE OFF and hook your test lamp in series between the cable and it's terminal, see if it lights. A double check is to THEN hook your multimeter in the same connection IN AMPERAGE measurement and see if you can measure any drain. Be careful to start in the highest amps scale. Here's a picture of the '70 and later wiring. Notice that on the regulator, the IGN terminal is in the "middle" of the connector, and the F field is on the right side, facing the regulator. Down at the alternator, you can switch the field wires and that is OK 
Last edited by 440sixpack; 07/20/09 02:29 PM.
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Re: strange electrical problem
#380641
07/20/09 02:30 PM
07/20/09 02:30 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,595
TX , NJ , FL
WINGCARS_6970
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,595
TX , NJ , FL
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This is typical mopar wiring issue I get on my hands.Id say jumper cables usage and boost battery charger spike the electrical also. IMG]http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/75414/wiring2.jpg[/img] 
1969 Daytona 440 L9B410772
1970 Coronet 500 383 Presently owned
1970 Superbird 440 U 166242
1970 Superbird 440 U 174597
1970 Superbird 440-6 V 179697
1970 Coronet RT 440 U 224126
1968 Road Runner 426 J 134509
1970 Daytona Replica 318 G 178701
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Re: strange electrical problem
[Re: WINGCARS_6970]
#380642
07/20/09 02:40 PM
07/20/09 02:40 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,595
TX , NJ , FL
WINGCARS_6970
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,595
TX , NJ , FL
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Another way I used to find out the alternator wasnt working without having a multimeter or common 12 volt testlight. .Because I made many road rescue breakdown calls for alot of years.And I had barely no tools except for screwdriver or jumper cables.Or did who I was stopping to help out broke down .Carefully touching a screw driver to back center of alternator case.Feeling for the elctromagnetic pulling effect gave you a idea what alternator was doing .And if I had a bad regulator Id bypass it and full field it .And turn on alot of things headlights etc to compensate the load .Off subject when I use to diagnose how bad a timing chain was on scene .Was with pair of gloves grabbing fan belt to move crank pulley.Or socket turning motor if I had the socket. But with distributor cap off observing rotor movement in relation to rotation of the engine.Lets you know it time to replace timing chain by very little lack of rotor movement .And you wont find this in those books.refered to.You will NOT find this "procedure" in ANY recognized shop manual, "Haynes" type, "Motors" or any other automotive text
Its up to the individual and what diagnosing tools/equipment they have or know how to use
what works for you might be this
CHECKING FOR A DRAIN. With EVERYTHING in the car off, and verify that any glovebox/ trunk/ etc lamps are out, unhook one battery cable WITH THE ENGINE OFF and hook your test lamp in series between the cable and it's terminal, see if it lights. A double check is to THEN hook your multimeter in the same connection IN AMPERAGE measurement and see if you can measure any drain. Be careful to start in the highest amps scale.
With a meter or a testlight depends what your using.Starting with testlight .You want to pull one fuse at a time to isolate the problem area when hunting down a short with a testlight.Make sure all connections all clean and tight and you have good grounds.And I make sure every switch is off and doors closed .So not to get a false reading.If you had a compass available to you.It can trace current
And checking - grounds This is how I always checked my grounds.I hook up a 12 volt testlight with the clip on the + pos on the battery.Or whatever source of+ power you have available to access in your working area.And when you touch the pointed end.To what your checking to see if its well grounded it lights the light.If not theres a problem.Its the opposite hook up of testing for voltage.And having alot of mopar for 30 + years with the usuall wiring issues.And done about 35 and counting mopar related wiring jobs on others cars .Number 1 mopar Issue grounds noumber 2.Amp gauge and its connections it housed in metal dash frame insulated by paper thin cardboard. fuse box connections and bulkhead terminal connections and condition and continiuty of the wires .Ignition switch terminal connections Ive seen alot of burnt terminals on the 70s cars especially in this area. Also at the starter relay where the fuseable link is often bypassed .Are all areas prone to issues.And this electrical system from day 1 wasnt state of the art.And now the cars being much older these electrical sysyems and known trouble prone areas.These issues surface
Electricity is lazy and will choose another easier path and cross circuit.And make wierd things happen.
And anything that carries + positive battery voltage.And is coroded or loose .Then you get high resistance .Wires getting warm connections hot and that familar plastic burning smell
And if your adding optional equpment.I go by the old school if you want to flow more water you need larger pipe .Heavier wire for load devices
1969 Daytona 440 L9B410772
1970 Coronet 500 383 Presently owned
1970 Superbird 440 U 166242
1970 Superbird 440 U 174597
1970 Superbird 440-6 V 179697
1970 Coronet RT 440 U 224126
1968 Road Runner 426 J 134509
1970 Daytona Replica 318 G 178701
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Re: strange electrical problem
[Re: WINGCARS_6970]
#380643
07/20/09 03:52 PM
07/20/09 03:52 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,595
TX , NJ , FL
WINGCARS_6970
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,595
TX , NJ , FL
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440sixpack
top fuel
Reged: Mar 14 2008
Loc: Pacific Northwest
[Quote] 440sixpack!!!! Dont PM this garbage to me and then block me from replying. Go back and read...No where did I say anything about acetylene or injecting anything in the crankcase.
READ----READ----READ-----
Re: 318 only running on 4 cylinders HELP!!!!!! [Re: 440sixpack]
#5354783 - Wed Jul 15 2009 06:17 PM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Quote:
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Listen, xxxxx, don't be raggin on me, and YOU are the one who stepped in with the comment about LP being a legitimate procedure, etc etc. The point I am and was addressing is the idiot who posted about
"To check for an internal leak you need to get some gas into the crankcase, propane will work fine. Start the engine, open the gas valve on the propane tank feeding the gas either to the pvc opening on the valve cover or the oil fill on the other side. If there is an internal leak then the engine will smooth out when it has injested the propane."
Then later defended his claim with:
"I have used both Propane and acetylene many times to find leaks, I'm not sure I know how it would blow up the crankcase..... There is no ignition source in the crankcase.... "
The above "procedure" has nothing to do with LP setup for tuneup used some years back
If you don't think this is dangerous. you haven't been around much.
Don't bother replying, I'm done with your a$$
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1969 Daytona 440 L9B410772
1970 Coronet 500 383 Presently owned
1970 Superbird 440 U 166242
1970 Superbird 440 U 174597
1970 Superbird 440-6 V 179697
1970 Coronet RT 440 U 224126
1968 Road Runner 426 J 134509
1970 Daytona Replica 318 G 178701
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Re: strange electrical problem
[Re: WINGCARS_6970]
#380645
07/20/09 05:27 PM
07/20/09 05:27 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
440sixpack
top fuel
Reged: Mar 14 2008
Loc: Pacific Northwest
[Quote] 440sixpack!!!! Dont PM this garbage to me and then block me from replying. Go back and read...No where did I say anything about acetylene or injecting anything in the crankcase.
READ----READ----READ-----
Re: 318 only running on 4 cylinders HELP!!!!!! [Re: 440sixpack]
#5354783 - Wed Jul 15 2009 06:17 PM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Listen, xxxxx, don't be raggin on me, and YOU are the one who stepped in with the comment about LP being a legitimate procedure, etc etc. The point I am and was addressing is the idiot who posted about
"To check for an internal leak you need to get some gas into the crankcase, propane will work fine. Start the engine, open the gas valve on the propane tank feeding the gas either to the pvc opening on the valve cover or the oil fill on the other side. If there is an internal leak then the engine will smooth out when it has injested the propane."
Then later defended his claim with:
"I have used both Propane and acetylene many times to find leaks, I'm not sure I know how it would blow up the crankcase..... There is no ignition source in the crankcase.... "
The above "procedure" has nothing to do with LP setup for tuneup used some years back
If you don't think this is dangerous. you haven't been around much.
Don't bother replying, I'm done with your a$$
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Thanks for the "education" Richard. You just earned yourself the "ignore" list Why is it that you just cannot resist being such an $$$hole?
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Re: strange electrical problem
#380646
07/20/09 09:32 PM
07/20/09 09:32 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
mickm
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
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Quote:
The first thing we need to know is WHAT YEAR IS YOUR CAR? If it's the '70 pictured, then we know
You may have TWO problems--you may have a bad new battery, or you may have a "drain" when the key is off
For CERTAIN it seems like the alternator is not charging.
For starters, if you have a charger, attempt to charge up the battery. If it's a small 3-5 amp, charge overnight.
Alternator:
Turn key to run, engine off, and use a test lamp or multimeter. You should have close to battery voltage at the large stud output, and at the blue field wire. Probe the regulator connector, and you should have battery there at the ign terminal. (blue wire)
The second wire out of the regulator goes from the regulator to the second (green) field terminal. Use a continuity tester or your multimeter to see if that wire shows continuity. Shake it around while checking
Now, once again, with key on, back at the alternator, unhook the green wire. At the alternator, you should have battery voltage at BOTH the field terminals. Ready up a clip lead and GROUND the exposed alternator field terminal--the one where you unhooked the green. You should get a small spark. Leave this connected and quickly---------
ok,
- checked the voltage at the alternator, 11V (battery was still low, not charged yet).
- checked the voltage at blue terminal, 11V.
- checked continuity of blue and green wire from connectors at voltage regulator to connectors at alternator, and those test at near 0 ohms.
- disconnected the green wire with key on, (there was a spark), and got 11V at both the field terminals.
- with a multimeter connected between the neg battery cable and the neg post on the battery, has a 78 mA draw with nothing on, the doors closed, and just the clock running. disconnected the clock, and had a 3 mA draw. hard to imagine that a 3 mA draw can drain that battery in a week.
that was all i got to, will test the alternator tomorrow when i can fire it up.
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Re: strange electrical problem
[Re: mickm]
#380647
07/21/09 07:37 PM
07/21/09 07:37 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
mickm
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
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ok, round two. i ended up replacing the battery, as it was new, and why not get that out of the way. with the engine at about 2k, i'm getting about 14.5V at the alternator, and as high as about 13.8 at the battery. with the engine off, i'm reading about 12.6 at the battery. so i think it's safe to say the alternator is ok. i took it out for a long drive, including a  through the gears  and it seems to be ok so far. when i took it out, once the engine was off idle, the gauge in the car was reading +20. within just a few minutes on the highway, it was about 1/2 way between 0 and 20, and then by the end of the ride it was closer to 0, although off 0 in the positive direction. my question at the moment is the difference in voltage from the alternator to the battery. shouldn't that be roughly the same? so 14.5V at the alternator, wouldn't you expect to see within a few tenths of that at the battery?
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Re: strange electrical problem
[Re: mickm]
#380648
07/21/09 07:58 PM
07/21/09 07:58 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,595
TX , NJ , FL
WINGCARS_6970
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,595
TX , NJ , FL
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Was the original problem the former battery Everything else sounds to be doing ok.What else besides replacing battery.Was done. To get it up and going again with out killing this battery
1969 Daytona 440 L9B410772
1970 Coronet 500 383 Presently owned
1970 Superbird 440 U 166242
1970 Superbird 440 U 174597
1970 Superbird 440-6 V 179697
1970 Coronet RT 440 U 224126
1968 Road Runner 426 J 134509
1970 Daytona Replica 318 G 178701
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Re: strange electrical problem
[Re: WINGCARS_6970]
#380649
07/21/09 08:15 PM
07/21/09 08:15 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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The difference in voltage you posted between the alt and battery isn't bad. This voltage will depend on several things:
The amount the system is charging at the time, IE if that battery is somewhat low, and it's charging hard, the voltage between those two points, known as "voltage drop" will be higher
The size of the wire will affect this reading, the smaller the wire, the larger the drop
Any loose/ poor/ corroded connections in the path between the alt and battery will raise the voltage
Any bad stuff in the infamous bulkhead connector and the ammeter--if it's not bypassed will raise the voltage.
As the battery comes "up" and the ammeter normallizes at 0 charge, this voltage drop will decrease, depending on the amount of "stuff" you have turned on, IE AC, fans, lights, etc
Unless you have an intermittent problem, what you are saying now sound pretty normal
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Re: strange electrical problem
#380650
07/22/09 12:55 AM
07/22/09 12:55 AM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
mickm
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
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Quote:
The difference in voltage you posted between the alt and battery isn't bad. This voltage will depend on several things:
The amount the system is charging at the time, IE if that battery is somewhat low, and it's charging hard, the voltage between those two points, known as "voltage drop" will be higher
The size of the wire will affect this reading, the smaller the wire, the larger the drop
Any loose/ poor/ corroded connections in the path between the alt and battery will raise the voltage
Any bad stuff in the infamous bulkhead connector and the ammeter--if it's not bypassed will raise the voltage.
As the battery comes "up" and the ammeter normallizes at 0 charge, this voltage drop will decrease, depending on the amount of "stuff" you have turned on, IE AC, fans, lights, etc
Unless you have an intermittent problem, what you are saying now sound pretty normal
yes, that is the problem, sort of. i don't know if the battery was bad, or if something else intermittent is going on. i'll just have to wait and see. i'm taking the car out tomorrow, so i will see if it has held the charge, and how it does.
i'll report back if there are any problems, as obviously i'll still have to work on tracing it.
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Re: strange electrical problem
[Re: mickm]
#380651
07/22/09 05:05 PM
07/22/09 05:05 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,840
The Swamp
Sixpak
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,840
The Swamp
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Quote:
Any loose/ poor/ corroded connections in the path between the alt and battery will raise the voltage
Any bad stuff in the infamous bulkhead connector and the ammeter--if it's not bypassed will raise the voltage.
This is ALWAYS the first thing I check - I've cleaned and greased or totally bypassed more battery/alternator firewall connections on old Mopars than I can count. Pull the connector for the motor wiring at the bulkhead, the one with the heavy red lead with the fusible link and heavy black lead off the alternator - dollars to donuts they have green corrosion, or worse, actually melted plastic. The terminals can be removed from the harness with a fine screwdriver to push the tab lock in, and spread back out to snap back in place. I clean 'em all one at a time with a wire brush and dremel, retouch the wire connections with solder, grease 'em and snap 'em back in place. If the plastic melted I bypass them by drilling two holes in the firewall and run new connections.
In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with leaving the stock ammeter in place - it's the connections TO the ammeter and battery going thru the firewall that are the problem. Those connections not only feed power back from the alternator to charge the battery but also feed power from the battery to the car when you're turning the key to start. Internally the ammeter is just a strip of brass with two terminals on it and the needle just moves as it sense the current flowing thru the brass.
Along with making sure the field wires are properly connected to the alternator and voltage regulator, make sure there is a good ground to the voltage regulator. It and the starter relay, as many other things on the engine compartment, are held on by sheet metal screws, which over time, lose their bite as they've been tightened on repeatedly over 40+ years. They need good grounds to make them work.
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