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no prime in oilpump problem fixed! #3231855
05/09/24 06:34 AM
05/09/24 06:34 AM
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Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart Offline OP
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Last fall I had issues with the oil system priming after sitting any length of time. I pulled the NEW Milodon high volume pump apart, and found it to have .004 end clearance. I hand sanded the housing down till I have .0017 end clearance, and now the pump pulls a prime right away. Milodons spec for max end clearance is .004. Why they would send them out the door already at max end clearance is beyond me. But I am now somewhat happy. Next problem, I have a big leak at the rear main seal. I put phosphorescent dye in the oil to help locate the leak, and after running the oil pump with an electric drill for over a minute, the only leakage is coming out of the seal area, so a new hi performance Felpro tan colored seal is on order.


8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
Re: no prime in oilpump problem fixed! [Re: gregsdart] #3231869
05/09/24 09:20 AM
05/09/24 09:20 AM
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Ontario, Canada
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Stanton Offline
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I'm surprised the leak at the seal shows up just priming the motor. The only oil that gets to that area would be dripping down from the lifter area or coming out the rear main bearing. With no crankcase pressure to blow the oil out the chance of that leaking would be minimal. So with a static leak it would almost seem like you forgot to install the seal altogether.

Re: no prime in oilpump problem fixed! [Re: Stanton] #3231892
05/09/24 11:38 AM
05/09/24 11:38 AM
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PA
moparacer Offline
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One of my friends ran into rear main seal problems last year. Had 2 new ones leak. He said the black fel pro are made in china now? I decided to use the tan colored Fluoroelastomer in mine this year to be safe.

Doesn't leak. (thank god)


67 Barracuda street/bracket car 11.27-119
68 Dart 502 BB 8.70s-152
414 cid SB Dragster 7.65-174
Re: no prime in oilpump problem fixed! [Re: Stanton] #3231901
05/09/24 12:09 PM
05/09/24 12:09 PM
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Posts: 2,115
Byron, NY
W.I.N. Racing Offline
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Originally Posted by Stanton
I'm surprised the leak at the seal shows up just priming the motor. The only oil that gets to that area would be dripping down from the lifter area or coming out the rear main bearing. With no crankcase pressure to blow the oil out the chance of that leaking would be minimal. So with a static leak it would almost seem like you forgot to install the seal altogether.
Seems odd to me as well...I'd bet Cam plug before a static rear main leak


'01 P1500, Blown/Inj BAE,/Veney ,Bruno/CS2,Dana 60
'01 Dodge 3500 S Cummins Auto, Fresh air kit, 4" Exhaust,
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Re: no prime in oilpump problem fixed! [Re: W.I.N. Racing] #3231903
05/09/24 12:24 PM
05/09/24 12:24 PM
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Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Dragula Offline
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I got the opposite; I have one that locks up when bolted on...Like no clearance at all. Luckily, I have a surface grinder at work.


'70 Cuda,...605 EFI Hemi Street Car (6.20 best pass, 1.33 60ft)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYw6RA-k5Bk (6.25 at 108.75mph from inside car)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCvfzsC4NgM (9.9)

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Re: no prime in oilpump problem fixed! [Re: Dragula] #3231909
05/09/24 01:16 PM
05/09/24 01:16 PM
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NC
440Jim Offline
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Originally Posted by Dragula
I got the opposite; I have one that locks up when bolted on...Like no clearance at all. Luckily, I have a surface grinder at work.

A surface grinder is the perfect machine to do the job!

I found my notes from 2008:
I disassembled, measured, and checked out my new oil pump for the motor. It is a Mopar Performance high volume pump, P4286590. It appears to be a Melling high volume part since cast into the body is "63 HV". Here are the details:

Cover flatness: Checked with precision parallel bar, none (spec <0.0015)
Rotor to housing face (flat) clearance: 0.002 (spec <0.004)
Outer rotor to housing bore: 0.008 (spec <0.014)
Rotor tip clearance: about 0.0035 (spec <0.010)
Inner rotor thickness (height) 1.1873 (spec ?, std is 0.943 min)
Outer rotor thickness (height) 1.1873
Outer rotor diameter: 2.473 (spec >2.469)
Spring free length: 2.245 (spec 2.25)
Spring diameter: 0.473


1993 Daytona, 5.50 at 130mph (1/8) 1.19 sixty ft (PG). Link to 572 B1 - Part 1
Re: no prime in oilpump problem fixed! [Re: W.I.N. Racing] #3231918
05/09/24 02:57 PM
05/09/24 02:57 PM
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Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart Offline OP
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Win and Stanton, i fired the motor, and had a puddle about three by six inch in short order. I put in a new seal, and tried again, this time with a vacuum leak plugged that had kept the vacuum at zero. This time it only leaked about half as much, but still a small puddle. So i bought some dye and a UV light and ran the pump with a drill only to see if it was something other than a seal leak. After about two minutes of 80 psi oil pressure, no leak. Overnight some oil with dye in it showed up below the seal, but only a couple drops of oil formed on the motor plate below the seal. So that leads me to believe i have a seal leak only.


8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
Re: no prime in oilpump problem fixed! [Re: gregsdart] #3231926
05/09/24 03:27 PM
05/09/24 03:27 PM
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MI, usa
dvw Offline
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Personally I like the factory seal retainer housing. I've started opening up the holes in the housing by one drill size. This allows the housing to center on the seal itself. Offsetting the seals halves in the block and cap helps with alignment as well. I use Ultra Grey by itself to fill the side cavities, no seals. The rear main seal in my motor has been in there for years. Even reused after freshen ups. If it aint broke, don't change it. It uses the red seal.
Doug

Re: no prime in oilpump problem fixed! [Re: gregsdart] #3231938
05/09/24 05:32 PM
05/09/24 05:32 PM
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WA
JD Dart Offline
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Is that their black billet one? Mine does the same thing don't know when but it's going to happen.


best so far 8.53 @ 158.59 MPH 60'1.240
Re: no prime in oilpump problem fixed! [Re: JD Dart] #3231959
05/09/24 07:53 PM
05/09/24 07:53 PM
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PA
moparacer Offline
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All I have ever used was factory retainers. Split halves 1/4 inch or so. Slight dab of ultra grey on ends and thin coating on outsides of seal halves being careful not to get any on seal lip. Seal outer with Ultra grey. Never had a leak.


67 Barracuda street/bracket car 11.27-119
68 Dart 502 BB 8.70s-152
414 cid SB Dragster 7.65-174
Re: no prime in oilpump problem fixed! [Re: JD Dart] #3231981
05/09/24 09:58 PM
05/09/24 09:58 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,010
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart Offline OP
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Originally Posted by JD Dart
Is that their black billet one? Mine does the same thing don't know when but it's going to happen.
Its the Milodon high volume, black aluminum body pump. Now, after reducing the end clearance, it pulls a prime very quickly.


8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
Re: no prime in oilpump problem fixed! [Re: dvw] #3232011
05/10/24 08:37 AM
05/10/24 08:37 AM
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Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart Offline OP
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Originally Posted by dvw
Personally I like the factory seal retainer housing. I've started opening up the holes in the housing by one drill size. This allows the housing to center on the seal itself. Offsetting the seals halves in the block and cap helps with alignment as well. I use Ultra Grey by itself to fill the side cavities, no seals. The rear main seal in my motor has been in there for years. Even reused after freshen ups. If it aint broke, don't change it. It uses the red seal.
Doug

I ordered a hi performance Felpro seal, tan in color. It is listed as for race motors with vacuum pumps. So i will do the best i can to clean all surfaces, use ultra black silicone (oil resistant), guide pins to install, and rhere is wiggle room around the bolts so the retainer should self center.


8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
Re: no prime in oilpump problem fixed! [Re: gregsdart] #3232015
05/10/24 09:10 AM
05/10/24 09:10 AM
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Ambridge, Pa.
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rickraw Offline
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Get the seal retainer flush with the back of the block.

Re: no prime in oilpump problem fixed! [Re: gregsdart] #3232455
05/13/24 07:07 AM
05/13/24 07:07 AM
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Shelby Twp. Mi
HardcoreB Online content
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Originally Posted by gregsdart
Originally Posted by dvw
Personally I like the factory seal retainer housing. I've started opening up the holes in the housing by one drill size. This allows the housing to center on the seal itself. Offsetting the seals halves in the block and cap helps with alignment as well. I use Ultra Grey by itself to fill the side cavities, no seals. The rear main seal in my motor has been in there for years. Even reused after freshen ups. If it aint broke, don't change it. It uses the red seal.
Doug

I ordered a hi performance Felpro seal, tan in color. It is listed as for race motors with vacuum pumps. So i will do the best i can to clean all surfaces, use ultra black silicone (oil resistant), guide pins to install, and rhere is wiggle room around the bolts so the retainer should self center.
RESPECTFULLY, I'm not sure what's being conveyed by DVW and Moparacer is understood. when you install the preferred 'tan' seal in both the block and the retainer there are ways to see the lips are 'line-to-line'. Also, putting a dab of rtv on the seals where they are cut is a good idea. Be conservative so it won't squeeze onto the crank surface. Let it cure a few days too.

Re: no prime in oilpump problem fixed! [Re: HardcoreB] #3232457
05/13/24 07:36 AM
05/13/24 07:36 AM
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Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart Offline OP
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Ok, i spotted the mention of ultra grey, GASKET MAKER. That and the use of stock retainers. Hardcoreb, not sure what else you feel i am missing hear. I have room for the retainer to "self center", but with the motor in the car, not sure i can gaurantee that i will fill the side cavitys properly. I am getting a bore scope to see if i can identify rhe leak area better.
The retainer i am using sealed fine on the first assembly, dyno and some runs.
Feel free to comment on what you think i am missing.


8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky






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