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Full Groove vs. 3/4 Groove Mains for BB Mopar #3217299
03/01/24 03:44 PM
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19_Dart_68 Offline OP
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According to Mahle-Aftermarket's documentation, 3/4 groove bearings promote less HP loss and don't suffer any lubrication loss vs. Full Groove bearings.

Is there any reason to not use 3/4 groove bearings in a BB Mopar stroker engine? Or any better reason(s) to use Full Groove instead of the 3/4-groove?


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Re: Full Groove vs. 3/4 Groove Mains for BB Mopar [Re: 19_Dart_68] #3217306
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I have a pretty good reason for not using 3/4 groove in my BB.

400 Mains. whiney

That being said, the regular ol 876P full groove bearings I am replacing in my engine were put in it in 2018, and I could reused the rod bearings if I wanted to at 800+ hp.

And they have a LOT of passes on them. Like 200 a year except for covid year when I only put 110 on it. runaway


67 Barracuda street/bracket car 11.27-119
68 Dart 502 BB 8.70s-152
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Re: Full Groove vs. 3/4 Groove Mains for BB Mopar [Re: moparacer] #3217307
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Man, that's awesome! Glad they held up that well for you!

Yeah, guess I should have said RB based stroker...

Last edited by 19_Dart_68; 03/01/24 04:39 PM.

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Re: Full Groove vs. 3/4 Groove Mains for BB Mopar [Re: 19_Dart_68] #3217308
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Do you want oil pressure to your rods full time or not? work
I do up, I use the ruck narrow full groove main bearings, not the wide full groove race bearings tsk twocents

Oil does two things in our motors, lubricate and cool, I like cool cranks whistling grin work


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Full Groove vs. 3/4 Groove Mains for BB Mopar [Re: Cab_Burge] #3217312
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Originally Posted by Cab_Burge
Do you want oil pressure to your rods full time or not? work
I do up, I use the ruck narrow full groove main bearings, not the wide full groove race bearings tsk twocents

Oil does two things in our motors, lubricate and cool, I like cool cranks whistling grin work


Are those the same as the MS-1277HG Clevite 77's?


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Re: Full Groove vs. 3/4 Groove Mains for BB Mopar [Re: 19_Dart_68] #3217315
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Originally Posted by 19_Dart_68
Originally Posted by Cab_Burge
Do you want oil pressure to your rods full time or not? work
I do up, I use the ruck narrow full groove main bearings, not the wide full groove race bearings tsk twocents

Oil does two things in our motors, lubricate and cool, I like cool cranks whistling grin work


Are those the same as the MS-1277HG Clevite 77's?

I can't answer that sorry. I use to use the Seal Power part number M4500 for the RB motors and their M4400 for the B motors, I think they discontinued the M 4400 several years back whiney
I prefer to build the 400 blocks over the 440 blocks due to the thicker main webbing up scope


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Re: Full Groove vs. 3/4 Groove Mains for BB Mopar [Re: Cab_Burge] #3217316
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Originally Posted by Cab_Burge
Originally Posted by 19_Dart_68
Originally Posted by Cab_Burge
Do you want oil pressure to your rods full time or not? work
I do up, I use the ruck narrow full groove main bearings, not the wide full groove race bearings tsk twocents

Oil does two things in our motors, lubricate and cool, I like cool cranks whistling grin work


Are those the same as the MS-1277HG Clevite 77's?

I can't answer that sorry. I use to use the Seal Power part number M4500 for the RB motors and their M4400 for the B motors, I think they discontinued the M 4400 several years back whiney
I prefer to build the 400 blocks over the 440 blocks due to the thicker main webbing up scope


Ok, I get ya. I think they are the same bearing. I have a '78 440 and I think it is similar to the 400's in that respect.


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Re: Full Groove vs. 3/4 Groove Mains for BB Mopar [Re: 19_Dart_68] #3217321
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Originally Posted by 19_Dart_68
According to Mahle-Aftermarket's documentation, 3/4 groove bearings promote less HP loss and don't suffer any lubrication loss vs. Full Groove bearings.

Is there any reason to not use 3/4 groove bearings in a BB Mopar stroker engine? Or any better reason(s) to use Full Groove instead of the 3/4-groove?


I use 3/4 groove if I can find them. Sometimes it is really hard to find bearings these days so you just live with what you can get. In the old days when parts were available we used 3/4 groove on everything.

Re: Full Groove vs. 3/4 Groove Mains for BB Mopar [Re: 19_Dart_68] #3217331
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I like the Speed Pro 119M 3/4-groove main (although they're really more like a 5/8 with a wide groove if you look closely). That said, I wouldn't think twice about running a traditional full-groove, which I have in the past. I know Cab is a big proponent of the narrow-type full-groove and I'd consider those if I couldn't get my preferred 119Ms.


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Re: Full Groove vs. 3/4 Groove Mains for BB Mopar [Re: 19_Dart_68] #3217355
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Originally Posted by 19_Dart_68
Man, that's awesome! Glad they held up that well for you!

Yeah, guess I should have said RB based stroker...


I was just commenting for the sake of the full groove 3/4 groove debate.

I would probably run a 3/4 groove if it was an option but it isn't.

And I never had any problems I could link to full.


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Re: Full Groove vs. 3/4 Groove Mains for BB Mopar [Re: moparacer] #3217385
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I've run Clevite 3/4 groove in my 4.5 stroke motor to 7200. 11 years 1000 passes. They've been fine

Re: Full Groove vs. 3/4 Groove Mains for BB Mopar [Re: dvw] #3218003
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Here is the info from Clevite with the attached Graphs
Quote

Various forms of main bearing grooving have been used over the years. We are frequently asked what difference grooving makes. First, it’s essential to understand that bearings depend on a film of oil to keep them separated from the shaft surface. This oil film is developed by shaft rotation. As the shaft rotates it pulls oil into the loaded area of the bearing and rides up on this film much like a tire hydroplaning on wet pavement. Grooving in a bearing acts like tread in a tire to break up the oil film. While you want your tires to grip the road, you don’t want your bearings to grip the shaft. The primary reason for having any grooving in a main bearing is to provide oil to the connecting rods. Without rod bearings to feed, a simple oil hole would be sufficient to lubricate a main bearing. Many early engines used full grooved bearings and some even used multiple grooves. As engine and bearing technology developed, bearing grooving was removed from modern lower main bearings. The result is in a thicker film of oil for the shaft to ride on. This provides a greater safety margin and improved bearing life. Upper main shells, which see lower loads than the lowers, have retained a groove to supply the connecting rods with oil. In an effort to develop the best possible main bearing designs for performance engines, we’ve investigated the effects of main bearing grooving on bearing performance. The graphs illustrate that a simple 180-degree groove in the upper main shell is still the best overall design. While a slightly shorter groove of 140 degrees provides a marginal gain, most of the benefit is to the upper shell, which doesn’t need improvement. On the other hand, extending the groove into the lower half, even as little as 20 degrees at each parting line (220 degrees in total), takes away from upper bearing performance without providing any benefit to the lower half. It’s also interesting to note that as groove length increases so do horsepower loss and peak oil film pressure which is transmitted directly to the bearing.


Picture1.pngPicture2.png

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Re: Full Groove vs. 3/4 Groove Mains for BB Mopar [Re: W.I.N. Racing] #3218102
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Iget it, but what about the the effects on the rod bearing.

I know that the 1/2 grove is best for the main wedge/film but I more concerned about the rod.

Re: Full Groove vs. 3/4 Groove Mains for BB Mopar [Re: W.I.N. Racing] #3219890
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Originally Posted by W.I.N. Racing
Here is the info from Clevite with the attached Graphs
Quote

Various forms of main bearing grooving have been used over the years. We are frequently asked what difference grooving makes. First, it’s essential to understand that bearings depend on a film of oil to keep them separated from the shaft surface. This oil film is developed by shaft rotation. As the shaft rotates it pulls oil into the loaded area of the bearing and rides up on this film much like a tire hydroplaning on wet pavement. Grooving in a bearing acts like tread in a tire to break up the oil film. While you want your tires to grip the road, you don’t want your bearings to grip the shaft. The primary reason for having any grooving in a main bearing is to provide oil to the connecting rods. Without rod bearings to feed, a simple oil hole would be sufficient to lubricate a main bearing. Many early engines used full grooved bearings and some even used multiple grooves. As engine and bearing technology developed, bearing grooving was removed from modern lower main bearings. The result is in a thicker film of oil for the shaft to ride on. This provides a greater safety margin and improved bearing life. Upper main shells, which see lower loads than the lowers, have retained a groove to supply the connecting rods with oil. In an effort to develop the best possible main bearing designs for performance engines, we’ve investigated the effects of main bearing grooving on bearing performance. The graphs illustrate that a simple 180-degree groove in the upper main shell is still the best overall design. While a slightly shorter groove of 140 degrees provides a marginal gain, most of the benefit is to the upper shell, which doesn’t need improvement. On the other hand, extending the groove into the lower half, even as little as 20 degrees at each parting line (220 degrees in total), takes away from upper bearing performance without providing any benefit to the lower half. It’s also interesting to note that as groove length increases so do horsepower loss and peak oil film pressure which is transmitted directly to the bearing.



Yep, that's the info I was referring to. Good research on their part.


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Re: Full Groove vs. 3/4 Groove Mains for BB Mopar [Re: AndyF] #3219891
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Originally Posted by AndyF
Originally Posted by 19_Dart_68
According to Mahle-Aftermarket's documentation, 3/4 groove bearings promote less HP loss and don't suffer any lubrication loss vs. Full Groove bearings.

Is there any reason to not use 3/4 groove bearings in a BB Mopar stroker engine? Or any better reason(s) to use Full Groove instead of the 3/4-groove?


I use 3/4 groove if I can find them. Sometimes it is really hard to find bearings these days so you just live with what you can get. In the old days when parts were available we used 3/4 groove on everything.


That is the way I am going. The 3/4 groove set wound up fitting much better across all of the mains than the full groove set did.


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Re: Full Groove vs. 3/4 Groove Mains for BB Mopar [Re: 19_Dart_68] #3219892
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Thanks for all the replies, all!


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Re: Full Groove vs. 3/4 Groove Mains for BB Mopar [Re: 19_Dart_68] #3223579
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So what are people opinions of 3/4 groove Speed pro 119M vs. Clevite MS-2233HG ?

Also, Has anyone ever measured bearing eccentricity ? I'm dial boring my engine bearings now to calculate clearance and don't know what to expect.

AG.


1970 Challenger w/572 Hemi street car and my pride and joy. 1986 T-Type with 272 Stage 2 Buick V6 engine - True 8 second street car. Just updated the engine and put down 928 HP @ 35# boost to the ground on chasis dyno. 1976 Cee Bee Avenger Jet Boat - 460 Ford powered.
Re: Full Groove vs. 3/4 Groove Mains for BB Mopar [Re: turbobitt] #3223583
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Bearings can be hard to find these days so you should feel lucky that you have a couple of sets to pick from.

Re: Full Groove vs. 3/4 Groove Mains for BB Mopar [Re: AndyF] #3223660
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If both of them fit (meaning no interference with the radius or the block) I would run the ones that gave me closest to the clearance I wanted.


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Re: Full Groove vs. 3/4 Groove Mains for BB Mopar [Re: rickseeman] #3223661
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I like the 119m .....they are typically cheaper.

Re: Full Groove vs. 3/4 Groove Mains for BB Mopar [Re: rickseeman] #3223667
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I don't think we are supposed to think about eccentricity. I don't believe we know anything about that nor is it something we can change. I think our job is to make sure the hole is the right size (2.9425"-2.943") and that we have the proper bearing
to crankshaft clearance in the vertical dimension.


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Re: Full Groove vs. 3/4 Groove Mains for BB Mopar [Re: turbobitt] #3223698
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It use to be the standard on the rod bearing being wider, more oil clearance at the rod joint to allow a build up of oil to, (puddle) help lubricate the bearings better as the rod rotated on the cranks wrench scope
I'm thinking between .0003 to .0005 additional clearance scope


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Re: Full Groove vs. 3/4 Groove Mains for BB Mopar [Re: Cab_Burge] #3223713
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On the 119M mains I'm seeing about .002" eccentricity and consistent from hole to hole and the housing bores are perfect so I know its in the bearings.
AG.

Last edited by turbobitt; 03/30/24 01:51 PM.

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Re: Full Groove vs. 3/4 Groove Mains for BB Mopar [Re: turbobitt] #3223736
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Is that a bad thing? What is your vertical clearance?


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Re: Full Groove vs. 3/4 Groove Mains for BB Mopar [Re: rickseeman] #3223743
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Originally Posted by rickseeman
Is that a bad thing? What is your vertical clearance?


I don't have a crank to calculate actual clearance but If I get a crank at nominal diameter than clearance will be .0025-.003( .003 on the center thrust main) . If I base it on the last K1 crank I had(main journals were slightly below min spec) than my clearance will be .0035-.004 (.004 on the center thrust main).
I had a set of full groove Clevite 877P bearings and mounted one in the #1 main to spot check and was pretty much the same.

AG.


1970 Challenger w/572 Hemi street car and my pride and joy. 1986 T-Type with 272 Stage 2 Buick V6 engine - True 8 second street car. Just updated the engine and put down 928 HP @ 35# boost to the ground on chasis dyno. 1976 Cee Bee Avenger Jet Boat - 460 Ford powered.
Re: Full Groove vs. 3/4 Groove Mains for BB Mopar [Re: AndyF] #3227177
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Originally Posted by AndyF
Bearings can be hard to find these days so you should feel lucky that you have a couple of sets to pick from.


I've noticed the same thing, any idea why?

Re: Full Groove vs. 3/4 Groove Mains for BB Mopar [Re: turbobitt] #3227189
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Originally Posted by turbobitt
Originally Posted by rickseeman
Is that a bad thing? What is your vertical clearance?


I don't have a crank to calculate actual clearance but If I get a crank at nominal diameter than clearance will be .0025-.003( .003 on the center thrust main) . If I base it on the last K1 crank I had(main journals were slightly below min spec) than my clearance will be .0035-.004 (.004 on the center thrust main).
I had a set of full groove Clevite 877P bearings and mounted one in the #1 main to spot check and was pretty much the same.

AG.

Taken from the Cleveite bearing catalogue

“The wall is thickest at 90 degrees from the split and drops off a prescribed amount toward each parting line, depending on the bearings intended application. This drop off is called “Eccentricity.” In addition, there is a relief at the parting lines. Eccentricity is used to tailor the bearing shell to its mating hardware and to provide for hardware deflections in operation. Eccentricity also helps to promote oil film formation by providing a wedge shape in the clearance space. The relief at each parting line insures that there will not be a step at the split line due to bearing cap shift or the mating of bearing shells that differ slightly in thickness within allowed tolerance limits”
Its a good read if you want to know bearing specifics..


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Re: Full Groove vs. 3/4 Groove Mains for BB Mopar [Re: W.I.N. Racing] #3227209
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Originally Posted by W.I.N. Racing
Originally Posted by turbobitt
Originally Posted by rickseeman
Is that a bad thing? What is your vertical clearance?


I don't have a crank to calculate actual clearance but If I get a crank at nominal diameter than clearance will be .0025-.003( .003 on the center thrust main) . If I base it on the last K1 crank I had(main journals were slightly below min spec) than my clearance will be .0035-.004 (.004 on the center thrust main).
I had a set of full groove Clevite 877P bearings and mounted one in the #1 main to spot check and was pretty much the same.

AG.

Taken from the Cleveite bearing catalogue

“The wall is thickest at 90 degrees from the split and drops off a prescribed amount toward each parting line, depending on the bearings intended application. This drop off is called “Eccentricity.” In addition, there is a relief at the parting lines. Eccentricity is used to tailor the bearing shell to its mating hardware and to provide for hardware deflections in operation. Eccentricity also helps to promote oil film formation by providing a wedge shape in the clearance space. The relief at each parting line insures that there will not be a step at the split line due to bearing cap shift or the mating of bearing shells that differ slightly in thickness within allowed tolerance limits”
Its a good read if you want to know bearing specifics..


Thanks but I have already read it and well aware that there is eccentricity built in but was hoping the catalogs would have more specific informataion than just low/medium/high ecentricity....
AG.


1970 Challenger w/572 Hemi street car and my pride and joy. 1986 T-Type with 272 Stage 2 Buick V6 engine - True 8 second street car. Just updated the engine and put down 928 HP @ 35# boost to the ground on chasis dyno. 1976 Cee Bee Avenger Jet Boat - 460 Ford powered.
Re: Full Groove vs. 3/4 Groove Mains for BB Mopar [Re: LSP] #3227211
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Originally Posted by LSP
Originally Posted by AndyF
Bearings can be hard to find these days so you should feel lucky that you have a couple of sets to pick from.


I've noticed the same thing, any idea why?


The same old story, global supply chain issues..... The middle east is in turmoil and King bearings is in Jerusalem from what I understand.

I was in contact with king on there +/- ,001 race main bearing sets and they tell me the production date is scheduled for 8/24.

AG/


1970 Challenger w/572 Hemi street car and my pride and joy. 1986 T-Type with 272 Stage 2 Buick V6 engine - True 8 second street car. Just updated the engine and put down 928 HP @ 35# boost to the ground on chasis dyno. 1976 Cee Bee Avenger Jet Boat - 460 Ford powered.
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