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Does the BB Mopar market really need new heads?
#3211467
02/07/24 12:44 PM
02/07/24 12:44 PM
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Joined: Dec 2021
Posts: 1,126
Loudoun County, VA
Brad_Haak
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Dec 2021
Posts: 1,126
Loudoun County, VA
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I was going to put this as a reply on the thread about the Promaxx Trick Flow 240 knock-off heads, but figured maybe this should be a separate topic.
I've never built a "serious" engine that uses components of the caliber of Predator heads. But even if somebody came up with a "more affordable" option that was 20% cheaper, wouldn't you still be faced with the higher expenses involved starting with an aftermarket block, custom valve train, etc.? At that point, it strikes me as a whole different budget to jump in that deep and a cheaper-but-comparable Predator-type cylinder head option isn't going to be the go / no go decision maker.
If one extreme is the "stock block / bolt-on component" guys like myself and the other is the "it's a full-on race engine that ignores OEM architecture" like the above concept, IMO that leaves the middle ground of people willing to use an aftermarket block for durability, but more conventional aftermarket heads like Indy 440-1 / 572-13 and original B1 to support 500++ cubes.
Of the three groups -- assuming I'm not totally off base in my assessment -- which has the most holes to fill AND an interested group of legit customers wiling to support the investment of new heads for that group? And I think the answer of "none of the above" is also a possibility.
It's 100% possible I'm talking out of a$$ here given my limited experience... but I don't think so.
2021 Challenger 6.4L Scat Pack 1320
100% stock: 1.680, 11.894 at 113.75 (DA 175 ft)
weight reduction, wheels, tires, Hellcat air box: 1.661, 11.686 at 115.97 (DA 710 ft)
1973 Challenger 452 ci street/strip [2008]
pump gas, DOT radials: 1.454, 10.523 at 126.44 (DA 514 ft)
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Re: Does the BB Mopar market really need new heads?
[Re: Brad_Haak]
#3211477
02/07/24 01:15 PM
02/07/24 01:15 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,363
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,363
Las Vegas
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My opinion NO! Who's gonna buy it? There are a lot of options out there that already are rarely used. From Indy, and Brodix to name two. Try to find let's say a set of B1 PSO heads out there running let alone for sale. They don't produce them because they cannot sell them. The price is high because its a niche market. They are a "unicorn". Hell B1 stuff in general is a pretty infrequent encounter in Mopars at tracks across the country, and outside of Ohio good luck seeing a Predator head in the wild. Having lived raced and attended races all across this country I feel fairly comfortable in my assessment.
Personally, I would LOVE to see a refined version of a predator for the already produced 4.84" bore space block. While we are wishing a new version of that block that can comfortable go 4.600+ would be great. Along eith a 2.50" intake valve. Won't happen because again who's gonna buy it? A few hardcore racers might but that don't really motivate anyone to produce such an animal. So we have what we have. My issue with predator stuff is not being able to get a bore to make the power.
The "stock" replacement market IMO is FLOODED with options. To include many Chinese knock off options already. Plenty to make more power than the majority of the Mopar community will ever need or want. For the few who want 4 digit NA power the options are out there already to do so. And have been since the 90's.
FWIW I have had pretty much every head option out there at one time or another, sans any Chinese knock offs. My current engines I would consider almost exotic by Mopar standards. I have a Predator, a 600-13 headed engine and a B1. All run really well and make good power. But most Mopar guys would call them exotic. They love to tell me how one is just a BBC in disguise. Oh yeah I have a couple of those as well.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: Does the BB Mopar market really need new heads?
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#3211489
02/07/24 01:44 PM
02/07/24 01:44 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,363
Marion, South Carolina [><]
an8sec70cuda
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,363
Marion, South Carolina [><]
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My opinion NO! Who's gonna buy it? There are a lot of options out there that already are rarely used. From Indy, and Brodix to name two. Try to find let's say a set of B1 PSO heads out there running let alone for sale. They don't produce them because they cannot sell them. The price is high because its a niche market. They are a "unicorn". Hell B1 stuff in general is a pretty infrequent encounter in Mopars at tracks across the country, and outside of Ohio good luck seeing a Predator head in the wild. Having lived raced and attended races all across this country I feel fairly comfortable in my assessment.
Personally, I would LOVE to see a refined version of a predator for the already produced 4.84" bore space block. While we are wishing a new version of that block that can comfortable go 4.600+ would be great. Along eith a 2.50" intake valve. Won't happen because again who's gonna buy it? A few hardcore racers might but that don't really motivate anyone to produce such an animal. So we have what we have. My issue with predator stuff is not being able to get a bore to make the power.
The "stock" replacement market IMO is FLOODED with options. To include many Chinese knock off options already. Plenty to make more power than the majority of the Mopar community will ever need or want. For the few who want 4 digit NA power the options are out there already to do so. And have been since the 90's.
FWIW I have had pretty much every head option out there at one time or another, sans any Chinese knock offs. My current engines I would consider almost exotic by Mopar standards. I have a Predator, a 600-13 headed engine and a B1. All run really well and make good power. But most Mopar guys would call them exotic. They love to tell me how one is just a BBC in disguise. Oh yeah I have a couple of those as well.
 The parts are available to build Mopars...for now anyways. We need more people building them...that's the problem. There are too many options, in my opinion, for the 700 hp and under builds. Above that the options get thinner, but they're there. You just don't see many of them. Aftermarket blocks have always been an issue. Still are to some extent since there's what, 4 options? One being KB, which seems to be a crapshoot.
CHIP
'70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60
'69 road runner, 440-6, 18 spline 4 speed, Dana 60
'71 Demon, 340, low gear 904, 8.75
'73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75
'90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt
'06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
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Re: Does the BB Mopar market really need new heads?
[Re: an8sec70cuda]
#3211504
02/07/24 02:01 PM
02/07/24 02:01 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,174
PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,174
PA.
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Most guys are happy running 8’s and slower which can easily be done NA. With the same parts and a power adder you can go a lot quicker. Heck my Edelbrock headed 408 bracket engine would be in the 8’s with a small hit of spray.
1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: Does the BB Mopar market really need new heads?
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#3211526
02/07/24 02:52 PM
02/07/24 02:52 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,676
On the parachute mount
n20mstr
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,676
On the parachute mount
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My opinion NO! Who's gonna buy it? There are a lot of options out there that already are rarely used. From Indy, and Brodix to name two. Try to find let's say a set of B1 PSO heads out there running let alone for sale. They don't produce them because they cannot sell them. The price is high because its a niche market. They are a "unicorn". Hell B1 stuff in general is a pretty infrequent encounter in Mopars at tracks across the country, and outside of Ohio good luck seeing a Predator head in the wild. Having lived raced and attended races all across this country I feel fairly comfortable in my assessment.
Personally, I would LOVE to see a refined version of a predator for the already produced 4.84" bore space block. While we are wishing a new version of that block that can comfortable go 4.600+ would be great. Along eith a 2.50" intake valve. Won't happen because again who's gonna buy it? A few hardcore racers might but that don't really motivate anyone to produce such an animal. So we have what we have. My issue with predator stuff is not being able to get a bore to make the power.
The "stock" replacement market IMO is FLOODED with options. To include many Chinese knock off options already. Plenty to make more power than the majority of the Mopar community will ever need or want. For the few who want 4 digit NA power the options are out there already to do so. And have been since the 90's.
FWIW I have had pretty much every head option out there at one time or another, sans any Chinese knock offs. My current engines I would consider almost exotic by Mopar standards. I have a Predator, a 600-13 headed engine and a B1. All run really well and make good power. But most Mopar guys would call them exotic. They love to tell me how one is just a BBC in disguise. Oh yeah I have a couple of those as well.
4 digit power ..... or class racing that requires a 'stock valve layout" head there are otions BUT the B1 technology is how old , 40?? years. Al you class race, you know there are heads for GM and Ford that are light years ahead of the B1 technology. HOWEVER all you have to do is ask, and keep asking and you might get what you need to compete. Any way thats a ll a moot point as yes its a niche market and honestly how many people are out there building Big Block mopars to comepete in heads up stuff??? VERY FEW . Now boosted combos thats a different story becasue a boosted Big Block Mopar.....that can make serious power, but most sanctioning bodies dont allow boosted big block mopars.
Last edited by n20mstr; 02/07/24 02:53 PM.
....BAD A$$ STREET CAR.....
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Re: Does the BB Mopar market really need new heads?
[Re: n20mstr]
#3211545
02/07/24 03:28 PM
02/07/24 03:28 PM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,161
CT
GTX MATT
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,161
CT
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Honestly I ageee - there are heads available to beat the mains out of a stock block. $500 one way or the other isn’t going to break the bank on what is needed for a build to make 800+ HP.
More affordable blocks would help more, but at least we can get blocks (I think?)
If I buy a block I’m building a Hemi though.
Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
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Re: Does the BB Mopar market really need new heads?
[Re: GTX MATT]
#3211562
02/07/24 03:53 PM
02/07/24 03:53 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,363
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,363
Las Vegas
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How many of you have EVER priced a GOOD Chebbie aluminum SB or BB. I can tell you in the Vette the aluminum block was MORE than ANY of the Mopar blocks out there.
Blocks are out there and available. Maybe not at a cost most like but they are out there. I have two Indy block based engine and one KB based one as well as a World block just chillin in the corner. IMO the BMP block is aimed at the resto and decent performance market now. As its basically only available as a stock replacement block. Iron is out there to with Energy and SS guys have JL stuff to use. The parts are out there to make a good running Mopar..You just gotta have the "want to"
FWIW I have been low 7's in an NA Mopar in a door car a dragster. It aint rocket science, especially in a dragster. My son has been quicker and if he were still racing the new engine sitting on the floor would put the car solidly in the 6's. It just as stated requires "want to"
As for option for other makes I 100% agree with that. Also a much large audience for sales. But to go as fast we do in the world we are it is not cheap as none of them are. In our case the engine programs are a huge cost and most are unique and built for one purpose.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: Does the BB Mopar market really need new heads?
[Re: GTX MATT]
#3211568
02/07/24 04:00 PM
02/07/24 04:00 PM
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Joined: Dec 2021
Posts: 1,126
Loudoun County, VA
Brad_Haak
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Dec 2021
Posts: 1,126
Loudoun County, VA
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More affordable blocks would help more, but at least we can get blocks (I think?)
We just need a lot more people to raffle them off after deciding not to use the ones they bought Given a Bill Miller alum block is close to $7K now, that's likely the only way I'll end up with one
2021 Challenger 6.4L Scat Pack 1320
100% stock: 1.680, 11.894 at 113.75 (DA 175 ft)
weight reduction, wheels, tires, Hellcat air box: 1.661, 11.686 at 115.97 (DA 710 ft)
1973 Challenger 452 ci street/strip [2008]
pump gas, DOT radials: 1.454, 10.523 at 126.44 (DA 514 ft)
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Re: Does the BB Mopar market really need new heads?
[Re: GTX MATT]
#3211574
02/07/24 04:22 PM
02/07/24 04:22 PM
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Joined: May 2014
Posts: 179
California, U.S.A.
Torquemonster440
member
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member
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 179
California, U.S.A.
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I think the dilemma lies in the instance where, it's so easy to build a 500+ci BBM nowadays. $2,500 for a 4.25" rotating assembly!! Awesome !!... then you wind up having to squeeze all that air through a standard port head, which is already undersized on a factory 440. Further hindering your RPM potential. Finding a top end assembly that will support those cubes and not cost 2-3x what the rotating assembly did.... does not exist. I guess you just gotta pay to play in the BBM market. If you upgraded your 500ci build to TF270's you're over 6k when you're done. Heads : $1,500 each 4500 Intake : $ 500 4500 carb : $1,000 Recommend Harland Sharp Rockers : $ 1,400 Pushrods- $ 150 Valley plate - $150 Already at $6,200 in parts. You might need new headers depending on your chassis.. another $1,000... And this is just for the Trick Flow stuff.. considered budget vs what you would spend on a B1 or Indy setup. But then you're talking aftermarket block at that point. Idk.. guess I just need to be happy with my home ported Promaxx knockoffs on my 505. Lol.. it runs good and I have fun. But will never be comparable power wise vs a similarly built BBC. Unless I mortgage the house. 
1966 Satellie.. 12.55 @107.75. 906 heads. 3780 lbs.
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Re: Does the BB Mopar market really need new heads?
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#3211600
02/07/24 05:41 PM
02/07/24 05:41 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,363
Marion, South Carolina [><]
an8sec70cuda
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,363
Marion, South Carolina [><]
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The chevy stuff isn't as cheap as most think it is, there's just more of it. The cheap stuff is junk, no matter the brand. There are $200 roller rocker sets for BB Mopars, but we all know they're garbage.
The good thing about chevy stuff is there are used parts for sale everywhere just b/c so many people run them.
Good heads, intakes, rockers, etc. are expensive whether it's for a 454 or a 440.
Once you get into the big power stuff...all brands are expensive.
CHIP
'70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60
'69 road runner, 440-6, 18 spline 4 speed, Dana 60
'71 Demon, 340, low gear 904, 8.75
'73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75
'90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt
'06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
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Re: Does the BB Mopar market really need new heads?
[Re: Torquemonster440]
#3211606
02/07/24 05:50 PM
02/07/24 05:50 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 760
Southington Ct.
turbobitt
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 760
Southington Ct.
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I think the market is ripe for a clean sheet canted valve, ball stud hemi, or whatever you want to call it. Symmetrical port layout would just utilize Hemi core cams. Valvetrain could easily barrow Chevy of Ford rockers stud mounted rockers.
For example, I just bought a set of Ford SR-71 heads for my jet boat. These heads are insanely nice The castings are fast as-cast with Intake port flow over 400 CFM and would probably benefit very little from porting and the pricing was way more reasonable than any chevy or mopar head. I paid $2900 for a pair of heads with valves ,no spring package. When I look at this head, the architecture just looks like it could easily be adapted to a RB block.
AG.
1970 Challenger w/572 Hemi street car and my pride and joy.
1986 T-Type with 272 Stage 2 Buick V6 engine - True 8 second street car. Just updated the engine and put down 928 HP @ 35# boost to the ground on chasis dyno.
1976 Cee Bee Avenger Jet Boat - 460 Ford powered.
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Re: Does the BB Mopar market really need new heads?
[Re: turbobitt]
#3211620
02/07/24 06:42 PM
02/07/24 06:42 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,139
Melbourne , Australia
LA360
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,139
Melbourne , Australia
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As I was trying to point out in the other thread:
- How many OEM configuration heads that make 6-750 HP do you actually need in the market? You've got Indy, Trickflow, Edelbrock and all the chinese knockoffs. There have been others, but they're no longer being made, because no one bought them for whatever reason. What's available is now is the same architecture to the factory stuff, they're essentially just updates, the Trickflows being the most recent.
Some points from this thread:
- On the upper end of the scale, How many Mopar guys are actually class racing? Other than Al, and maybe Tony, How many people have actually seen a B1 PSO head in person? Someone has to sign the cheques for this stuff to be made. It's either in sales or someone really wanting to go racing. Ford coming back in to Pro Stock for that short while, only happened because Jim Cunningham signed the cheques for Ford.
- As Predator heads aren't walking out the door every week, I'd argue there isn't a market for another splayed valve BBM head.
- Chevy stuff is so much cheaper, that may be the case with some of it, but that would be an economy of scale, which the Mopar market doesn't have. High end stuff, costs high end money, regardless of whether it's a Ford, Chevrolet, Buick or whatever.
Alan Jones
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Re: Does the BB Mopar market really need new heads?
[Re: LA360]
#3211655
02/07/24 08:17 PM
02/07/24 08:17 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,835
MI, usa
dvw
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,835
MI, usa
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For the average racer that has a family and a budget most are bracket racing. Heads up stuff isn't just about the money, which is definately out reach for many. Its also about an incredible amount of work along with being very intelligent. The parts to be on the quick side of no Box/Pro or with something lighter in Box/Super Pro exist. To be honest there are very few non chassis N/A bracket cars that run in the 8's. Chevy, Ford, or Mopar. For heads up class stuff with a Mopar you are better of running a SB, Hemi, or Gen 3 Hemi. I love my BB wedge stuff. But don't think we're ever going to see much in the line of a state of the art head in BB wedge form. The reason you see the type of head we have now is there are still plenty of stock blocks around. But they won't take 4 digit power. So the available heads fit the bill. New style heads? That means along with these modern heads you need a block. Stock bore spacing limits valve size. So now you are in a entire new world. So you use whats out there. Canted valve BB chevy knock off. Or Gen 2 Hemi knock off. Try finding a original 427 FE,
B O P 455, Cadillac, 390/401 AMC. Lets face it. The most powerful stuff is aftermarket Hemi. Blocks, heads, cranks, valve gear are all available in the finest quality. Your wish is granted.
Doug
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Re: Does the BB Mopar market really need new heads?
[Re: Brad_Haak]
#3211664
02/07/24 08:31 PM
02/07/24 08:31 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,027
Oregon
AndyF
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,027
Oregon
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I'm not really aware of a gap in the Mopar big block head line up. Most customers I deal with are happy with the Trick Flow 240. A few of them want to step up to MW heads so then they can choose TF270 or move to the Indy platform. The Indy platform extends up to the 900-1000 hp range with the 440-1 345 and the 572-13.
Personally I don't focus much on the 1000+ hp customers since they are so rare. I've never actually had a customer who wanted to build a 1000+ hp Mopar big block. Everyone I've worked with personally over the last 20 years has been shooting for something in the 600 to 900 range and there are well proven combinations that cover that power range.
Last edited by AndyF; 02/07/24 08:31 PM.
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