Re: Flying magnet crank trigger VS dist., ATI magnet damper
[Re: A39Coronet]
#3195047
12/03/23 09:20 AM
12/03/23 09:20 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,917 A shed in England
Tig
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master
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Posts: 2,917
A shed in England
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In an NA application, I can't imagine it would make any difference on the time slip. Should help with consistency though, If you use traction control (which is an option on some of the digital ignition / FI units available now) stable timing is a must.
'74 Challenger..9.46 @ 145.9 1/4, 6.001 @ 118 1/8 so far. 4023lb !!! # N/A, Marsh performance 655ci, Indy Maxx, T/R, Indy 600-13 X's, Street legal, pump gas, full interior, Cal-Tracs, mufflers, 3:73's and real 10.5 radials. 9.51 @ 142.4 1/4, 6.003 @ 114 1/8 with our old mule KB, 572-13, 580 wedge. RHD '68 Barracuda Fastback 323ci street/strip. Best ET 13.88 @ 99.03
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Re: Flying magnet crank trigger VS dist., ATI magnet damper
[Re: Tig]
#3195113
12/03/23 01:52 PM
12/03/23 01:52 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,363 Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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A crank trigger is going to make a difference in ANY combo. If you are trying to go fast the last thing you need is timing being inconsistent.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: Flying magnet crank trigger VS dist., ATI magnet damper
[Re: CMcAllister]
#3195168
12/03/23 05:27 PM
12/03/23 05:27 PM
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Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,111 Usa
A39Coronet
super stock
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super stock
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Usa
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In an NA application, I can't imagine it would make any difference on the time slip. Unless you're running nitrous on the ragged edge, what's the justification for it? Rock steady timing is neat, but if your timing jumps around that much you need a new chain. Chain, gear slop, driveshaft moving around, oil pump affecting the whole mess. Plus cam twist if it's a small block. If you're okay with it moving around a couple degrees, then it doesn't matter. Crank trigger, what you see with a timing light is like a snapshot. Zero movement. With the ignition stuff available now, you can set the base timing ahead of where you want it and dial in a retard curve. Some guys I know are using various amounts of retard at different places on the track. No reason it couldn't be done on the street. Even dialing in the timing precisely on each cylinder, if you are collecting data. Yeah I get where all the "slop" could come from, but does it make a drop in the oceans worth of difference on a time slip? Especially in a motor that's owned by someone who's going to spend money to add a crank trigger (ie fairly tight motor without 100k miles)? I'll wait for Engine Masters to prove it but I seriously doubt it. Certainly not enough to make the cost worth it.
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Re: Flying magnet crank trigger VS dist., ATI magnet damper
[Re: A39Coronet]
#3195184
12/03/23 06:16 PM
12/03/23 06:16 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,552 Fulton County, PA
CMcAllister
Mr. Helpful
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Mr. Helpful
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,552
Fulton County, PA
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In an NA application, I can't imagine it would make any difference on the time slip. Unless you're running nitrous on the ragged edge, what's the justification for it? Rock steady timing is neat, but if your timing jumps around that much you need a new chain. Chain, gear slop, driveshaft moving around, oil pump affecting the whole mess. Plus cam twist if it's a small block. If you're okay with it moving around a couple degrees, then it doesn't matter. Crank trigger, what you see with a timing light is like a snapshot. Zero movement. With the ignition stuff available now, you can set the base timing ahead of where you want it and dial in a retard curve. Some guys I know are using various amounts of retard at different places on the track. No reason it couldn't be done on the street. Even dialing in the timing precisely on each cylinder, if you are collecting data. Yeah I get where all the "slop" could come from, but does it make a drop in the oceans worth of difference on a time slip? Especially in a motor that's owned by someone who's going to spend money to add a crank trigger (ie fairly tight motor without 100k miles)? I'll wait for Engine Masters to prove it but I seriously doubt it. Certainly not enough to make the cost worth it. I guess it depends. Do you want to know it moved 2, and not 3 or 4, when you wanted to bump it 2? Are you trying to optimize what you have or OK with just changing the number on the window? Are you looking for tenths or hundredths? Do you need to be able to control the timing at every part of the track? Is consistency important?
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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Re: Flying magnet crank trigger VS dist., ATI magnet damper
[Re: dvw]
#3195243
12/03/23 11:15 PM
12/03/23 11:15 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,489 Minnesota
Hemi_Joel
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OP
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Minnesota
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[img]http://i.imgur.com/boeexFms.jpg[/img]31 Plymouth Coupe, 392 Hemi, T56 magnum RS23J71 RS27J77 RP23J71 RO23J71 WM21J8A I don't regret the things I've done. I only regret the things I didn't do. "Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something. ~ Plato"
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Re: Flying magnet crank trigger VS dist., ATI magnet damper
[Re: dvw]
#3195246
12/03/23 11:51 PM
12/03/23 11:51 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,552 Fulton County, PA
CMcAllister
Mr. Helpful
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Mr. Helpful
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,552
Fulton County, PA
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With a crank trigger you can use any beater distributor. The cost yhen is very close. i bought a close out 440 source billet ball bearing unit with no elctronics for $25 Doug Hint...old Mopar Lean Burn distributors were solid shaft, no advance, spinning a reluctor and a rotor button. Period. Pull the reluctor/plate/guts, and voila, you have a perfect crank trigger distributor. Probably for free if you can find one.
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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Re: Flying magnet crank trigger VS dist., ATI magnet damper
[Re: CMcAllister]
#3195249
12/04/23 01:28 AM
12/04/23 01:28 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,027 Oregon
AndyF
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I Win
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Oregon
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Yes, I used a Lean Burn distributor once a long time ago. But I grew tired of the crappy spark plug wire ends that those old distributors had so eventually I switched over to a locked out MSD. After that I migrated to a belt drive distributor. The belt drive distributor solved a bunch of issues although it did create a couple in the process.
Last edited by AndyF; 12/04/23 01:28 AM.
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Re: Flying magnet crank trigger VS dist., ATI magnet damper
[Re: AndyF]
#3195257
12/04/23 07:18 AM
12/04/23 07:18 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,022 MN
JERICOGTX
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The ATI dampner with magnets is the way to go. I used Andy's bracket that also has a pointer on it. It really cleans everything up nice.
As for why run a crank trigger? Well some engines are that finicky on timing. Some will see decent gains, just by 1/2 degree of timing. Only way to do that is with a crank trigger.
69 GTX
68 Road Runner
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Re: Flying magnet crank trigger VS dist., ATI magnet damper
[Re: AndyF]
#3195290
12/04/23 12:17 PM
12/04/23 12:17 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,363 Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
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I Live Here
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Can guarantee with 100% certaintly that if we end up with an extra degree of timing at certain point in a run we will melt parts..But thats what happens when you are in an all out venture. We add timing on a run, a LOT of timing in lower gears. If for some reason we end up with to much in high gear the engine is very unhappy. The amount of fuel we run in the engine combined with its octane and will defintely hurt parts with to much, Yep even a degree or two will kill parts.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: Flying magnet crank trigger VS dist., ATI magnet damper
[Re: JERICOGTX]
#3195310
12/04/23 02:02 PM
12/04/23 02:02 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,917 A shed in England
Tig
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,917
A shed in England
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The ATI dampner with magnets is the way to go. I used Andy's bracket that also has a pointer on it. It really cleans everything up nice.
As for why run a crank trigger? Well some engines are that finicky on timing. Some will see decent gains, just by 1/2 degree of timing. Only way to do that is with a crank trigger. They look great and I thought of using one of those but we swap the crank trigger stuff between 2 engines.
'74 Challenger..9.46 @ 145.9 1/4, 6.001 @ 118 1/8 so far. 4023lb !!! # N/A, Marsh performance 655ci, Indy Maxx, T/R, Indy 600-13 X's, Street legal, pump gas, full interior, Cal-Tracs, mufflers, 3:73's and real 10.5 radials. 9.51 @ 142.4 1/4, 6.003 @ 114 1/8 with our old mule KB, 572-13, 580 wedge. RHD '68 Barracuda Fastback 323ci street/strip. Best ET 13.88 @ 99.03
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Re: Flying magnet crank trigger VS dist., ATI magnet damper
[Re: CMcAllister]
#3195387
12/04/23 10:12 PM
12/04/23 10:12 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,270 Morrow, OH
markz528
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master
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Morrow, OH
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With a crank trigger you can use any beater distributor. The cost yhen is very close. i bought a close out 440 source billet ball bearing unit with no elctronics for $25 Doug Hint...old Mopar Lean Burn distributors were solid shaft, no advance, spinning a reluctor and a rotor button. Period. Pull the reluctor/plate/guts, and voila, you have a perfect crank trigger distributor. Probably for free if you can find one. Yup. What I use.
67 Coronet 500 9.610 @ 139.20 mph 67 Coronet 500 (street car) 14.82 @ 94 mph 69 GTX (clone) - build in progress......
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Re: Flying magnet crank trigger VS dist., ATI magnet damper
[Re: markz528]
#3195407
12/05/23 12:01 AM
12/05/23 12:01 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,489 Minnesota
Hemi_Joel
OP
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Minnesota
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Lots of good info here. Thanks everyone for all the replies!
[img]http://i.imgur.com/boeexFms.jpg[/img]31 Plymouth Coupe, 392 Hemi, T56 magnum RS23J71 RS27J77 RP23J71 RO23J71 WM21J8A I don't regret the things I've done. I only regret the things I didn't do. "Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something. ~ Plato"
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Re: Flying magnet crank trigger VS dist., ATI magnet damper
[Re: A39Coronet]
#3195540
12/05/23 07:20 PM
12/05/23 07:20 PM
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 324 Northport, al.
tvt59
enthusiast
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enthusiast
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Northport, al.
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I spoke with Kent Ritter about this subject just last week. My engine builder is recommending that I go to a crank trigger on our next build . Kent said that is was not necessary for my application . My car is a low 9 second braket car with an alcohol carb.
Nothing worth anything comes easy. It is always harder to do the right thing.
My Grandfather
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Re: Flying magnet crank trigger VS dist., ATI magnet damper
[Re: tvt59]
#3195553
12/05/23 08:42 PM
12/05/23 08:42 PM
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,075 Michigan
A727Tflite
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Michigan
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I spoke with Kent Ritter about this subject just last week. My engine builder is recommending that I go to a crank trigger on our next build . Kent said that is was not necessary for my application . My car is a low 9 second braket car with an alcohol carb. When is it ever “necessary” ?
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Re: Flying magnet crank trigger VS dist., ATI magnet damper
[Re: A727Tflite]
#3195832
12/07/23 09:47 AM
12/07/23 09:47 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,363 Marion, South Carolina [><]
an8sec70cuda
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I spoke with Kent Ritter about this subject just last week. My engine builder is recommending that I go to a crank trigger on our next build . Kent said that is was not necessary for my application . My car is a low 9 second braket car with an alcohol carb. When is it ever “necessary” ? It's necessary when you are pulling a lot of timing out (nitrous/boost) to keep the rotor phased or when you have a very timing sensitive combo that you're running on the ragged edge.
CHIP '70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60 '69 road runner, 440-6, 18 spline 4 speed, Dana 60 '71 Demon, 340, low gear 904, 8.75 '73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75 '90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt '06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
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Re: Flying magnet crank trigger VS dist., ATI magnet damper
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#3195858
12/07/23 11:07 AM
12/07/23 11:07 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,165 Plymouth, MI
Blusmbl
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Plymouth, MI
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Can guarantee with 100% certaintly that if we end up with an extra degree of timing at certain point in a run we will melt parts..But thats what happens when you are in an all out venture. We add timing on a run, a LOT of timing in lower gears. If for some reason we end up with to much in high gear the engine is very unhappy. The amount of fuel we run in the engine combined with its octane and will defintely hurt parts with to much, Yep even a degree or two will kill parts. To add to this, a friend of mine has run a grudge racing turned LDR car in our local heads up series for the last decade or so, it was a 23* conventional SBC with a few kits for a while, then moved to a big block with a couple foggers. A degree of timing on his combo was sometimes the difference of a clean pass or an oil pan smashing wheelie. Stuff on the ragged edge is really that sensitive! Low compression and low output is totally different, it's got a tuning window you can drive a truck through, lol
'18 Ford Raptor, random motorcycles, 1968 Plymouth Fury III - 11.37 @ 118
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Re: Flying magnet crank trigger VS dist., ATI magnet damper
[Re: an8sec70cuda]
#3195874
12/07/23 11:56 AM
12/07/23 11:56 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,027 Oregon
AndyF
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
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Oregon
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I spoke with Kent Ritter about this subject just last week. My engine builder is recommending that I go to a crank trigger on our next build . Kent said that is was not necessary for my application . My car is a low 9 second braket car with an alcohol carb. When is it ever “necessary” ? It's necessary when you are pulling a lot of timing out (nitrous/boost) to keep the rotor phased or when you have a very timing sensitive combo that you're running on the ragged edge. Good point about rotor phasing. That is one big benefit of splitting the distributor from the timing pickup. With a crank trigger and a belt drive distributor the rotor is always exactly where it needs to be regardless of what the timing is doing.
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