i don't know how or why I get into these situations but they seem to find me
68 GTS 383 4 Spd. Owner took it to a shop as he felt the clutch was slipping. One of them selected a Mcleod Diaphragm street level clutch and installed it. When he went to pick up the car, the clutch chattered violently. Its the only word I can think of to describe how it came in to me. The shop tried several different things including modifying the clutch linkage. I do not know if they resurfaced the flywheel or not After several attempts to correct the problem the owner became frustrated and took it to another shop.
They resurfaced the flywheel to a Mirror finish ( Never seen that before?) And proceeded to install a new LUK diaphragm clutch and disc. They reworked the Z-bar and mounts again. it appears to be functioning but is not straight across. They also tried several different things and gave the car back to him at no charge.
I did a little tuning on the motor as it was running poorly and missing.
It definitely helped a bit but the chatter is still horrible and violent. Think of rear bad wheel hop, but worse
So far I have done the following:
1. Checked the motor and trans mounts. The trans mount is a bit soft but still in 1 piece. Cross member is tight
2. Removed the Override spring
3. Adjusted the clutch as it was way to high and not releasing completely (PP was actually preloaded a reasonable amount).
4. Checked all the rear spring bolts and mounts. He said they were replaced about 7 years ago with springs from espo and urethane bushings. Everything was tight and all the spring clamps were in place and tight.
5. Checked Crankshaft endplay (.007)
6. Checked pressure plate clearance at 6 places. All at .057 with feeler gauges
7. Checked clutch disc runout. All seemed even again at .057 with feeler gauges.
8. Checked the bellhousing as best as possible in the car
9. Checked the bellhousing bolts
I have not checked the pinion angle yet.

This is happening in forward and reverse while trying to let the clutch out normally from a stop. Once moving the owner says it's fine (not sure if that includes downshifting?
taking off in second (3:91's) helps but have to slip the clutch a bit.
The only thing I've noted so far is the mirror finish on the flywheel which I've never seen before
In closing, The wife commented that she could visibly see the back of the springs reacting to the chatter.
Any ideas before I pull the trans and clutch ?
TIA

Could a polished flywheel cause the disc surface to become "glazed"?
Aren't they supposed to be machined and not ground?

I’ve had two customers come in with the same complaint that hated there diaphragm clutches. I changed them both to the OEM Borge and Beck design and they left smooth happy. I won’t install a diaphragm in any car I work on. Some people like them but I don’t. The ratio of the clutch release for a mopar is too fast for a diaphragm. Sounds like he’s got several problems envolved here.

I have had poor results with the diaphragm clutches also. Other guys I know have had good results with them, I think you are onto something with the surface of the flywheel. Maybe a contaminated clutch disc?

Have to wonder what kind of 1/2 azz shop installs a new clutch without resurfacing the flywheel.30 years a a master tech and never did that since I was like 20 and had no $$$ etc.As for a diaphram we run them in our cars.Mine 20 years and counting behind my built 440.Sons in his built 360 truck has been in forever but just started driving this year when he got it out of storage.We run CF setups and never a problem Have installed them in other Mopars also and they work.Id say flywhell is the problem as that is what mostly causes chatter.

Every 4 speed gm I've worked on with diaph. was like that, the one car has been through 3 of them. Some of them not bas bad as others. Get that p.o.s out of there and put in what the Chrysler engineers. put in there. Is my 2 cents. Its not the finish, my buddys L34 70 Chevelle has been ground every time. I have done a few in my brake lathe for other apps and they were fine.

That being said, you could refinish/grind, and try another brand, I would like to try a centerforce next in the Chevelle.

If you really pay attention, Diaphragms all do it to some varying degree.


There is some bias hidden in there.


p.s. I typed this before saw the last post.

Interesting - I've never had a problem with diaphragm clutches, or B&B - main difference to me was the B&Bs have higher pedal effort.
I like Centerforce for diaphragms.
Mirror-finish flywheel is something I've never seen; seems to me that would cause slippage, then heat, which would then accumulate disc-material deposits, then chatter.

If the flywheel had burned hot spots before grinding that could be your problem. Those spots get case hardened DEEP into the face so even after re surfacing they are still there even if you can’t see. I’d get a new wheel, case closed. Had the problem in my 64 (b and b) thought the dash was going to break, new flywheel, fixed,

Anyone replace the pilot bushing? Like others, the flywheel finish is too smooth to me. Also, the clamping force of the pressure plate may be weak. Another thing: is the disc flat with no Marcel? Marcel is the wavy spring between the linings. If it's flat, uncompressed, you can't fart around on working the clutch. In or out, no slipping. If you see the wavy spring between the linings uncompressed, its got Marcel.

The problem isn't a diaphragm clutch, been running them for years with zero issues in place of the overly stiff OEM setup. I got three daughters, teaching them to drive stick was much easier lol.

Odds are it's the flywheel as others have mentioned. We already know a "mirror finish" is the wrong one for a flywheel. Now what damage that may have caused, to the disc, well you will have to inspect and make that call.

With this setup I would assume nothing was done right before you got it so go from that position and fix what we know is wrong, then test.

Some other things to check that come to mind. Is the car using all of the components, other than clutch assy, that it came with from Ma Mopar? Or is it a mix and match? Did someone swap in an a-body A engine trans in and not know that the B engine trans use the larger from bearing retainer which is bb/hemi only? Giving you hotdog in the hallway since the A trans uses the smaller retainer therefore trans to bell housing alignment is not happening.

Going to have to comment here, later A bodies used the large retainer, think A833OD. You can easily swap in a large retainer where the small one used to be., I believe both Brewer's and Passon have them.

But you hit on a good point we know someone has monkeyed with the linkages in a effort to fix the problem, that might be part of the issue as well. However, his plate departure numbers look good so maybe not.

Had the same problem recently and it turned out to be a dry pilot bushing.

First off, a bigthank you to all that replied.
The car is an original big block GTS
*My understanding is the 1st shop DID NOT resurface the Flywheel when installing the Mcleod
clutch.
*The second shop did with the LUK clutch.
* Both shops monkeyed with the Linkage/ Z bar.
*There are 2- Z bars in the trunk along with a multitude of linkage parts/mounts
*I have installed over a 100 Centerforce clutches in a many different Pre 1980 makes and models with only 1 issue. Long story but once it was removed the issue was apparent and an admitted error on their part
* I also have never seen a mirror finish on a flywheel. New, Used, or Resurfaced. I do know "Street Clutches" normally require a 500 or so miles of normal driving to break the clutch in. This, was taught to me years ago, this wears the rough surface on the PP & FW down while transferring clutch materiel to both.
*I thought possibly this was a new technology or something applicable to Race only applications
*Good thought on the input bearing retainer, it is the correct one. Had more than one bit by that one on chevy's. One was quite funny as I suggested a blow-proof and said owner said no as it was a #'s matching car, 6 mo's later it needed a new trans due to the mentioned issue. It BTW had a truck bellhousing with a larger opening 🙄 🤣

What really Dyson's(keeping it clean,LOL) is I have 2 new clutch assembly's with less than 25 miles on them and I can't use either with any level of confidence.

My thoughts at this time are
1. Try to seat the clutch in by taking off in 2nd or 3rd gear without getting it too hot. Or
2. New PP, disc, flywheel and clutch linkage
I'll attach a few pic's of what was in the trunk. I should mention there is another hacked up clutch linkage still in the car I did note inside the Mcleod box was a warning label (see pic below) . I do not know if it was better, worse, or the same with that clutch. But at the present time I would anticipate spot welds starting to break within a very short time.
IT IS THAT BAD.

Any other thoughts, opinions or input is welcomed

How about a picture of the Zbar set up on the car?

I went to McLeod's site and looked up the instructions



And, maybe also relevant

The first thing I would check is the runout of the flywheel. The only thing that usually causes chatter is warped surface or hot spots on the flywheel. You also need to check the surface of the crank flange for runout. This is unlikely though because from what I read from the post it was only slipping with no chatter. That PP you have in the picture looks fine to me because I have run worse than that before with no chatter.
I would try another "known good" flywheel if you can find one. I have also seen this issue when someone let the transmission hang from the bell while searching for the bolts, it had warped the hub on the disc.

Gus

here's a few, it' functioning but misaligned . As near as I can measure in the car,
the lower arm to the clutch fork is about 4.0" center of the pin to center of the tube.
the upper is about 5-5.5". It's hard to get and exact with it in place.
The availability of replacements appears slim. I am hoping either someone can confirm the measurements from a known BB z bar or possibly have one they can part with. Right now i don't know what I have

Originally the owner thought it was slipping, the Chatter started after the replacement(s) . My concern with using the PP & disc is if there is an issue I get to change it again.

Thank you, hadn't had a chance to do so but confirms what has been said. I'll attach a pic of the flywheel wher you can clearly see the reflections of the PP

I have a 69 383 GTS factory 4 speed car, Mopar used the only A body trans that was available behind the 383, small bearing retainer which was bolted to the 67 down small bearing retainer bellhousing used behind all big blocks of the time ... even the early Hemi trans had the small retainer and 307 bearings .... There was no B engine specific transmission for the A body .

Looking at the pictures of the linkage parts pile I see the original spacer that goes under the Z bracket attached to the bellhousing , it's got the turquoise paint on it. You should check the thickness of the replacement one that is on the car vs the stock one.

My car is a little buried at the moment , I'll see if I can get under the hood to get a look at how the Z bar is , but the angle there look a little extreme to me, though it's got a ball on both ends some some misalignment shouldn't be too critical ???

I bought a H code 1969 GTS in the early 1990s minus the original motor, tranny and shifter, console, and tach and exhausts system, I didn't know at that time it was GTS due to the car having all the GTS emblems and decals remove long before I bought it the first time. I ended up putting a late 383 4 speed motor and A body 4 speed in the car with a bunch of mismatched clutch linkage parts and a scatter shield with a 11.0 inch racing type clutch and pressure plate I had at that time, needless to say it didn't work well and was hard to shift smoothly I found out it was a GTS, not a GT , on the day the new owner picked the car up by decoding the original fender tag
I ended up buying it back later and started trying to put it back to like it was built, the other owner had replaced the old misfitting mechanical clutch linkage with a hydraulic clutch kit which I didn't like. I bought new OEM clutch linkage parts from Brewers, I think, and replace the scatter shield and 11.0 inch clutch with a 1965 B body 10.5 inch clutch bellhousing and a Center Force diaphragm type street clutch and pressure plate. That helped a bunch on the shifting cleanly.
My message is it looks like to me that you have a bunch of mismatch parts that aren't working well together, I took one picture of my car the way it is now, not perfect with all the OEM parts but is has everything except the original 383 bell housing which does affect the original type Z bar alignment, see the attach picture.
I wish I could take a picture of the Z bar and clutch rod, but I can't right now, sorry
The clutch rod alignment is critical, it needs to be straight and level to work properly, my Z bar is misaligned a little bit probably due to the wrong year bell housing , it should be straight across from the ball on the bell housing, not a little bit misaligned like it is now
IHTHs
There is one thing you should check closely on the clutch disc to flywheel clearance, it should have at least .030 or more clearance between the flywheel and clutch disc with the clutch pedal depress all the way to the floor.
Please let us know what you find and due to fix it

Cab , the BB A body used the same bellhousing as the 65 B body , 2468372 casting number

Once again, a big thanks to all.

Cab, The clearance has been measured in several places between the PP with the disc on one position and again with the PP stationary and rotating the disc. all measurements were even at ~ .057"
John, I know the linkage is Bubbafied and plan on straightening that out and getting back to factory if I can find or make the parts. I can't be sure but do not think the linkage is causing the issue. it's hosed up but does appear to be functioning. Locating a correct Z bar is likely going to be the biggest problem.


I don't know what what or why they had to butcher up the original Z bar. But that part currently does not appear to be available so far. I need to do a deeper search but so far no luck everywhere I've looked and brewer's is out of stock. Any suggestions are welcome

my next choices are:
1. Find a correct used one which I'm not sure how one identifies what is correct
2. Possibly find someone that has one out of the car that can take measurements of the Arms from the center of the tube to the center of the pin. I can then see what is in the assortment of parts as well as the one in the car. With the measurements I can likely make one of the three work.

Unfortunately what appears to be the original has had one of the two arms whacked off. THANKS BUBBA

I would obviously trust one from Brewers but not sure who else one could trust from a repro standpoint. Which member was the Dart specialist parts guy? DBartman or Rhinodart?
Thanks again

Rhinodart is THE MAN when it comes to Darts.

Had that one time with a customers clutch one of my mechanics put in a truck, the flywheel had some oily coating on it for rust prevention and he didn't degrease it first, he said running it would just burn off but it wouldn't so we pulled it out cleaned it with brake clean and it worked perfect.

Rhinodart .

I have an extra Z bar I got from TTI I think it was for use with headers, it has an extra bend to get the lower arm to clear header collectors better .

The 2 brackets with the ball studs on them , on the car and in the pile of parts look like the correct parts, use the pile of parts spacer.

The bracket on the car appears to have an extra gusset added , the one behind the ballstud , not sure that thick a bracket is going to bend over that short a distance even hammering a very heavy clutch.

Obviously the lower adjusting rods are some Rube Goldberg pieces ...

I posted previously about Z-bars..
I had a similar clutch linkage issue in my 70 RR.
When I had things apart, I talked to our local Mopar guru and he showed me (2) other Z-bars that had the same mounting width but the tab for connecting to the pushbar/fork was located differently on each of the (3).
I had no idea about differences, but using the wrong one caused alot of linkage issues.
The bottom line was to use the Z-bar that caused the push bar to run parallel to the bell housing and push straight back on the fork.
I looked at each Z-bar but didn't find any part #..
I was just fortunate to make contact with our local Mopar guru who knew about about this..

Just my $0.02...

Any 10-1/2” flywheel will work also and Cab, you kept saying GTX (b-body) I’m sure you meant GTS

Rhinodart .

I have an extra Z bar I got from TTI I think it was for use with headers, it has an extra bend to get the lower arm to clear header collectors better .

The 2 brackets with the ball studs on them , on the car and in the pile of parts look like the correct parts, use the pile of parts spacer.

The bracket on the car appears to have an extra gusset added , the one behind the ballstud , not sure that thick a bracket is going to bend over that short a distance even hammering a very heavy clutch.

Obviously the lower adjusting rods are some Rube Goldberg pieces ... [/quote]

Thank you sir.
Is that Z bar for a stock BB dart w/TTI's headers or a BB conversion? Next question, will it clear stock exhaust? I PM'd Rhinodart asking for his input.

Thank you again John as well as all that are commenting

Holy crap! Some people should NOT be allowed to work on big block A-body's! I didn't read the whole thing but was the car complete and running before the clutch change? It is all straight forward with factory parts, which are all known and available except the bell housing that needs to be sourced, which is the 372 bell but also the 370 bell works just missing the hole for the spring which I didn't see in any of your pictures. I would NEVER use a diaphram clutch, no reason for it except less effort, but you can use a hydraulic throwout bearing if you have a weak knee. A mirror finish flywheel? Are they stoned or stupid? And not turning a used flywheel is also insane. I wish I was close by I could then tell why the bellcrank is at an angle, couldn't tell with the pictures. I do have pictures of my factory set-up, but it will take a bit to find them. In the picture of the parts I see a cut-up factory big block A-body bell crank and a small block bell crank. The ball stud bracket is a factory A-body piece also.

Thank you responding, And yes it was
I am thinking the angled Z bar is likely due to the Repro BH mount. But I have not checked the BH numbers yet but will tomorrow

I have found the Z bar from southwest performance, 1 style of BH stud mount also from SW (First pic), and another from Hoffmans winners circle (2nd pic).

I'm thinking the SWP Z bar is likely what is in the car. I likely have 2 different BH brackets but have to confirm. They both have weldments But I'm not sure if they are on both sides. The one in the car does. Why things are cockeyed I don't know and won't until I start taking things apart. I do wish the stock Z bar wasn't butchered and the stock BH bracket was in the pile but BUBBA must've needed them for his race car. 🔥🔥
My main concern is the Z bar arm length from the center of the tube to the center of the pin on the upper arms. If any one has that measurement I could use it to verify the repro z bar is correct or rework the stock on that is missing it's upper one. The rest I believe I can work around.
Thanks to all and I Will keep reporting,
Again any input is welcome

Your correct on the car being a real GTS, not a GT like I was told it was when I took it in trade back in the early 1990s. It had a GT decal on the trunk panel and 1967 Dart GT door panel with the original GTS inside door emblem removed and missing when I got that car
I learned later that Dodge did offer the 383 in the 1967 and 1968 Drat GT but not in the 1969 Dart GT Only Swingers and GTS got the 383 motors in 1969

talking as a machinist, the guy that did that flywheel finish should do the same finish to his brake rotors and drums, then he wouldn't be around to do stupid work like that again..........

Well a kwi update, it does have the correct 372 bellhousing. once apart there were some faint machining marks on the flywheel but only in a few areas where the disc contacted. There were some on the outside area but not what i would consider very coarse
very irregular pattern of hot spots in the center of the PP if one looks closely its as though there was a thin area in the middle with two hotter spots and what appears to be lining transfer fading away. A corresponding pattern appears more visible on the flywheel side of the disc? Also found contact marks on the inside of the diaphragm fingers from the spring retainers. So more tomorrow but I'm thinking contamination?

Have you checked flatness across PP & the disc?

The 383 was only offered in the Dart GTS all three years, NEVER in a GT or any other Dart model...

Looks like it was ground properly to me. I.m telling you the PP is junk!

you can tell by the perpendicular curved marks left by the grinding cup from the machine.

Ive pulled them with thousands of iles and not look that bad.The flywheel looks like its not flat.That or someone dosent know how to drive stick.We had a few at the shop that didnt know how to drive stick.One had less than 500 miles and was towed back.When we pulled it apart the clutch was like starands and fried..As for the PP not beong good I doubt 2 were bad.If the flywheel isnt flat the Pp wont bite flat

Not yet, It was getting late and I was beat. In looking at the 2nd PP and 4th pic (flywheel side of disc) one can see the same circular ring (pattern) in the middle of both. It's there on the FW as well but not as prominent.
The pattern being more visible in the PP and FW side of the disc makes me suspect one of them wasn't flat.
The ring is also visible on the flywheel but one has to really look closely for it to show.

I have to now establish why the z bar is not straight and level which I suspect may be the Bell housing pivot mount. Will likely have to wait until the trans is back in for that adventure. Wish I had a stock pivot mount to compare it to as well as a stock z bar.
thanks to all again and any input is appreciated.

Jack engine up to stock height then fix Z bar, whole lot easier without that trans in the way.

I certainly wished I had thought of taking some measurements before pulling the trans
I have a new pivot mount coming from Brewer's. I'll compare it to what's in there now and go from there. Might slip just the BH, trans back and crossmember back in to do so

It looks dry in there, at least best I can tell. But it sure sounds like how a contaminated disc behaves. Anything coming from above, like from the oil sender area?

Maybe somebody could give you dimensions from a correct z bar and weld up something from the pile?

Nothing wrong with a diaphragm clutch, other than installer error and lack of driving skill. I won’t use anything but a diaphragm and centerforce has always worked well for me. You checked off the big no no, the over center spring. So it had that in there for both clutches. Plus a linkage mess, plus the slick flywheel, plus we don’t know how any of those involved broke it in. I think at this point I’d solve the linkage issues and go with all new parts and do as much break in as you can yourself. With the spring out of the dash it should end this ordeal.

If FW isn't flat, could be saved with a very light machine over, save some $$.
PP could probably be reused, unless very contaminated.
Easy for some to say "buy all new"
Z-bar alignment isn't that "super" critical, as it will shift as rubber mounts "settle" from new.
Doubt it has any effect on clutch chatter.
But will with pedal operation: i.e. smoothness etc.
But still nice to know you are using the correct one.
Best to you.

.........please show the DIAL INDICATOR readings for the alignment of the bell house to crank center-line and squareness to the crank/b-h centerline......

This is a fundamental [basic] check that is required and nothing can be resolved without this check and correction.

Crank needs the roller pilot bearing!

Wrong type of clutch, bad choice in disk material.
Is that a crack in the flywheel?
Is the flywheel thin from too much machining?

Something is just plain wonky here. I don't have the experience with a lot of clutches like some members have but I've never see a pressure plate like that. The thin ring that appears to be overheated to the point of bluing the PP would really concern me as that appears to be the only significant contact area.

There are only a few things that cause chattering. Grease or oil on the flywheel, pressure plate, or disc. Or the friction material of the disc. Street type disc's don't usually chatter. More toward a race type disc does tend to chatter a bit. If the flywheel was not resurfaced or not resurfaced properly, it should not chatter, but the clutch will slip.

I believe it was for a stock using their headers , I grabbed it to gain some extra clearance with my 2.5 mandrel bent headpipes and for potentially putting headers in when the stock appearing bug stopped biting me . Haven't finished it yet .

I wouldn't use a roller pilot bearing , the input shaft was not hardened originally for a roller bearing .

What bad happens with a roller pilot? I never had trouble and beat on my car as much or more than the next guy.

I would think it's going to wear a groove in the shaft over time. Some people say we don't drive the cars enough to worry about it but I'm not one of them.

YMMV

Responding to all,
Dry as a bone inside the BH and the car hasn't even left a drop of anything on the floor. Even the inside of the inspection cover was dry.
I don't think the linkage being out of whack caused the issue BUT -------
The flywheel and disc appear to be flat in checking them with a Starrett straight edge and light behind. If anything the PP appears to be a bit concave across it's surface. There are also marks on the inside of the diaphragm fingers where it hit the retainers for the clutch springs. This I assume was from over adjusting the clutch at some point. (See pic below) It was still grabbing 2-3" off the floor when it came in and i will guess had at least an inch of preload on it.
The pattern on the PP is strange in that it appears to have been grabbing in the center and more so in two areas ~ 150 degrees apart. The same "ring" is evident on both sides of the disc but more so on the Flywheel side
The only thing I can conclude at this point is either the disc or PP was out of whack, or there was some kind of contamination involved. Maybe Bubba had a greasy lunch
I have ordered a NEW CF clutch assembly and flywheel as well as linkage parts from Brewer's. not sure or anything other than the Pattern to me indicates there was more contact in the "RING" on the PP and I am tempted to suspect that as the cause DUNNO. I may run the pictures by a tech at CF and see what his thoughts are. I will keep posting updates.
thanks a bunch for all the help/ suggestions

1, Get a new pressure plate, clean it very well with blue shop towels and brake clean and do not touch it on the friction side afterwards, even normal skin oil is bad.
2. Get the flywheel re-ground by a different shop, they used too fine of a stone, that is not an 80 or 90 grit finish and it has weird patterns off to the right like someone hit it with a cookie disc or something. Also clean it with blue shop towels and brake clean and do not touch it afterwards.
3. get a new friction disc and do not touch it
4, make sure there is no excessive grease on the input shaft or throwout bearing (or anything in there for that matter as even a little tiny bit on the friction surface can cause issues)

Do not let it get any greasy hand prints on any of the friction surfaces of the disc, pressure plate or flywheel!

Doing all that will cure any issue inside the bellhousing.

Do the clutch disc springs show any contact to match the pattern on the PP fingers?

Those marks look like the clutch is being depressed to far ???

The diaphragm fingers aren't that strong and will keep going once the clutch is released ... think speed shifting when going down the track, you are slamming the clutch pedal as fast as possible...

That is why you set plate departure and not freeplay as the FSM suggests. THough in this case the OP's freeplay is good.

All good points but I’ll add, do not grease the pilot busing, it’s silicon-bronze it lubricates itself and will not cut grooves like the roller bearing will.

Replies to all:
Hotrod Dave: Don't know if you read the entire post but the car has been through two shops and two New clutches with ONE resurface that I am aware of. keep in mind the car is 55 years old so who knows how many over the years. It is getting all NEW components from Centerforce including the flywheel

6pak: No, but the metal tabs that retain the springs do
John RR: The fingers were definitely hitting the spring retainers on the PP side of the disc. The car when it came in, had 1/2" + of preload on the fingers with the clutch fully engaged (pedal released) I strongly suspect they likely adjusted the linkage (too long) trying to alleviate the chattering during their troubleshooting process, And that is likely where the marks came from. (BUBBA says OOOPS 😲🤫, that's a bit too much, git me another beer and back that off of a bit) 🙄
Sniper Initially the departure was somewhere beyond .125". Could've likely driven a greyhound bus through the clearance ( OK joking a bit).
Cudaman I use a high temp brake grease from bendix that does not melt nor contaminate friction material. I have a 12 oz tub of it that was given to me by a couple of reps from bendix quite a few years ago. The product has been discontinued (upgraded?). They at the time specifically mentioned pilot bushings as another application for the product. Having turned some pilot bushings in a lathe older ones seem to produce a noticeable amount of oil while newer ones produce much less. Same cutter, RPM, depth of cut etc. So, not knowing if it's a better lubricant, cost cutting or overseas MFG. I use a light coat inside the bushing and a very light film on the input shaft. haven't had an issue yet
Will keep all posted,
thanks

Seriously ungood, probably most of the issue there. That's allowing the pedal/linkage/throwout bearing to over travel, which is why the fingers are hitting.

I would also balance the new flywheel to the new pressure plate.

100% agree. Just sent several pic's to a tech at CF, his thoughts are this pressure plate was hosed from the get go or became so after install. he said in his opinion and experience two of the 3 lifting arms were not lifting or sitting down at the same as the third which correlates to the hot spots on the PP.
Parts just arrived so off to work I go May not know much until the linkage parts arrive from Brewer's which likely won't be until next week.
Will keep all updated

Be weary of some bushing which aren't oil impregnated. I've seen them being sold at some shows.

With our current supply chains executive money grubbing, cost cutting, and overseas suppliers trying to out bid each other it is hard to know who to trust anymore when it comes to quality. Quality sources/brands are not what they used to be. Even Napa has buckled in to selling 💩. So one does have to be very selective when choosing parts.

Before removing the flywheel, I'd like to check the runout of the face. Indicator base on the block, needle on the face.

That dark spot looks about 180 from where the grinding marks are visible. Like the flywheel wobbles.

Be a good idea to check that on the new flywheel too. Who knows if the crank flange is bent. Unlikely but not impossible.

Bellhousing concentricty is important too.

There may be multiple little things adding up.

A kwik update:
1. The crank flange had a high spot ring around the outside preventing the FW from sitting flat on the entire flange surface. Wasn'nt really noticeable until one looked at flange pattern the back of the FW. Rust or something similar (orange & black spotting) was evident on the flange. A kwik pass with a flat aluminum block confirmed the presence of the ring.
2. The pilot bushing was not installed straight as the upper lip was proturding
3. The Z bar mount is definitely tweaked
4. new flywheel mounted showed 0 variation to the block measured across the face
5. Bellhousing run out checked at .022"
Waiting for offset dowels to get the bellhousing in spec

glad to see everything is getting back to normal.
did you check runout on the old flywheel ? if you did, i missed it.
who knows "how many fingers has been in that pie" in over 50+ years ?

No I did not, When I saw the PP I figured anything beyond wass just burning time. I already have too much in it as it is

Hopefully the RobbMc dowels and directly from Him , Summit sells the lakewood branded RobbMc type now and they are almost 150 a pair vs. 39 a pair ...

well having too much to do, plus a little more, keeps one out of the bars and away from chasing wild women.

Never been one for bars, my mother taught me it was god place to find trouble whether you wanted it or not This was further impressed upon my young mind when a good friends neighbor had an altercation with an individual at a small strip mall bar on a Saturday early afternoon in a nice part of Santa Clara, Ca about 1973-4. The disagreement was settled out back with the other person leaving afterwards. 2 or 3 hours later when the neighbor walked out the front door he was blasted twice with a 12ga.

Wild women? known a few, kind of like bars IMO, nothing but trouble LOL No use for them either

I certainly wish i had know about those before pulling the trigger on the summit / lakewood ones Oh well next time
Didn't get much accomplished today other removing the dowels. The welding a bolt trick worked really well especially with the motor still in the car. So thanks for the suggestion Still learning at 69 YO
Attaching a few pic's of the back of the crank and FW where one can see it was only seating on the outer edge along with non shouldered bolts

Nothing like multiple issues contributing to one big problem. Back in the 80's, I had a 360 crank worked on by Hank The Crank. One of the operations done by them was to true up the rear flange.

I was thinking maybe a bent crank

I thought everyone that's a longtime member knew about them , the good thing I guess is it's on the customers dime. I have all 3 available offsets in my stash , would have really hurt at the summit price ...

The first time I bought them all they were only 28 a set ...

RobbMC dowels

I have his site bookmarked now. And I agree, the Lakewood prices are flat thievery IMO

Summit branded offset dowels are even less than RobbMc

https://www.summitracing.com/search/part-type/bellhousing-dowel-pins?N=dowel-pin-diameter-in%3A0-500-in

https://www.summitracing.com/search/part-type/bellhousing-dowel-pins?

the only drawback with those dowel pins, they are .500, while the mopar pins are .495-.496.
that extra .004 in diameter will prove to be fun installing them, then the bellhousing or transmission case holes may need enlarging by a few thousandths so the pins fit there.

Just an FYI Sniper, please feel free to correct me if I am wrong
the summit pins are oversized at .500 which work well in a ford but Mopar's use a .496 diameter pin. If one does get them in you're not going to turn them. Additionally, the same is true for the bell housing side/holes as I found out yesterday
So to use the "Other guys" pins one will have to polish them down with some aggressive paper (80 grit) and a lathe, drill press or such. DO REMEBER you have to do BOTH ends of the Dowel. If not when installing the bellhousing it may push the offset side of the dowel partially into the block causing it to seize as I found out yesterday, My D/A fault for not thinking this through again. Fortunately this only happened on 1 of the 2 pins and it was the lower more accessible one.
After seizing, it broke one allen driver bit while trying to rock it back and forth. OK get another. The sides of the allen socket on the dowel then split/ fractured. THANK GOD FOR CARBIBDE BITS 🙏
So what should have been a 2-3 hour job at most turned into about 8-9.

The RobMc pins are a two piece design in which the dowel in the block is separate from the bellhousing dowel. Once installed you rotate the bellhousing half of the pin to where you want it and the lock it down with the internal screw. Last night I would have paid 300.00 for a pair of those pins. ROBMC PIN LINKY
I tried ordering them yesterday but no one answered
From my limited searching he and Brewers appear to be the only offering the correct size pins. It was too late for Brewers.
And I alos thought about John RR as he said he had them but again to late to get them o/nited
So Today I will give the summit ones another shot with both ends turned down to the .496 diameter. Wish me luck

OK You Treed me are we even now ? 😂😂

Well, the Mopar pins are at .500" too so your screwed which ever way you go.

Correct except for Robb Robb mc, LINKY and Brewers pins which are sized correctly.

My error was twofold,
1. I did not think about the BH side of the dowel which also has to be reduced. That error pushed the offset portion into the block enough to seize it. but fortunately only on the lower accessible pin. The never seize may have helped
2. Again not thinking things through I installed the pins with the offset 180 degrees out of where they should have been. again.

I am happy to say the new pins are in and the BH is +/- .0035 which is within spec. Amazing how easy things can be when you think things through
Will try for the clutch etc tomorrow

I'm confused. +/- .0035". Is that 0.0035" TIR or 0.007" TIR?

.007 TIR. previously at .022 TIR

i'm waiting for the next race !

As soon as this clutch is in I'll let you see my taillights. Might want to put some GPS trackers on your doors 🚀💨🤣🍻

Checked the parallelism of the face of the BH to the FW and found it to be at .011". Manual calls for .008 max. I did note the paint appeared to be applied unevenly and more so at the lower where the high reading was. Wire brushed all the paint off and Golly Gee Gomer, it dropped to .004 .
Clutch and PP in and torqued (PITA with the BH in place) so trans tomorrow and hopefully figure out the Z bar alignment. the BH bracket from brewers is different (alignment wise) than the one that was in the car so I'm 🤞🤞 and🙏 as I'm getting tired of BUBBA at this point

Sucks, but I really think all the new stuff was only way to get to a resolution here.

Thanks for the clarification.

glad it's finally seeing the light at the end of the tunnel.

Hoping it's not an oncoming Santa Fe I won't rest easy until I try the clutch with the motor running 🤞🤞🙏🙏

Thanks to all for their support through this fun adventure. i have one more to look at after this and that will be pretty much it for customer cars. IF that one gets to messy I'm gonna bail on it. at 69 YO, I want to get back to it being a hobby and spend some time with the wife
But then I will have a butt load of tools, parts and inventory to get rid of

I know you love a good fight , even when you are wrong ... the mopar pins are NOT .500 ... the aftermarket has been selling the wrong ones forever .

They are .496"

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mop-1122532


Brand:
Mopar Replacement
Manufacturer's Part Number:
1122532
Part Type:
Bellhousing Dowel Pins
Product Line:
Mopar Replacement Transmission Housing Dowel Pins
Summit Racing Part Number:
MOP-1122532
Dowel Pin Offset (in.):
None
Dowel Pin Length (in.):
0.750 in.
Dowel Pin Diameter (in.):
0.500 in.
Quantity:
Sold individually.

Regardless of what Summit says, it's been documented here in prior threads that .496 is the correct size.

Sniper, Directly from Brewer's site

I think what is being said here is that even the mopar ones are wrong.

still WRONG ....

Ones listed at .500 are just advertising they are incorrect.

Clutch and trans are installed, Z bar still not straight across or level. The motor mount studs on the L and bolt on the R are all the way down on both sides. I have discovered the motor is not sitting level (leaning to the L (drivers side). The mounts and K frame appear correct.
If I raise the L side and level the motor it helps a lot with the Z bar leveling out but I am puzzled as to why it's sitting so low on both sides and how to raise the L side other than shimming it up. Normally one can "rock" the motor to level it on the mounts but in this case they are both at the bottom so the rocking idea's not going to work. Maybe it's a BB dart thing ? has anyone run into this before?
I can
1. Shim the motor till it's level which appears to be the root cause.
2. Move one of the Z bar ball studs, but I really prefer to find a correct the root cause
A couple of pic's of the K frame and Mounts that are in the car. Note the R mount has limited adjustment with one long bolt while the L has a lot with the slotted holes in the k frame that the studs go through
Any suggestions/ comments/ experiences?
Thanks

Just telling you how they are listed, won't be the first time they sold something that didn't fit and I am not going to buy a set to see if the listing is wrong.

Summit is not the only place selling .500 dowels for Mopars, Jegs, Speedway and a bunch of others including Mancini. The picture below might explain why.

After evaluating things a bit further and talking with the owner I am going to relocate the ball stud on the BH bracket unless Someone chimes in with a solution. The owner is running out of $$ and I am already buried in this. Not the solution I would prefer but an easily reversible one at a later time.
I will update once the car is drivable
thanks to all that have contributed

Loosened up the motor mount bracket bolts that attach it to the block, leave them slightly loose.

Raise the engine then tighten the bracket bolts. Leave the motor mount to k frame nuts loose slightly and raise the insulator too. This may get you what you need.

Thanks , I am aware of how they are listed and found out the hard way in 2005 that they are not right when I was helping a friend use a set of the Lakewoods to dial in an Ultrabell on his Challenger dragcar ... what a nightmare

What rubber engine mount is he using on the driver side ? I went thru this with my dart , the replacement mount I got , think it was schumacher , is thinner than the factory mount , I replaced my worn oil soaked original mount that was crushed and sagging badly , I bought the shims that Schumacher sells to level what I have . I think what they were selling was a mount that was not the actual for the application , also their poly ... if I remember right ... is also thinner than stock which is why they have the shims . I scored an NOS original mount that i haven't dared to use as of yet , shimmed the left replacement to get the engine level.

To me, the engine & trans have to be level side/side.
I'd be loosening the mounts & brackets, and with a carb plate or whatever, correct that.
Could be an incorrect mount, damage, or sloppy fitment.
Mission creep can suck, but better to have it right than not.
Might have to watch header fit, and hopefully more things weren't "rigged" to accommodate the leaning.

I made the D/A mistake of doing the Block side of the dowel but not the BH side. When I installed the BH it was snug but not overly so.
When I figured out I had put the fricken pins in 180 out the R pin had been pushed into the block and seized. NIGHTMARE is an UNDERSTATEMENT