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Re: New clutch, SEVERE Chatter from a stop [Re: CKessel] #3167782
08/14/23 09:41 AM
08/14/23 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by CKessel
Some other things to check that come to mind. Is the car using all of the components, other than clutch assy, that it came with from Ma Mopar? Or is it a mix and match? Did someone swap in an a-body A engine trans in and not know that the B engine trans use the larger from bearing retainer which is bb/hemi only? Giving you hotdog in the hallway since the A trans uses the smaller retainer therefore trans to bell housing alignment is not happening.


confused

I have a 69 383 GTS factory 4 speed car, Mopar used the only A body trans that was available behind the 383, small bearing retainer which was bolted to the 67 down small bearing retainer bellhousing used behind all big blocks of the time ... even the early Hemi trans had the small retainer and 307 bearings .... There was no B engine specific transmission for the A body .


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Re: New clutch, SEVERE Chatter from a stop NOW WITH PIC's [Re: fourgearsavoy] #3167786
08/14/23 09:55 AM
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Looking at the pictures of the linkage parts pile I see the original spacer that goes under the Z bracket attached to the bellhousing , it's got the turquoise paint on it. You should check the thickness of the replacement one that is on the car vs the stock one.

My car is a little buried at the moment , I'll see if I can get under the hood to get a look at how the Z bar is , but the angle there look a little extreme to me, though it's got a ball on both ends some some misalignment shouldn't be too critical ???


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Re: New clutch, SEVERE Chatter from a stop NOW WITH PIC's [Re: TJP] #3167817
08/14/23 12:00 PM
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I bought a H code 1969 GTS in the early 1990s minus the original motor, tranny and shifter, console, and tach and exhausts system, I didn't know at that time it was GTS due to the car having all the GTS emblems and decals remove long before I bought it the first time. I ended up putting a late 383 4 speed motor and A body 4 speed in the car with a bunch of mismatched clutch linkage parts and a scatter shield with a 11.0 inch racing type clutch and pressure plate I had at that time, needless to say it didn't work well and was hard to shift smoothly down whiney I found out it was a GTS, not a GT shock, on the day the new owner picked the car up by decoding the original fender tag work
I ended up buying it back later and started trying to put it back to like it was built, the other owner had replaced the old misfitting mechanical clutch linkage with a hydraulic clutch kit which I didn't like. I bought new OEM clutch linkage parts from Brewers, I think, and replace the scatter shield and 11.0 inch clutch with a 1965 B body 10.5 inch clutch bellhousing and a Center Force diaphragm type street clutch and pressure plate. That helped a bunch on the shifting cleanly.
My message is it looks like to me that you have a bunch of mismatch parts that aren't working well together, I took one picture of my car the way it is now, not perfect with all the OEM parts but is has everything except the original 383 bell housing which does affect the original type Z bar alignment, see the attach picture. scope
I wish I could take a picture of the Z bar and clutch rod, but I can't right now, sorry blush
The clutch rod alignment is critical, it needs to be straight and level to work properly, my Z bar is misaligned a little bit probably due to the wrong year bell housing realcrazy shruggy, it should be straight across from the ball on the bell housing, not a little bit misaligned like it is now down whiney
IHTHs luck
There is one thing you should check closely on the clutch disc to flywheel clearance, it should have at least .030 or more clearance between the flywheel and clutch disc with the clutch pedal depress all the way to the floor. scope wrench up
Please let us know what you find and due to fix it luck

SANY0018.JPG
Last edited by Cab_Burge; 08/15/23 02:25 AM.

Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: New clutch, SEVERE Chatter from a stop NOW WITH PIC's [Re: Cab_Burge] #3167844
08/14/23 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Cab_Burge
I bought a H code 1969 GTS in the early 1990s minus the original motor, tranny and shifter, console, and tach and exhausts system, I didn't know at that time it was GTX due to the car having all the GTS emblems and decals remove long before I bought it the first time. I ended up putting a late 383 4 speed motor and A body 4 speed in the car with a bunch of mismatched clutch linkage parts and a scatter shield with a 11.0 inch racing type clutch and pressure plate I had at that time, needless to say it didn't work well and was hard to shift smoothly down whiney I found out it was a GTX, not a GT shock, on the day the new owner picked the car up by decoding the original fender tag work
I ended up buying it back later and started trying to put it back to like it was built, the other owner had replaced the old misfitting mechanical clutch linkage with a hydraulic clutch kit which I didn't like. I bought new OEM clutch linkage parts from Brewers, I think, and replace the scatter shield and 11.0 inch clutch with a 1965 B body 10.5 inch clutch bellhousing and a Center Force diaphragm type street clutch and pressure plate. That helped a bunch on the shifting cleanly.
My message is it looks like to me that you have a bunch of mismatch parts that aren't working well together, I took one picture of my car the way it is now, not perfect with all the OEM parts but is has everything except the original 383 bell housing which does affect the original type Z bar alignment, see the attach picture. scope
I wish I could take a picture of the Z bar and clutch rod, but I can't right now, sorry blush
The clutch rod alignment is critical, it needs to be straight and level to work properly, my Z bar is misaligned a little bit probably due to the wrong year bell housing realcrazy shruggy, it should be straight across from the ball on the bell housing, not a little bit misaligned like it is now down whiney
IHTHs luck
There is one thing you should check closely on the clutch disc to flywheel clearance, it should have at least .030 or more clearance between the flywheel and clutch disc with the clutch pedal depress all the way to the floor. scope wrench up
Please let us know what you find and due to fix it luck


Cab , the BB A body used the same bellhousing as the 65 B body , 2468372 casting number


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Re: New clutch, SEVERE Chatter from a stop NOW WITH PIC's [Re: Cab_Burge] #3167863
08/14/23 02:22 PM
08/14/23 02:22 PM
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Once again, a big thanks to all.

Cab, The clearance has been measured in several places between the PP with the disc on one position and again with the PP stationary and rotating the disc. all measurements were even at ~ .057"
John, I know the linkage is Bubbafied and plan on straightening that out and getting back to factory if I can find or make the parts. I can't be sure but do not think the linkage is causing the issue. it's hosed up but does appear to be functioning. Locating a correct Z bar is likely going to be the biggest problem. frown


I don't know what what or why they had to butcher up the original Z bar. But that part currently does not appear to be available so far. frown I need to do a deeper search but so far no luck everywhere I've looked and brewer's is out of stock. Any suggestions are welcome wink

my next choices are:
1. Find a correct used one which I'm not sure how one identifies what is correct shruggy
2. Possibly find someone that has one out of the car that can take measurements of the Arms from the center of the tube to the center of the pin. I can then see what is in the assortment of parts as well as the one in the car. With the measurements I can likely make one of the three work.

Unfortunately what appears to be the original has had one of the two arms whacked off. THANKS BUBBA spank

I would obviously trust one from Brewers but not sure who else one could trust from a repro standpoint. Which member was the Dart specialist parts guy? DBartman or Rhinodart?
Thanks again beer

Re: New clutch, SEVERE Chatter from a stop NOW WITH PIC's [Re: TJP] #3167873
08/14/23 03:01 PM
08/14/23 03:01 PM
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Re: New clutch, SEVERE Chatter from a stop [Re: TJP] #3167878
08/14/23 03:22 PM
08/14/23 03:22 PM
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Had that one time with a customers clutch one of my mechanics put in a truck, the flywheel had some oily coating on it for rust prevention and he didn't degrease it first, he said running it would just burn off but it wouldn't so we pulled it out cleaned it with brake clean and it worked perfect.


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Re: New clutch, SEVERE Chatter from a stop NOW WITH PIC's [Re: TJP] #3167892
08/14/23 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by TJP
Once again, a big thanks to all.

Cab, The clearance has been measured in several places between the PP with the disc on one position and again with the PP stationary and rotating the disc. all measurements were even at ~ .057"
John, I know the linkage is Bubbafied and plan on straightening that out and getting back to factory if I can find or make the parts. I can't be sure but do not think the linkage is causing the issue. it's hosed up but does appear to be functioning. Locating a correct Z bar is likely going to be the biggest problem. frown


I don't know what what or why they had to butcher up the original Z bar. But that part currently does not appear to be available so far. frown I need to do a deeper search but so far no luck everywhere I've looked and brewer's is out of stock. Any suggestions are welcome wink

my next choices are:
1. Find a correct used one which I'm not sure how one identifies what is correct shruggy
2. Possibly find someone that has one out of the car that can take measurements of the Arms from the center of the tube to the center of the pin. I can then see what is in the assortment of parts as well as the one in the car. With the measurements I can likely make one of the three work.

Unfortunately what appears to be the original has had one of the two arms whacked off. THANKS BUBBA spank

I would obviously trust one from Brewers but not sure who else one could trust from a repro standpoint. Which member was the Dart specialist parts guy? DBartman or Rhinodart?
Thanks again beer


Rhinodart .

I have an extra Z bar I got from TTI I think it was for use with headers, it has an extra bend to get the lower arm to clear header collectors better .

The 2 brackets with the ball studs on them , on the car and in the pile of parts look like the correct parts, use the pile of parts spacer.

The bracket on the car appears to have an extra gusset added , the one behind the ballstud , not sure that thick a bracket is going to bend over that short a distance even hammering a very heavy clutch.

Obviously the lower adjusting rods are some Rube Goldberg pieces ...


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Re: New clutch, SEVERE Chatter from a stop NOW WITH PIC's [Re: JohnRR] #3167915
08/14/23 06:16 PM
08/14/23 06:16 PM
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I posted previously about Z-bars..
I had a similar clutch linkage issue in my 70 RR.
When I had things apart, I talked to our local Mopar guru and he showed me (2) other Z-bars that had the same mounting width but the tab for connecting to the pushbar/fork was located differently on each of the (3).
I had no idea about differences, but using the wrong one caused alot of linkage issues.
The bottom line was to use the Z-bar that caused the push bar to run parallel to the bell housing and push straight back on the fork.
I looked at each Z-bar but didn't find any part #..
I was just fortunate to make contact with our local Mopar guru who knew about about this..

Just my $0.02... wink

Re: New clutch, SEVERE Chatter from a stop NOW WITH PIC's [Re: Sinitro] #3167921
08/14/23 06:37 PM
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Any 10-1/2ā€ flywheel will work also and Cab, you kept saying GTX (b-body) Iā€™m sure you meant GTS

Last edited by cudaman1969; 08/14/23 06:38 PM.
Re: New clutch, SEVERE Chatter from a stop NOW WITH PIC's [Re: JohnRR] #3167929
08/14/23 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnRR


Rhinodart .

I have an extra Z bar I got from TTI I think it was for use with headers, it has an extra bend to get the lower arm to clear header collectors better .

The 2 brackets with the ball studs on them , on the car and in the pile of parts look like the correct parts, use the pile of parts spacer.

The bracket on the car appears to have an extra gusset added , the one behind the ballstud , not sure that thick a bracket is going to bend over that short a distance even hammering a very heavy clutch.

Obviously the lower adjusting rods are some Rube Goldberg pieces ... [/quote]

Thank you sir.
Is that Z bar for a stock BB dart w/TTI's headers or a BB conversion? Next question, will it clear stock exhaust? I PM'd Rhinodart asking for his input.

Thank you again John as well as all that are commenting beer

Re: New clutch, SEVERE Chatter from a stop NOW WITH PIC's [Re: TJP] #3167959
08/14/23 08:48 PM
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Holy crap! Some people should NOT be allowed to work on big block A-body's! I didn't read the whole thing but was the car complete and running before the clutch change? It is all straight forward with factory parts, which are all known and available except the bell housing that needs to be sourced, which is the 372 bell but also the 370 bell works just missing the hole for the spring which I didn't see in any of your pictures. I would NEVER use a diaphram clutch, no reason for it except less effort, but you can use a hydraulic throwout bearing if you have a weak knee. A mirror finish flywheel? Are they stoned or stupid? And not turning a used flywheel is also insane. I wish I was close by I could then tell why the bellcrank is at an angle, couldn't tell with the pictures. I do have pictures of my factory set-up, but it will take a bit to find them. In the picture of the parts I see a cut-up factory big block A-body bell crank and a small block bell crank. The ball stud bracket is a factory A-body piece also.

101_1411.JPG
Last edited by Rhinodart; 08/14/23 09:04 PM.

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Re: New clutch, SEVERE Chatter from a stop NOW WITH PIC's [Re: Rhinodart] #3167972
08/14/23 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Rhinodart
Holy crap! Some people should NOT be allowed to work on big block A-body's! I didn't read the whole thing but was the car complete and running before the clutch change? It is all straight forward with factory parts, which are all known and available except the bell housing that needs to be sourced, which is the 372 bell but also the 370 bell works just missing the hole for the spring which I didn't see in any of your pictures. I would NEVER use a diaphram clutch, no reason for it except less effort, but you can use a hydraulic throwout bearing if you have a weak knee. A mirror finish flywheel? Are they stoned or stupid? And not turning a used flywheel is also insane. I wish I was close by I could then tell why the bellcrank is at an angle, couldn't tell with the pictures. I do have pictures of my factory set-up, but it will take a bit to find them. In the picture of the parts I see a cut-up factory big block A-body bell crank and a small block bell crank. The ball stud bracket is a factory A-body piece also.


Thank you responding, And yes it was frown
I am thinking the angled Z bar is likely due to the Repro BH mount. But I have not checked the BH numbers yet but will tomorrow wink

I have found the Z bar from southwest performance, 1 style of BH stud mount also from SW (First pic), and another from Hoffmans winners circle (2nd pic).

I'm thinking the SWP Z bar is likely what is in the car. I likely have 2 different BH brackets but have to confirm. They both have weldments But I'm not sure if they are on both sides. The one in the car does. Why things are cockeyed I don't know and won't until I start taking things apart. I do wish the stock Z bar wasn't butchered and the stock BH bracket was in the pile but BUBBA must've needed them for his race car. šŸ”„šŸ”„
My main concern is the Z bar arm length from the center of the tube to the center of the pin on the upper arms. If any one has that measurement I could use it to verify the repro z bar is correct or rework the stock on that is missing it's upper one. The rest I believe I can work around.
Thanks to all and I Will keep reporting,
Again any input is welcome beer

Old vers.pngCapture  New.JPG
Last edited by TJP; 08/14/23 10:14 PM.
Re: New clutch, SEVERE Chatter from a stop NOW WITH PIC's [Re: cudaman1969] #3168009
08/15/23 02:30 AM
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Originally Posted by cudaman1969
Any 10-1/2ā€ flywheel will work also and Cab, you kept saying GTX (b-body) Iā€™m sure you meant GTS
Your correct on the car being a real GTS, not a GT like I was told it was when I took it in trade back in the early 1990s. It had a GT decal on the trunk panel and 1967 Dart GT door panel with the original GTS inside door emblem removed and missing when I got that car shruggy
I learned later that Dodge did offer the 383 in the 1967 and 1968 Drat GT but not in the 1969 Dart GT confused Only Swingers and GTS got the 383 motors in 1969 shruggy


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Re: New clutch, SEVERE Chatter from a stop NOW WITH PIC's [Re: Cab_Burge] #3168074
08/15/23 01:01 PM
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talking as a machinist, the guy that did that flywheel finish should do the same finish to his brake rotors and drums, then he wouldn't be around to do stupid work like that again.......... whistling work fan devil
beer

Re: New clutch, SEVERE Chatter from a stop NOW WITH PIC's [Re: moparx] #3168206
08/15/23 11:38 PM
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Well a kwi update, it does have the correct 372 bellhousing. once apart there were some faint machining marks on the flywheel but only in a few areas where the disc contacted. There were some on the outside area but not what i would consider very coarse
very irregular pattern of hot spots in the center of the PP if one looks closely its as though there was a thin area in the middle with two hotter spots and what appears to be lining transfer fading away. A corresponding pattern appears more visible on the flywheel side of the disc? Also found contact marks on the inside of the diaphragm fingers from the spring retainers. So more tomorrow but I'm thinking contamination?

DSC04256.JPGDSC04258.JPGDSC04259.JPGDSC04266.JPG
Re: New clutch, SEVERE Chatter from a stop NOW WITH PIC's [Re: TJP] #3168211
08/16/23 12:47 AM
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Have you checked flatness across PP & the disc?

Re: New clutch, SEVERE Chatter from a stop NOW WITH PIC's [Re: Cab_Burge] #3168212
08/16/23 01:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Cab_Burge
Originally Posted by cudaman1969
Any 10-1/2ā€ flywheel will work also and Cab, you kept saying GTX (b-body) Iā€™m sure you meant GTS
Your correct on the car being a real GTS, not a GT like I was told it was when I took it in trade back in the early 1990s. It had a GT decal on the trunk panel and 1967 Dart GT door panel with the original GTS inside door emblem removed and missing when I got that car shruggy
I learned later that Dodge did offer the 383 in the 1967 and 1968 Drat GT but not in the 1969 Dart GT confused Only Swingers and GTS got the 383 motors in 1969 shruggy


The 383 was only offered in the Dart GTS all three years, NEVER in a GT or any other Dart model... wave


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Re: New clutch, SEVERE Chatter from a stop NOW WITH PIC's [Re: Rhinodart] #3168222
08/16/23 07:17 AM
08/16/23 07:17 AM
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Looks like it was ground properly to me. I.m telling you the PP is junk!

you can tell by the perpendicular curved marks left by the grinding cup from the machine.

Last edited by B1MAXX; 08/16/23 07:24 AM.
Re: New clutch, SEVERE Chatter from a stop NOW WITH PIC's [Re: B1MAXX] #3168229
08/16/23 08:33 AM
08/16/23 08:33 AM
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Ive pulled them with thousands of iles and not look that bad.The flywheel looks like its not flat.That or someone dosent know how to drive stick.We had a few at the shop that didnt know how to drive stick.One had less than 500 miles and was towed back.When we pulled it apart the clutch was like starands and fried..As for the PP not beong good I doubt 2 were bad.If the flywheel isnt flat the Pp wont bite flat


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