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Re: Switch to synthetic oil [Re: Tig] #3155870
07/01/23 10:59 AM
07/01/23 10:59 AM
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Falcon, CO
Mad-Max Offline
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Dino or synthetic will both 'work' fine, and you're unlikely to notice any difference by switching to synthetic. It costs more, and you'll not likely to reap the benefits of longer change intervals because I wouldn't let the engine go longer than 3-5k miles anyway (I change my flat-tappet engines every 3k), which is why I haven't switched to synthetic in any of my older engines and for sure not in my 5.9 Cummins. I change the oil long before the advertised change interval, especially diesel because of the soot buildup in the oil, making it dirty. IOW, the synthetic oil may not 'break down' as fast as dino (hence the longer change intervals), but the dirt contamination that happens in diesels occurs much sooner than the interval change of synthetics advertise, requiring a change sooner anyway. So, IMO using synthetic in a diesel is literally a waste of money, and in any other application (other than what an OE recommends - ie. new cars), change intervals aside I haven't seen the advantages add up enough for synthetic to be worth the cost.

But, ZDDP is the kicker - if you've got a flat-tappet cam you for sure need the high-zinc oils as mentioned above, dino or syn. So...if your 340 has a big cam in it with aggressive lobes and you run it like it should be run wink , and if you're planning to change the oil at 3-5k miles anyway, the syn oils IMO are not worth the higher cost.

Last edited by Mad-Max; 07/01/23 11:43 AM.

71 Demon (project): 318, A-833od, 8-3/4, 3.23's
14 Wrangler JKU M-380 "Kilroy" (under construction): Magnum 360, 46rh, Atlas4, D60/14b-5.38s-Grizzlys, 40s
07 Ram 3500 MegaDually 4x4 "Big Mack": 5.9 6BT, G56 'Toy Hauler'
52 Willys M-38 "Poncho"
Re: Switch to synthetic oil [Re: Cab_Burge] #3156622
07/03/23 05:14 PM
07/03/23 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Cab_Burge
Only guys like them could FUBAR a oil viscosity test like they did haha
I learned a long time ago to make sure any new engine being dyno tested on an engine dyno or a chassis dyno are broken in properly to insure the ring seal is completed and the rings are seated properly work up Zero to no more than 10 % leak down done with the motor warm or hot wrenchup
I wonder if they had that block honed with a torque plate and the proper head gasket under it so it would hone properly work shruggy

Those 2? My guess is dingleberry hone on a dirty shop floor with a cordless 18volt drill. Washed up with a pressure washer, dried in sun and blow dried with air.
Assembled with new bearings, rings, and gaskets from a kit in a box from PAW that was sitting around with a half inch of dirt and dust.
Brand new top quaity cam, lifters, roller rockers and custom push rods. We will mention your company name 30 times on TV for free sh!t
Wilson ported intake and high dollar carb. Left over from other test.
Yes it's a crazy guess but close to how they do builds.
Screw the short block, damm the torpedoes, full speed ahead......


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73 Dart Sport 340/ 70 challenger vert. That may still get built, If I live long enough
Re: Switch to synthetic oil [Re: Mad-Max] #3156681
07/03/23 08:31 PM
07/03/23 08:31 PM
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Sniper Offline
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Originally Posted by Mad-Max


But, ZDDP is the kicker - if you've got a flat-tappet cam you for sure need the high-zinc oils


In general, no you don't NEED high zinc oil.

It depends on the application, mostly the cam and valve springs.

Something like my 51 Plymouth's stock flathead does not need it, never did and never will. A stock 318/225 nope.

Something with a high/aggressive lift cam and the appropriate springs, yep.

Re: Switch to synthetic oil [Re: Sniper] #3156770
07/04/23 12:24 AM
07/04/23 12:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Sniper
Originally Posted by Mad-Max


But, ZDDP is the kicker - if you've got a flat-tappet cam you for sure need the high-zinc oils


In general, no you don't NEED high zinc oil.

It depends on the application, mostly the cam and valve springs.

Something like my 51 Plymouth's stock flathead does not need it, never did and never will. A stock 318/225 nope.

Something with a high/aggressive lift cam and the appropriate springs, yep.
The




.
I need zinc

20230210_121945.jpg

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VP of the MPM in New Orleans
73 Dart Sport 340/ 70 challenger vert. That may still get built, If I live long enough
Re: Switch to synthetic oil [Re: Cab_Burge] #3156772
07/04/23 12:52 AM
07/04/23 12:52 AM
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Posts: 707
California
BigDaddy440 Offline
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Originally Posted by Cab_Burge
Synthetic oils shruggy scope will leak out of a engine that has no leaks with petroleum based oils
I wouldn't switch any old muscle car motor to synthetic oils due to the fact they were designed to run on petroleum oils down work twocents


This is what I've understood to be true since synthetics oils came out. Personally I don't run synthetics on any older engine that wasn't designed for them to begin with. If you're looking for peace of mind, just know that the conventional oils we have today are significantly better than yesterday's oils. It's true, most of them have done away with zinc, but you can still find oils with it, or you can add a bottle of zinc additive if you have a flat tappet camshaft.
'


1969 A12 Roadrunner
1970 Plymouth Cuda
1968 Dodge Dart
Re: Switch to synthetic oil [Re: Sniper] #3156800
07/04/23 08:57 AM
07/04/23 08:57 AM
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Hot 340 Offline
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Originally Posted by Sniper
Anyone telling you there would be negative effects, other than on your bank account, is someone to pass by when advice is being handed out.
lol I asked Kip at Cam Motion about synthetics with flat tappet cams. He said even if zinc is sufficient, the synthetics will hamper lifter rotation, (too slippery)therefore NOT recommended

Re: Switch to synthetic oil [Re: Hot 340] #3156852
07/04/23 12:21 PM
07/04/23 12:21 PM
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ohio
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ruderunner Offline
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My experience with changing to synthetic is increased consumption but this might vary by brand.


Over the years I've seen several folks change to "high mileage " synthetic and suddenly start losing lots of oil. No leaks ever found so where's it going? Past the rings and valve guides, then out the tailpipe. The more pure base stock and modern catalytic converters eliminate the traditional blue haze.

The solution is to go back to dead dinosaurs.


Angry white pureblood male
Re: Switch to synthetic oil [Re: ruderunner] #3157087
07/05/23 12:27 AM
07/05/23 12:27 AM
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SomeCarGuy Offline
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If synthetic cleans away deposits you’ll see consumption go up. We had a fleet of diesels do that after we put an additive in our bulk tank. Took a bit of time and then bam it hit and was shocking.

On zinc, Valvoline says you don’t have to worry about it with modern oil because other things in the mix take care of the issue. But they still sell you VR1 if you want and that’s what I use.


I want my fair share
Re: Switch to synthetic oil [Re: SomeCarGuy] #3157110
07/05/23 07:18 AM
07/05/23 07:18 AM
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Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda Offline
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I’ve been running synthetic (Mobil 1) in my flat tappet 440’s for 30 years. I started using Rislone Zinc additive about 20 years ago. No problems.

Re: Switch to synthetic oil [Re: Pacnorthcuda] #3157117
07/05/23 08:43 AM
07/05/23 08:43 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,365
Marion, South Carolina [><]
an8sec70cuda Offline
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Nothing wrong w/ synthetic oil. If it's a flat tappet cam then I'd pour in a bottle of zinc additive. twocents


CHIP
'70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60
'69 road runner, 440-6, 18 spline 4 speed, Dana 60
'71 Demon, 340, low gear 904, 8.75
'73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75
'90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt
'06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
Re: Switch to synthetic oil [Re: limechallenger] #3157130
07/05/23 09:59 AM
07/05/23 09:59 AM
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Posts: 12,084
Benton, IL.
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DaveRS23 Offline
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Originally Posted by limechallenger
I've got a 70 Challenger T/A with a slightly built 340-6 ,I've always used conventional oil,but wondering if a switch to synthetic will have any negative affects? Thought I'd ask before doing it!
Thanks


Just a simple question; you say you have always used conventional oil, so how many oil related issues have you had over the years?

And haven't we have beat on and raced our Mopars for over half a century with lesser quality oils than we have available today with good success?

And here is an interesting point that was brought up in a similar thread on another board; ALL modern oils have a significant amount of synthetic additives (including conventional oils) to make them what they are. How much more synthetic material would you think is necessary?

Today's engines are vastly different in design and tolerances than our old dinosaurs. And demand different oils than our old dinosaurs. Who here is going to put 0-10 in their Mopar? The ultra thin viscosities is one of the main reasons for the proliferation of synthetics for daily drivers.

All oils have an API rating. That is the 'starburst' typically printed on the back of the container. Today's rating is SN. That is a much, much higher rating than our engines have ever had access to which translates to much, much better oil. For comparison, the now obsolete rating at the time most of our engines were built was SD. And it's interesting to note that whether the oil is syn, blend, or conventional, the rating is the same. The only real difference for most (not all) of our older engine applications, is the cost.



IMHO, Valvoline VR-1 is the best oil for most of us who are not racing and for many who are. It is cost effective, readily available, has ample flat tapper additives, and has proven itself in countless engines including mine. I run it in my Hemi and my wedges. Nearly 7,000 RPM, heavy valve springs, flat tappet cams and many street years of street miles with the occasional visit to the track. Absolutely no oil related problems. Ever.

What is there to improve on?


Master, again and still
Re: Switch to synthetic oil [Re: DaveRS23] #3157138
07/05/23 10:28 AM
07/05/23 10:28 AM
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Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda Offline
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Synthetic base stocks are far better than petroleum base stocks. The old 10w-40 problem of sludging engines (due to huge amounts of viscosity improvers) is gone with synthetics. Many of the new ratings are due to mandatory reductions in ZDDP (due to cats and def filters) so a higher rated oil isn’t necessarily “better”.

Re: Switch to synthetic oil [Re: Pacnorthcuda] #3157147
07/05/23 11:05 AM
07/05/23 11:05 AM
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DaveRS23 Offline
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And that is why VR-1 is such a good choice. It has the additional ZDDP that some of our engines require as well as the latest synthetic additives that make today's oils so much better than oils of old.

Again, all modern oils have a significant amount of synthetic additives. They are obviously not straight crude. So, how much addition synthetics is the right amount? 10%? 25%? 50%? 100%?

Is there any real advantage to a syn blend or a full syn over conventional oils that have their own volume of synthetics? And given our decades and decades of success with the old oils, what would that advantage really be?

And I don't know about you, but I haven't experienced 'sludging' much the last few decades. Except maybe the Chrysler 2.7. And I go through a lot of cars and trucks every year.


Master, again and still
Re: Switch to synthetic oil [Re: DaveRS23] #3157181
07/05/23 12:47 PM
07/05/23 12:47 PM
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Posts: 19,406
north of coder
moparx Offline
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i have some pennzoil 60wt racing oil in the cardboard cans.......... biggrin
beer

Re: Switch to synthetic oil [Re: DaveRS23] #3157189
07/05/23 01:11 PM
07/05/23 01:11 PM
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Morrow, OH
markz528 Online content
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Originally Posted by DaveRS23
Originally Posted by limechallenger
I've got a 70 Challenger T/A with a slightly built 340-6 ,I've always used conventional oil,but wondering if a switch to synthetic will have any negative affects? Thought I'd ask before doing it!
Thanks


Just a simple question; you say you have always used conventional oil, so how many oil related issues have you had over the years?

And haven't we have beat on and raced our Mopars for over half a century with lesser quality oils than we have available today with good success?

And here is an interesting point that was brought up in a similar thread on another board; ALL modern oils have a significant amount of synthetic additives (including conventional oils) to make them what they are. How much more synthetic material would you think is necessary?

Today's engines are vastly different in design and tolerances than our old dinosaurs. And demand different oils than our old dinosaurs. Who here is going to put 0-10 in their Mopar? The ultra thin viscosities is one of the main reasons for the proliferation of synthetics for daily drivers.

All oils have an API rating. That is the 'starburst' typically printed on the back of the container. Today's rating is SN. That is a much, much higher rating than our engines have ever had access to which translates to much, much better oil. For comparison, the now obsolete rating at the time most of our engines were built was SD. And it's interesting to note that whether the oil is syn, blend, or conventional, the rating is the same. The only real difference for most (not all) of our older engine applications, is the cost.



IMHO, Valvoline VR-1 is the best oil for most of us who are not racing and for many who are. It is cost effective, readily available, has ample flat tapper additives, and has proven itself in countless engines including mine. I run it in my Hemi and my wedges. Nearly 7,000 RPM, heavy valve springs, flat tappet cams and many street years of street miles with the occasional visit to the track. Absolutely no oil related problems. Ever.

What is there to improve on?



This is a complex and polarizing topic. I personally lost 2 flat tappets using VR-1. One I personally installed and one I inherited with a car I bought. Do I know the root cause? Nope. But it caused me to switch to Driven oil. So far so good for me with Driven oil.

What is the zinc content in VR-1 versus Driven? I looked it up at one time but don’t remember the number.


67 Coronet 500 9.610 @ 139.20 mph
67 Coronet 500 (street car) 14.82 @ 94 mph
69 GTX (clone) - build in progress......
Re: Switch to synthetic oil [Re: markz528] #3157244
07/05/23 02:50 PM
07/05/23 02:50 PM
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DaveRS23 Offline
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The ONLY possible advantages that VR-1 might have over Driven, I already listed; price and availability. But except for that, there would be no reason to switch to VR-1.


Master, again and still
Re: Switch to synthetic oil [Re: moparx] #3157542
07/06/23 02:08 PM
07/06/23 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by moparx
i have some pennzoil 60wt racing oil in the cardboard cans.......... biggrin
beer

I have some Mopar Trans Fuilds and oil in them cans. It must be the right stuff. All kidding a side.
I think the term synthetics is coming from the fact that lots of oil is made from a pure base stock from Natural Gas.


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73 Dart Sport 340/ 70 challenger vert. That may still get built, If I live long enough
Re: Switch to synthetic oil [Re: DaveRS23] #3157549
07/06/23 02:19 PM
07/06/23 02:19 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
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Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda Offline
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Viscosity improvers aren’t lubricants, therefore they reduce the lubricity of the oil. Synthetic base stocks behave much better in terms of viscosity change during temperature ranges. Synthetic is simply more slippery. It’s like most other things in life…..to get the first 90 percent of ‘quality’ is easy, it’s getting the last part that tougher. NASA developed them a long time ago, Mobil brought them to automotive marketplace.

Re: Switch to synthetic oil [Re: limechallenger] #3157575
07/06/23 03:32 PM
07/06/23 03:32 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 305
Mesa, AZ
cagebob1 Offline
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I had a fellow mopar racer tell me that he tried synthetic in his RB race motor and it took out the main bearings. I just said " huh?" and walked away ! twocents

Re: Switch to synthetic oil [Re: cagebob1] #3159087
07/12/23 12:27 PM
07/12/23 12:27 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,374
Houston,Tx.
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Lee446 Offline
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Houston,Tx.
About 20 years ago, I switched over to Mobil 1 10/30 in my street/bracket car. It had a well worn and loose 440 6 pac that only blew a little smoke out the pipes on the big end. It also had enough blow by to lift the dipstick up a tad at the 6k shift point. Long story short, I changed to synthetic before a trip to the track and on the way, I showered down on it and when we got to the track, my buddy who was following behind me had fresh clean oil spots on his hood and windshield, I also had them on my back bumper. The synthetic was so much more slippery that it was getting by the rings, I went back to dino and it went away. I run synthetic in my modern cars and it is great, but if your old engine is well worn it might not be a good choice! Needless to say, I rebuilt that engine the next winter.

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