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Cam for a Stock Bottom 318 #3147431
05/29/23 01:39 PM
05/29/23 01:39 PM
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mshred Offline OP
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This isn't really a race engine, but I trust the experience of those who have made horsepower to help me out with this.

Engine is a 1978 318, completely stock. It will be propelling a cruiser, just a fun street car. Super budget build with all used parts- It will get headers, x pipe exhaust, an intake (weiand action +), carb (edelbrock), stock distributor with msd 6 box (hopefully I can run locked out timing) and a cam just to add some fun for the light to light passes grin. Car has power brakes and a/c, so the cam needs be something that will maintain enough vacuum for those accessories, while also working with stock rockers (valvespring upgrade is fine too if needed, but if it uses stock springs and pushrods even better).

What cam would you recommend? I am personally thinking something with appropriate duration (215-220 at 0.50") for the cubic inches, lift somewhere in the sub .500" range, and LSA as tight as possible to help cylinder pressure. Again, running on a budget, I can always advance a cam to help with the latter if the price is better and the LSA isn't totally ideal, and I am totally fine with solid flat tappets as well as hydraulic.

The rest of the car is currently a peg leg 2.76 rear, but looking to swap in some 3.55's or 3.73's and a 3000 stall converter with a TF3 valve body in the 904.

Re: Cam for a Stock Bottom 318 [Re: mshred] #3147435
05/29/23 02:03 PM
05/29/23 02:03 PM
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Apollo, PA.
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Something in the 200's at .050 would be better. comp used to have a 20-302-8 but can't I find it now. It was 206/212 108

Re: Cam for a Stock Bottom 318 [Re: mshred] #3147436
05/29/23 02:04 PM
05/29/23 02:04 PM
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Oakland, MI
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I 318 obviously doesn't have a ton of torque to start with so you have to error on the small side.

But a 3.73 gear w/3000 stall is going to want a way different cam than a 2.76 w/stock converter.

I think you need to firm up that plan first before you pick the cam.

Re: Cam for a Stock Bottom 318 [Re: dizuster] #3147442
05/29/23 02:38 PM
05/29/23 02:38 PM
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mshred Offline OP
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Originally Posted by dizuster
I 318 obviously doesn't have a ton of torque to start with so you have to error on the small side.

But a 3.73 gear w/3000 stall is going to want a way different cam than a 2.76 w/stock converter.

I think you need to firm up that plan first before you pick the cam.


Its a pretty firm plan, although it may not get that gear and converter right away. However, would a cam suited to that gear and converter kill vacuum before making the change? I will probably try for 3.55s first, just depends if the car stays with an 8-1/4 rear or an 8.8 ford.

Re: Cam for a Stock Bottom 318 [Re: mshred] #3147443
05/29/23 02:45 PM
05/29/23 02:45 PM
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ILLINOIS
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volaredon Offline
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"hopefully I can run locked out timing"
Wrong answer.
That's great for an industrial engine that runs a steady speed any and all times it's running/
Something like a generator or a irrigation pump, etc....
But for a cruiser car that is the last thing you want. Because an engine like that runs a range of rpms and depends on where you are in that range at any given time, the timing you want changes with load and rpm....
I saw Edelbrock carb, not injection in your list. Only other time locked timing works is when it's controlled by a computer.

Re: Cam for a Stock Bottom 318 [Re: mshred] #3147445
05/29/23 02:48 PM
05/29/23 02:48 PM
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ILLINOIS
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Originally Posted by mshred
Originally Posted by dizuster
I 318 obviously doesn't have a ton of torque to start with so you have to error on the small side.

But a 3.73 gear w/3000 stall is going to want a way different cam than a 2.76 w/stock converter.

I think you need to firm up that plan first before you pick the cam.


Its a pretty firm plan, although it may not get that gear and converter right away. However, would a cam suited to that gear and converter kill vacuum before making the change? I will probably try for 3.55s first, just depends if the car stays with an 8-1/4 rear or an 8.8 ford.


Your choice of gear and stall has nothing to do with the vacuum an engine makes. Thouh like timing how much you have at any given rpm and load will be different. For "cruise" condition you want to he highest reading a given engine can have at the time.
And what brand of rear also means nothing for what you're asking. 3.55s are3.55s.
Won't change how the car runs down the road at all.

Re: Cam for a Stock Bottom 318 [Re: volaredon] #3147559
05/30/23 09:57 AM
05/30/23 09:57 AM
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Weddington, N.C.
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The best bet would be something like an RV cam that will give you a good cruise and great throttle response,

You're not going to be revving it high so something that's around 212I/218E @.050 on 108 in at 104 would certainly make a 318 a bit more snappy,

the '302 heart shaped chamber heads from a late 80's 318 with a little clean-up work in the bowls and a nice valve job would make a big improvement in torque, even with a stock-ish cam,

Even if you do go 3.55 or 3.73 gears you're not going to do a whole lot better than a cam in that range, IMO it's better to slightly undercam a 318 than to overcam it.


WIZE

World's Quickest Diahatsu Rocky (??) 414" Stroker Small block Mopar Powered. 10.84 @ 123...and gettin' quicker!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mWzLma3YGI

In Car:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjXcf95e6v0
Re: Cam for a Stock Bottom 318 [Re: volaredon] #3147560
05/30/23 10:01 AM
05/30/23 10:01 AM
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Toronto
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mshred Offline OP
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Originally Posted by volaredon
"hopefully I can run locked out timing"
Wrong answer.
That's great for an industrial engine that runs a steady speed any and all times it's running/
Something like a generator or a irrigation pump, etc....
But for a cruiser car that is the last thing you want. Because an engine like that runs a range of rpms and depends on where you are in that range at any given time, the timing you want changes with load and rpm....
I saw Edelbrock carb, not injection in your list. Only other time locked timing works is when it's controlled by a computer.


I had the timing locked on my 408 stroker with a Holley carb and the car ran and performed great, so I am going to have to disagree. I would see the only downside as possibly losing a few mpg when vacuum advance would kick in on a standard vacuum style distributor, or the potential hard start issue. I would prefer locked out timing, as in my eyes its one less thing to worry about, and I don't need to tune a "curve" in a distributor- the timing for performance is always there.

Re: Cam for a Stock Bottom 318 [Re: volaredon] #3147562
05/30/23 10:03 AM
05/30/23 10:03 AM
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mshred Offline OP
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Originally Posted by volaredon
Originally Posted by mshred
Originally Posted by dizuster
I 318 obviously doesn't have a ton of torque to start with so you have to error on the small side.

But a 3.73 gear w/3000 stall is going to want a way different cam than a 2.76 w/stock converter.

I think you need to firm up that plan first before you pick the cam.


Its a pretty firm plan, although it may not get that gear and converter right away. However, would a cam suited to that gear and converter kill vacuum before making the change? I will probably try for 3.55s first, just depends if the car stays with an 8-1/4 rear or an 8.8 ford.


Your choice of gear and stall has nothing to do with the vacuum an engine makes. Thouh like timing how much you have at any given rpm and load will be different. For "cruise" condition you want to he highest reading a given engine can have at the time.
And what brand of rear also means nothing for what you're asking. 3.55s are3.55s.
Won't change how the car runs down the road at all.


I didn't think so, as I always thought vacuum was more for at idle, but never having had power brakes or a/c in a car of this nature before, just thought I would make sure. In regards to the rear, I just meant by the ratios available for each depending on which one I go with...One may have a 3.50 ratio, the other a 3.55....

Re: Cam for a Stock Bottom 318 [Re: Streetwize] #3147564
05/30/23 10:07 AM
05/30/23 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Streetwize
The best bet would be something like an RV cam that will give you a good cruise and great throttle response,

You're not going to be revving it high so something that's around 212I/218E @.050 on 108 in at 104 would certainly make a 318 a bit more snappy,

the '302 heart shaped chamber heads from a late 80's 318 with a little clean-up work in the bowls and a nice valve job would make a big improvement in torque, even with a stock-ish cam,

Even if you do go 3.55 or 3.73 gears you're not going to do a whole lot better than a cam in that range, IMO it's better to slightly undercam a 318 than to overcam it.


Thanks for the input Wize. I notice a lot of the 318 cams with smaller duration seem to have wider LSA's on them, but I had a tight LSA cam in one of my 360 combos that was installed at 104 or 102 (cant remember) and it really helped with bottom end. I know this engine is going to be 6000 MAX, probably well below that, before its tapping out.

Because of the budget, heads are off the table right now, otherwise I would go straight for some aluminums and some thin head gaskets to help compression. My budget currently only allows for a cam and lifters, headers, and intake while utilizing the eddy carb I already have.

Do you have any 318 grinds that you have used that you prefer, like specific part numbers?

Re: Cam for a Stock Bottom 318 [Re: mshred] #3147580
05/30/23 11:55 AM
05/30/23 11:55 AM
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Weddington, N.C.
Streetwize Offline
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It's been so long since I did any hydraulic flat tappets but the old Ultradynes were great lobes for making broad torque, I think (hope) Bullet still has the masters and still grinds them. There used to be an old Lunati cam that was like 218 @ 050 cut on 108 I put in my buddy's old "318" warlock truck that ran really well too,

I've heard great things about Howard's and it seems they are one of the only major grinders that has off-the-shelf hydraulics on anything tighter than 110.

Something like this HOWARDS would be good off the shelf...but I'd prefer to see like a 213 @ 050 single pattern (for your lower compression)

HYDRAULIC FLAT TAPPET STREET FORCE 2 CAMSHAFT; 1964 - 2003 CHRYSLER 273, 340, 360 1500 TO 5000 HOWARDS CAMS 710031-12
SKU: 710031-12
UPC:
840793114856
CATEGORY:
Camshafts and Cam & Lifter Sets

DESCRIPTION(active tab)
DETAILS

Lift: .450 / .465, Duration @ .050: 213 / 223, Centerline: 108, Street Force 2, Good idle & throttle response, Needs 4-barrel & good exhaust.

The old Comp 260H was i think 210 or 212 @.050, and they were pretty good at waking up any mild smallblock , i think they were cut on 110 spreads. I don't really like the clater the newer XE grinds made in mopars but the old ones seemed fine.


WIZE

World's Quickest Diahatsu Rocky (??) 414" Stroker Small block Mopar Powered. 10.84 @ 123...and gettin' quicker!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mWzLma3YGI

In Car:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjXcf95e6v0
Re: Cam for a Stock Bottom 318 [Re: Streetwize] #3147586
05/30/23 12:20 PM
05/30/23 12:20 PM
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So. Burlington, Vt.
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fast68plymouth Offline
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I’d look at something like one of the Isky SuperCams.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: Cam for a Stock Bottom 318 [Re: Streetwize] #3147609
05/30/23 02:14 PM
05/30/23 02:14 PM
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mshred Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Streetwize
It's been so long since I did any hydraulic flat tappets but the old Ultradynes were great lobes for making broad torque, I think (hope) Bullet still has the masters and still grinds them. There used to be an old Lunati cam that was like 218 @ 050 cut on 108 I put in my buddy's old "318" warlock truck that ran really well too,

I've heard great things about Howard's and it seems they are one of the only major grinders that has off-the-shelf hydraulics on anything tighter than 110.

Something like this HOWARDS would be good off the shelf...but I'd prefer to see like a 213 @ 050 single pattern (for your lower compression)

HYDRAULIC FLAT TAPPET STREET FORCE 2 CAMSHAFT; 1964 - 2003 CHRYSLER 273, 340, 360 1500 TO 5000 HOWARDS CAMS 710031-12
SKU: 710031-12
UPC:
840793114856
CATEGORY:
Camshafts and Cam & Lifter Sets

DESCRIPTION(active tab)
DETAILS

Lift: .450 / .465, Duration @ .050: 213 / 223, Centerline: 108, Street Force 2, Good idle & throttle response, Needs 4-barrel & good exhaust.

The old Comp 260H was i think 210 or 212 @.050, and they were pretty good at waking up any mild smallblock , i think they were cut on 110 spreads. I don't really like the clater the newer XE grinds made in mopars but the old ones seemed fine.








Thanks for the response. I looked up that cam on summit, quite a bit more then some others and it seems the LSA is 112 according to summit specs shruggy

Re: Cam for a Stock Bottom 318 [Re: fast68plymouth] #3147610
05/30/23 02:14 PM
05/30/23 02:14 PM
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mshred Offline OP
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Originally Posted by fast68plymouth
I’d look at something like one of the Isky SuperCams.


Are there any in particular that are good candidates?

Re: Cam for a Stock Bottom 318 [Re: fast68plymouth] #3147621
05/30/23 02:55 PM
05/30/23 02:55 PM
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north of coder
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my one buddy put together a 72 duster for his wife several years ago. [may even be closer to ten or 15. ya all know how times flies by !]
as he had no engine and transmission for this thing, and i had a good 318/904 sitting in my shop that was in the road, i gave it to him. it was out of a 74[ish] 2wd pickup, and only had a very low 40k [i'm thinking around 42] on it, i figured it would be good enough for how those folks drive their cars.
i pulled the heads off, did a fast-n-sloppy valve job, pulled a couple of main & rod caps to have a lookie see, [they were great !] bores looked good [still cross hatch on the walls and no signs of rust from sitting around] new double roller timing chain with advance keys cut, gaskets, core plugs, fuel pump, water pump, etc, etc...........
had it all together, then he says : "i want a lumpy cam........." really ? the way you guys drive that thing ???????
ok, so i had [or got, i can't remember] a factory hydraulic 340 stick cam and lifter kit. i don't even remember the brand. put it in "dot-to-dot" 4 advanced, never checked anything, and buttoned it up. still had the 318 valve springs the truck motor came with. [no exhaust rotators]
had an old 318 streetmaster intake with the tiny ports on the shelf, gave that to him. [he just COULDN'T have the LOWLY 2 barrel intake the truck came with !] got one of those chinesium cast adapter plates to mate a 500cfm carterbrock to the super small plenum streetmaster.
anyway, that combo was installed with the stock pickup converter that was in the 904, along with a "home made shift kit" [i had some leftover TF2 parts] and a B-body width 8 3/4 with 2.94 peg leg gears.
then it sat while the body work and paint was done.
exhaust ended up being a TTI 2 1/2" system using iron manifolds [can't tell ya from what, although the TTI dealer needed the casting numbers for the correct head pipes] and going through dynomax mufflers.
they got it running [not doing the proper break-in procedure ! mad] so a couple of weeks after, they asked me to tune it up, as it was pretty doggy.
first thing i thought of was a couple of cam lobes gone, but it turned out to be the distributor was set at 5 degrees AFTER tdc, instead of 15 or so before !
i tweeked the carb some, and that thing sounded GOOD ! to say i was surprised would be a HUGE understatement !
also had 25+lbs of oil pressure at idle, instantly jumping to 60 at the crack of the throttle.
had a nasty sounding idle, and after taking it for a ride, driving it like i stole it with my buddy along, that thing ran GREAT ! roasted the peg leg from an idle after breaking loose both rear tires for about 10 feet or so until the pegger couldn't keep up.....
got back to his house, and he couldn't believe the car ran that well after i had fiddled with it some.
car is still running great till this day, and with the 2.94 gears, on trips they get 20+mpg the way they drive.
the point i'm trying to make [if one could call it that] is, this combo was just tossed together with junk i had laying around that was in my road [with the exception of the carterbrock carb, intake adapter, and the carterbrock adapter needed for the transmission kick down linkage], given to a friend, and the results were exceptionally surprising to me !
will this work for everyone ? who knows ? probably not, but maybe if one is lucky or has lead a good life like my buddy has.
remember, this is just what happened to ME throwing a lowly 318 together.
your mileage WILL vary............
beer







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