Re: Radiator cooling efficiency
[Re: Ramman]
#3118097
02/01/23 12:57 PM
02/01/23 12:57 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,469 Omaha Ne
TJP
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,469
Omaha Ne
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Getting ready to purchase a replacement radiator for a 70 E-body 440 with A/C. This combo can test a cooling systems ability to maintain proper cooling. Already have a good fan clutch and fan shroud. 2 decisions to make. Which is better, 2 rows of 1" tubes? 3 rows of 5/8" tubes? 4 rows of 1/2" tubes? Also what is the best material? Aluminum or Copper/Brass?
Thanks Group!! With the above being said there is only 1 place IMO, he is not cheap, but QUALITY never is. In addition resolving cooling problems can be a much more costly experience, in one case ~ 20X. That is right, 20 times the cost of his radiator and that is a conservative estimate GLEN RAY RADIATORS
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Re: Radiator cooling efficiency
[Re: TJP]
#3118108
02/01/23 01:49 PM
02/01/23 01:49 PM
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Joined: May 2019
Posts: 6,299 nowhere
Sniper
master
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master
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 6,299
nowhere
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Getting ready to purchase a replacement radiator for a 70 E-body 440 with A/C. This combo can test a cooling systems ability to maintain proper cooling. Already have a good fan clutch and fan shroud. 2 decisions to make. Which is better, 2 rows of 1" tubes? 3 rows of 5/8" tubes? 4 rows of 1/2" tubes? Also what is the best material? Aluminum or Copper/Brass?
Thanks Group!! With the above being said there is only 1 place IMO, he is not cheap, but QUALITY never is. In addition resolving cooling problems can be a much more costly experience, in one case ~ 20X. That is right, 20 times the cost of his radiator and that is a conservative estimate GLEN RAY RADIATORS Takes a special kind of thinking to spend ~$28k to resolve a cooling system issue.
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Re: Radiator cooling efficiency
[Re: Ramman]
#3118113
02/01/23 02:21 PM
02/01/23 02:21 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,257 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,257
Bend,OR USA
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Last edited by Cab_Burge; 02/01/23 02:21 PM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Radiator cooling efficiency
[Re: TJP]
#3118129
02/01/23 03:19 PM
02/01/23 03:19 PM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,915 Central Florida
larrymopar360
Stud Muffin
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Stud Muffin
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,915
Central Florida
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Getting ready to purchase a replacement radiator for a 70 E-body 440 with A/C. This combo can test a cooling systems ability to maintain proper cooling. Already have a good fan clutch and fan shroud. 2 decisions to make. Which is better, 2 rows of 1" tubes? 3 rows of 5/8" tubes? 4 rows of 1/2" tubes? Also what is the best material? Aluminum or Copper/Brass?
Thanks Group!! With the above being said there is only 1 place IMO, he is not cheap, but QUALITY never is. In addition resolving cooling problems can be a much more costly experience, in one case ~ 20X. That is right, 20 times the cost of his radiator and that is a conservative estimate GLEN RAY RADIATORS Definitely Glen Ray
Facts are stubborn things.
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Re: Radiator cooling efficiency
[Re: Andrewh]
#3118134
02/01/23 03:53 PM
02/01/23 03:53 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,618 Freeport IL USA
poorboy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,618
Freeport IL USA
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The double and triple pass radiators come from the circle track racing people. The concept is the coolant flows through the radiator like normal, but then passes through it a 2nd or a 3rd time, at about the same flow rate as a single pass. The process lowers the coolant temp leaving the radiator significantly without slowing the coolant flow.
If you really want to test a cooling system, test it in circle track racing.
In a 50 or 100 lap feature event, the motor runs wide open for 3/4 of each lap. The other 1/4 its either slowing down dramatically, or under its greatest load, lap after lap. Air flow through the radiator is always a challenge, often the "traffic" in front of you is right at your front bumper, and generally, the opining for the air flow is kept to the minimum to increase the aerodynamics if no one is in front of you. If that 100 lap feature event is held on a 1/4 mile track, the motor is running like that for 25 straight miles, if the track is bigger, its even more miles. Should the race be halted for any reason, the delay is probably worse for the cooling system, because the delay would be too short to cool anything down, and the delay may result in a total stop, sit and wait, to resume. It would be about the same as running down the highway at 100 mph pushing the car in front of you for 12 1/2 miles on a curvy road with 40 mph turns every 1/8 mile, then stopping at a long traffic light in some small town, the turn around on the same road resume the race at 100 mph speed on that same curvy road, pushing the car in front of you, for the rest of the 25 mile trip.
Any double or triple flow radiators I've seen were all aluminum. They will not look anywhere near OEM if that is a concern, and you may have to alter your inlet or outlet hose configuration.
If the OEM look is important, your options disappear quickly.
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Re: Radiator cooling efficiency
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#3118152
02/01/23 05:28 PM
02/01/23 05:28 PM
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442 NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442
NW Chicago suburban area
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U.S. Radiator relocated to Arkansas (from Calif) a few years ago.
I purchased a 22" "Triple Flow" aluminum radiator (with two 1.25" rows) from them... appears as a stock factory radiator (upper and lower tanks).... I have a 22" core opening.
I have no problems while regular driving, however, under ~20-30 minute road race lapping ... and extreme pylon autocross competition (lots of autocross runs at MOPARTY!), the engine runs hot... I intend to install one or two shrouded electric puller fans (replacing my aluminum 7-blade clutch fan and factory shroud)... hoping that will help... especially during long runs and in-between runs. I've tried running 160,180 and 195 thermostats... no difference with the hi-heat issues when racing long periods of time. I'll typically turn on the heater full-blast to reduce the heat when racing.
I'm also going to make and install an upper flat shroud.. grille-to-core-support... as I see on all road race cars at various tracks.
Last edited by Mopar Mitch; 02/01/23 05:32 PM.
Mopar Mitch
"Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers!
Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
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Re: Radiator cooling efficiency
[Re: Ramman]
#3118154
02/01/23 05:45 PM
02/01/23 05:45 PM
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 960 Chicago
PurpleBeeper
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 960
Chicago
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1. In general, more surface area cools better & you can "approximate" that by adding up the inches.....e.g. 2 rows of 1/2" cools about the same as 1 row of 1" tubes.... so 3 rows of 5/8" tubes is the best from your list 2. Brass cools slightly better than aluminum, but weighs A LOT more (costs more too) Getting ready to purchase a replacement radiator for a 70 E-body 440 with A/C. This combo can test a cooling systems ability to maintain proper cooling. Already have a good fan clutch and fan shroud. 2 decisions to make. Which is better, 2 rows of 1" tubes? 3 rows of 5/8" tubes? 4 rows of 1/2" tubes? Also what is the best material? Aluminum or Copper/Brass?
Thanks Group!!
70 Roadrunner convt. street car
440+6, NOS, 4-spd, SS springs
'96 Mustang GT convt. street car
'04 4.6 SOHC, NOS, auto, lowered
"Officer, that button is for short on-ramps"
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Re: Radiator cooling efficiency
[Re: Sniper]
#3118203
02/01/23 11:04 PM
02/01/23 11:04 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,469 Omaha Ne
TJP
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,469
Omaha Ne
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Getting ready to purchase a replacement radiator for a 70 E-body 440 with A/C. This combo can test a cooling systems ability to maintain proper cooling. Already have a good fan clutch and fan shroud. 2 decisions to make. Which is better, 2 rows of 1" tubes? 3 rows of 5/8" tubes? 4 rows of 1/2" tubes? Also what is the best material? Aluminum or Copper/Brass?
Thanks Group!! With the above being said there is only 1 place IMO, he is not cheap, but QUALITY never is. In addition resolving cooling problems can be a much more costly experience, in one case ~ 20X. That is right, 20 times the cost of his radiator and that is a conservative estimate GLEN RAY RADIATORS Takes a special kind of thinking to spend ~$28k to resolve a cooling system issue. Mr. Sniper, It takes a special kind of person to make snide remarks without knowing the facts I believe what I accomplished is referred to as TENACITY, PERSISTENCE, and a happy customer. I resolved an issue that unbeknownst to me at the time had plagued the car for over 10 years. I am known for resolving issues that others had not been able to, this was only ONE of many. Did the customer pay 28K? NO!. He paid what he could afford and I ate the rest. Would you have done the same?
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Re: Radiator cooling efficiency
[Re: 71birdJ68]
#3118205
02/01/23 11:16 PM
02/01/23 11:16 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,469 Omaha Ne
TJP
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,469
Omaha Ne
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Chrysler made millions of cars back then that didn't have any trouble with cooling. Do you have a factory 7 blade fan and the correct water pump and is it a factory shroud? What is the engine tune like? Glen Ray uses cooling tubes which are similar to what big truck use, that is one reason they cost more. Bob is the best in the business. AGREED 100%, So what's the difference? The efficiency of the majority of today's replacement cores. They are not ALL created equal as the bean counters and "improved" manufacturing processes over the years have slowly degraded the efficiency in the chase of profit. While discussing 1-2-3-4 rows there are several other variables, IE: tube thickness. the number of fins per inch, the thickness of those fins, louvered fins, staggering the rows, the methods used to manufacture the cores. All of these and a few more affect the efficiency.
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Re: Radiator cooling efficiency
[Re: TJP]
#3118214
02/02/23 12:06 AM
02/02/23 12:06 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,526 N.E. OHIO, USA
A12
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,526
N.E. OHIO, USA
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What would happen if you put (plumbed) a radiator, any material radiator, in a vacuum by itself? Of course, being a vacuum there is no air, so how would it cool or dissipate that heat? When we started water cooling off road/MX motorcycle engines the engineers reminded me that the engines are not necessarily "water cooled" as the water (coolant/anti-freeze) is just the "medium" for taking the heat from the engine (combustion, friction i.e, clutch friction) to a place that it can more efficiently dissipate that heat, by transferring it to a larger surface and then having it transferred to the air via airflow over the surface of a radiator as an example. So airflow is the key and not just the number of veins or surface area. We also stopped painting the radiators with black paint and found a somewhat clear coating that dissipated heat much better that paint. Most forget about airflow and if you still think airflow has not much to do with it, watch a NASCAR race sometime and watch how a hotdog wrapper will overheat a car in only lap or less. Then watch how a crew member will take and put a small piece of duct tape on the grill or air intake to get the temp back up or peel it off to cool it down. AIRFLOW. As mentioned the radiator shroud and the fan plays a bigger part on how the cooling system works IMO than the row layout, just me and my Mike
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Re: Radiator cooling efficiency
[Re: TJP]
#3118293
02/02/23 01:03 PM
02/02/23 01:03 PM
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Joined: May 2019
Posts: 6,299 nowhere
Sniper
master
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master
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 6,299
nowhere
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Getting ready to purchase a replacement radiator for a 70 E-body 440 with A/C. This combo can test a cooling systems ability to maintain proper cooling. Already have a good fan clutch and fan shroud. 2 decisions to make. Which is better, 2 rows of 1" tubes? 3 rows of 5/8" tubes? 4 rows of 1/2" tubes? Also what is the best material? Aluminum or Copper/Brass?
Thanks Group!! With the above being said there is only 1 place IMO, he is not cheap, but QUALITY never is. In addition resolving cooling problems can be a much more costly experience, in one case ~ 20X. That is right, 20 times the cost of his radiator and that is a conservative estimate GLEN RAY RADIATORS Takes a special kind of thinking to spend ~$28k to resolve a cooling system issue. Mr. Sniper, It takes a special kind of person to make snide remarks without knowing the facts I believe what I accomplished is referred to as TENACITY, PERSISTENCE, and a happy customer. I resolved an issue that unbeknownst to me at the time had plagued the car for over 10 years. I am known for resolving issues that others had not been able to, this was only ONE of many. Did the customer pay 28K? NO!. He paid what he could afford and I ate the rest. Would you have done the same? The cooling system isn't magic. You want me to revise my comment, then give us the facts otherwise I have no basis other than your claim of what it cost to fix an issue that isn't rocket science.
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Re: Radiator cooling efficiency
[Re: Ramman]
#3118331
02/02/23 02:28 PM
02/02/23 02:28 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,422 Kalispell Mt.
HotRodDave
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,422
Kalispell Mt.
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Getting ready to purchase a replacement radiator for a 70 E-body 440 with A/C. This combo can test a cooling systems ability to maintain proper cooling. Already have a good fan clutch and fan shroud. 2 decisions to make. Which is better, 2 rows of 1" tubes? 3 rows of 5/8" tubes? 4 rows of 1/2" tubes? Also what is the best material? Aluminum or Copper/Brass?
Thanks Group!! 2 rows of 1" tubes will keep the engine cool if the rest of the cooling system is correct, the others "can" dissipate more heat but there isn't any heat left for them to dissipate if the rest of the cooling system is right and the only thing they will dissipate is money from your wallet. The others will have more places that are likely to leak also. Now if you don't have good coolant circulation because your water pump is turning too slow or blades worn or not enough of them or the air under the hood is not managed properly by the shroud and things to block the air from circulating AROUND the radiator than the more expensive options may cover up those other issues.
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
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Re: Radiator cooling efficiency
[Re: Sniper]
#3118368
02/02/23 05:11 PM
02/02/23 05:11 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,469 Omaha Ne
TJP
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,469
Omaha Ne
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Takes a special kind of thinking to spend ~$28k to resolve a cooling system issue.
Mr. Sniper, It takes a special kind of person to make snide remarks without knowing the facts I believe what I accomplished is referred to as TENACITY, PERSISTENCE, and a happy customer. I resolved an issue that unbeknownst to me at the time had plagued the car for over 10 years. I am known for resolving issues that others had not been able to, this was only ONE of many. Did the customer pay 28K? NO!. He paid what he could afford and I ate the rest. Would you have done the same? The cooling system isn't magic. You want me to revise my comment, then give us the facts otherwise I have no basis other than your claim of what it cost to fix an issue that isn't rocket science. Maybe one should inquire about the facts before making the snide comments you seem to enjoy posting. FYI the short version is within this recent post from last year https://board.moparts.org/ubbthread...recore-a-26-hd-radiator.html#Post3095492
Another in which you were involved also lists a little bit of info on my background / experiences in this area LINKY 2I would like to ask that you read your comments as though they were directed at you and how you might take them. That also is not rocket science but rather something we should have been taught and all try to do. It's called being respectful to each other, EVEN IF WE DISAGREE. Our world world benefit from it. We are supposed to be here to help, not ridicule each other
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