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Re: Dynoing soon! 550 cu un 572-13 what will it make? [Re: gregsdart] #3109227
01/05/23 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted by gregsdart
I am not sure on the valve job, i assume three angle? I never thought to look!
Thanks for the comments! I have decided to wait and not change anything till i run it, or come across solid proof what i want to change will be a positive. This is what i think needs addressing at this point. Fix vacuum leaks. Remove spraybar oiling- reason; my system wasn't pushing out oil before through the vacuum system. Same system, over a full quart, maybe two in my big vacuum breather tank from ten pulls. The motor has to be making a lot of oil froth to do that.
Also this motor has a wierd dome shape that i don't like, and timing ended at 37 degrees total, and i ran 34 without that weird little dome in the 440-1 headed combo. So if i ever want to raise compression i think it best to wait till i can have that little odd ball bubble part of the dome removed.
My apologys if i missed anybodys questions.




3 angle is pretty old school in today’s racing world but some still do it. I would be curious what percentage the throat diameter is set at with the 2.300 intake valve. Some guys push it but 90-91% is a safe figure


1970 Duster
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Re: Dynoing soon! 550 cu un 572-13 what will it make? [Re: pittsburghracer] #3109259
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I am curious if aluminum blocks are still assumed to lose power over an iron block?
I checked the lash this afternoon, block was at 65 degrees. Lash was loose on all, some as loose as .011 intake, many at .009. Cam card says . 019 intake lash, .020 exhaust lash. I set them at . 006 intake and .007 exhaust at 71 degrees block temp before the dyno session.
Since the valvetrain is all new except the lifters, i expected to see .002 extra due to breakin. But with some as wide as .011 i wonder if that could have cost me a couple of ponies. I did attempt to set the lash after a number of full pulls, but was not able to accurately check at tdc, 90, 180, 270 where i wanted to. Which brings up another test i can do now that i have the drive manderal off, exposing the damper bolt. I want to see where i should be checking lash, which i assume would be close to the zero lash point on the ramps. I charted actual lash change every five degrees on the base circle and saw the lash go from . 019 to . 025 in the middle of the base circle, then gradually back to . 019. The actual duration on the intakes is 350 degrees. At . 050 lobe lift it is 284 degrees. So the ramp is 33 degrees long on each side before reaching .000 to start valve lift. I am a bit paranoid over this, having had more than my share of broken valvetrain parts over the years.

Last edited by gregsdart; 01/06/23 03:28 AM.

8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
Re: Dynoing soon! 550 cu un 572-13 what will it make? [Re: gregsdart] #3109309
01/06/23 10:58 AM
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My thoughts as a home builder. I'm no head porter. I trust the guy working on the heads to make the correct decision. I don't 2nd guess him. Especially with zero track time. Check lash hot on a few to get a number. That number can change pretty quickly as it cools. Then check the same valves cold. Set them cold. Being yours are aluminum block/heads, this setting is either going to be very tight. Or maybe even unachievable cold. But I would certainly test it. As far as compression. 14-1 change to 15-1 is a pretty small step in power. Not a lot to gain for the work involved. My -1s are only 57cc. So compression is basicly controlled by valve notch size and gasket. If I was more scientific maybe a slight dish or milled angle on the quench pad would be a pick-up? Never tried it. It could be 15.4-1 with the existing 10cc notches. I actully went with a slightly thicker gasket to keep it at 15-1. From history it doesn't detonate at 15-1 on 114 fuel so it was left alone. Vacuum leaks will pull oil right thru the motor into the tank. I'd fix them before condeming any other component/system. 20-25 passes on mine puts about 1 1/2" of oil in the bottom of a plastic water bottle when drained. My advise? Take a step back. Fix what you know is wrong. Lash and leaks. Test it in the car with fuel and timing loops. Then reaccess what you think.
Doug

Re: Dynoing soon! 550 cu un 572-13 what will it make? [Re: gregsdart] #3109319
01/06/23 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by gregsdart
Cam card says . 019 intake lash, .020 exhaust lash. I set them at . 006 intake and .007 exhaust at 71 degrees block temp before the dyno session.
I am in agreement with that approach using aluminum block and heads. My first try was 0.008/0.010 at 70 deg with cam card 0.023/0.025 for 1.7 ratio rockers. If I check them now, between 0.005-0.012 are fine with me. Typically I have found 0.010-0.012 cold.


1993 Daytona, 5.50 at 130mph (1/8) 1.19 sixty ft (PG). Link to 572 B1 - Part 1
Re: Dynoing soon! 550 cu un 572-13 what will it make? [Re: dvw] #3109344
01/06/23 12:03 PM
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[quote=dvw]My thoughts as a home builder. I'm no head porter. I trust the guy working on the heads to make the correct decision. I don't 2nd guess him. Especially with zero track time. Check lash hot on a few to get a number. That number can change pretty quickly as it cools. Then check the same valves cold. Set them cold. Being yours are aluminum block/heads, this setting is either going to be very tight. Or maybe even unachievable cold. But I would certainly test it. As far as compression. 14-1 change to 15-1 is a pretty small step in power. Not a lot to gain for the work involved. My -1s are only 57cc. So compression is basicly controlled by valve notch size and gasket. If I was more scientific maybe a slight dish or milled angle on the quench pad would be a pick-up? Never tried it. It could be 15.4-1 with the existing 10cc notches. I actully went with a slightly thicker gasket to keep it at 15-1. From history it doesn't detonate at 15-1 on 114 fuel so it was left alone. Vacuum leaks will pull oil right thru the motor into the tank. I'd fix them before condeming any other component/system. 20-25 passes on mine puts about 1 1/2" of oil in the bottom of a plastic water bottle when drained. My advise? Take a step back. Fix what you know is wrong. Lash and leaks. Test it in the car with fuel and timing loops. Then reaccess what you think.
Doug


^^^^^^ This right here

Re: Dynoing soon! 550 cu un 572-13 what will it make? [Re: mopar873] #3109443
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Doug, Jim, 873, i agree, i was too focused on a majic number on a piece of paper. So i am going to fix the vacuum leaks, learn the lash/cold setting and one other change, go back to the fatter bypass pill i started with for best torque, then lean out the top end with the hi speed bypass. Pretty simple moves, no guess work involved. You guys are right, i need to trust the guy i had do the heads, not change stuff before giving them a chance to perform. I will shut down the spraybar system though as a test at the track just to see what happens.


8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
Re: Dynoing soon! 550 cu un 572-13 what will it make? [Re: gregsdart] #3109678
01/07/23 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by gregsdart
Doug, Jim, 873, i agree, i was too focused on a majic number on a piece of paper. So i am going to fix the vacuum leaks, learn the lash/cold setting and one other change, go back to the fatter bypass pill i started with for best torque, then lean out the top end with the hi speed bypass. Pretty simple moves, no guess work involved. You guys are right, i need to trust the guy i had do the heads, not change stuff before giving them a chance to perform. I will shut down the spraybar system though as a test at the track just to see what happens.

Can i get a witness? lol

Re: Dynoing soon! 550 cu un 572-13 what will it make? [Re: HardcoreB] #3109770
01/07/23 02:12 PM
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As stated a vacuum leak will pull oil into the tank quickly, get that fixed. As for cold lash there is no magic number with an aluminum block. They all seem to vary. I can tell you I have seen as much at .016" of change hot to cold. I can also tell you I have on more than one occasion been at a race that a car would not start because it was to cold out(high 30's ambient) and valves would not seat. Throw it in the trailer with some heat and viola it runs. Soo as stated there is no magic number. I am surprised you did not check lash on the dyno? We always warm the engines up thoroughly then set the lash, especially on an aluminum engine because there is no magic number there. I have never run an engine on the dyno and not checked the last a couple of times on a new build. If you did that and still came up with those results I would make note of the loose one and just keep an eye on it.

The rest of it, just fix the oil leak and send it. Quit worrying about a meaningless dyno number. YES you lose some power with an aluminum block through ring seal, beause they expand/grow at a less than predictable rate. However, the few HP you will give up with an aluminum block is more than made up with the decreased weight in your case going from an iron mega block to aluminum it will be fairly significant. In fact, I would be willing to bet the loss in weight will account for more on the timeslip than any additional power from the new combo. It's simple math. Ultimately the timeslip and thje scale will be the judge.


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"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
Re: Dynoing soon! 550 cu un 572-13 what will it make? [Re: Al_Alguire] #3109928
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Originally Posted by Al_Alguire
As stated a vacuum leak will pull oil into the tank quickly, get that fixed. As for cold lash there is no magic number with an aluminum block. They all seem to vary. I can tell you I have seen as much at .016" of change hot to cold. I can also tell you I have on more than one occasion been at a race that a car would not start because it was to cold out(high 30's ambient) and valves would not seat. Throw it in the trailer with some heat and viola it runs. Soo as stated there is no magic number. I am surprised you did not check lash on the dyno? We always warm the engines up thoroughly then set the lash, especially on an aluminum engine because there is no magic number there. I have never run an engine on the dyno and not checked the last a couple of times on a new build. If you did that and still came up with those results I would make note of the loose one and just keep an eye on it.

The rest of it, just fix the oil leak and send it. Quit worrying about a meaningless dyno number. YES you lose some power with an aluminum block through ring seal, beause they expand/grow at a less than predictable rate. However, the few HP you will give up with an aluminum block is more than made up with the decreased weight in your case going from an iron mega block to aluminum it will be fairly significant. In fact, I would be willing to bet the loss in weight will account for more on the timeslip than any additional power from the new combo. It's simple math. Ultimately the timeslip and thje scale will be the judge.

Al, i did run the valves after some pulls and warm ups. Pretty much what i expected, .002+ wear on top of growth from warmup, putting some of them a couple thou loose. When i checked them again at home at 65 degrees block temp, i found most at . 009 to . 010, a couple intakes at . 011. So i set them at 005 and 006 at 65 degrees and will have to test once the motor is in the car for where to set them for a run.
I have 500 watts of heat pads on the pan, good for about 15 dgrees warmup, so i am not concerned about cold starts. But i might being along an extra heater. On early spring or late fall races!


8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
Re: Dynoing soon! 550 cu un 572-13 what will it make? [Re: HardcoreB] #3109931
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Originally Posted by HardcoreB
Originally Posted by gregsdart
Doug, Jim, 873, i agree, i was too focused on a majic number on a piece of paper. So i am going to fix the vacuum leaks, learn the lash/cold setting and one other change, go back to the fatter bypass pill i started with for best torque, then lean out the top end with the hi speed bypass. Pretty simple moves, no guess work involved. You guys are right, i need to trust the guy i had do the heads, not change stuff before giving them a chance to perform. I will shut down the spraybar system though as a test at the track just to see what happens.

Can i get a witness? lol

Sorry HC, you get a wittness! 😊Actually your comments were as impactfull as any. No reason for me to vary from the work i paid for till a lot more info comes in that points to solid gains. On more milling, there is a weird hump on the dome with a bowl in it for the plug tip. And the motor wanted theee more degrees timing than the 440-1 heads, which were milled to 62 cc, and no real dome, just a raised area about . 080 high. So i think that if i want to increase compression, that weird dome has to go.


8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
Re: Dynoing soon! 550 cu un 572-13 what will it make? [Re: gregsdart] #3110062
01/08/23 01:45 PM
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More timing just points to a less efficient cylinder head/chamber/flame front. I don't think any of my B1 stuff has been over 32/33 through the years for peak. The last one is 31 degrees to hit peak power.

Fix the vacuum leak, watch the lash and as my son would say FKN SEND IT!


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"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
Re: Dynoing soon! 550 cu un 572-13 what will it make? [Re: Al_Alguire] #3110073
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I've seen more than one that needed less timing in the car than on the dyno. Jetting can affect optimal timing as well.
Doug

Re: Dynoing soon! 550 cu un 572-13 what will it make? [Re: gregsdart] #3110273
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Originally Posted by gregsdart
[quote=HardcoreB][quote=gregsdart]there is a weird hump on the dome with a bowl in it for the plug tip. And the motor wanted theee more degrees timing than the 440-1 heads, which were milled to 62 cc, and no real dome, just a raised area about . 080 high. So i think that if i want to increase compression, that weird dome has to go.

Thanks Greg, can we see a pic of the piston again? Makes you wonder if the plug placement is 'perfect' in the chamber. I wonder how the engine would react to gas vs Alchy? It'd be interesting to see a burn pattern AFTER YOU ENJOY IT IN THE CAR of course. Although 572-13 heads have been around for a long time, I'm sure there's things to learn about them. To that point, if a builder learned something and it cost him some money, it's within his right to keep it. These are all things to consider for posterity, the consensus seems to be run it and tune it. Although if Gibby did those pistons, I'd still bounce your results off him. Not everyone hits a grandslam on the dyno. And in most of those cases I've seen, if the user doesn't sort it out in the car it never shows what the dyno did. Did anyone ever explain why there's a X cast into these? I never noticed that before.

Re: Dynoing soon! 550 cu un 572-13 what will it make? [Re: HardcoreB] #3110449
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Originally Posted by HardcoreB
[quote=gregsdart][quote=HardcoreB][quote=gregsdart]there is a weird hump on the dome with a bowl in it for the plug tip. And the motor wanted theee more degrees timing than the 440-1 heads, which were milled to 62 cc, and no real dome, just a raised area about . 080 high. So i think that if i want to increase compression, that weird dome has to go.

Thanks Greg, can we see a pic of the piston again? Makes you wonder if the plug placement is 'perfect' in the chamber. I wonder how the engine would react to gas vs Alchy? It'd be interesting to see a burn pattern AFTER YOU ENJOY IT IN THE CAR of course. Although 572-13 heads have been around for a long time, I'm sure there's things to learn about them. To that point, if a builder learned something and it cost him some money, it's within his right to keep it. These are all things to consider for posterity, the consensus seems to be run it and tune it. Although if Gibby did those pistons, I'd still bounce your results off him. Not everyone hits a grandslam on the dyno. And in most of those cases I've seen, if the user doesn't sort it out in the car it never shows what the dyno did. Did anyone ever explain why there's a X cast into these? I never noticed that before. [/quote
these pistons were done by Diamond. I would think you can't hurt them by lowering that dome a touch. As far as what it will ru, same chassis, same headers on the dyno, same fuel system dialed in.

PXL_20221116_213013607~2.jpg

8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
Re: Dynoing soon! 550 cu un 572-13 what will it make? [Re: gregsdart] #3112565
01/16/23 03:48 PM
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I called both Jesel and Jones cams today to find out about lash and cam flex, mainly to find out how best to set the lash . Rob at Jones cams educated me on just what i need for valve springs. His recommendation was to go from the PAC 1248 intake springs and 1247 exhaust springs to a PaC 1324 to reduce seat and over the nose pressure. The 1324 springs will handle the . 848 net lift and drop intake seat peessure from 355 to 275 lbs . Over the nose will go down from 950 to 810. I learned a lot from that phone call . He didn't say any numbers, but indicated there would be some power gains from the change. So for now i plan on switching intake springs and increasing the installed hieght of the exhaust 1247 springs to .100 from coil bind.


8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
Re: Dynoing soon! 550 cu un 572-13 what will it make? [Re: gregsdart] #3112591
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My ONLY suggestion is be careful with the lighter springs. Having been down that road just my advice. However you dont need any more than is necessary to control the valve. Ramp speeds, valve material/weight, weight of components, and RPM all play a roll there.

He ground the cam and he should know.


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Re: Dynoing soon! 550 cu un 572-13 what will it make? [Re: Al_Alguire] #3112616
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I'm a SB guy but I've enjoyed the read. Thanks for posting . As a student of the internal combustion engine I'm not a fan of the plug reliefs. I always learned the plug shouldn't be chocked off

Last edited by DavidDean; 01/16/23 06:39 PM.
Re: Dynoing soon! 550 cu un 572-13 what will it make? [Re: DavidDean] #3112774
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Originally Posted by DavidDean
I'm a SB guy but I've enjoyed the read. Thanks for posting . As a student of the internal combustion engine I'm not a fan of the plug reliefs. I always learned the plug shouldn't be chocked off

I agree, and the extra timing makes me think what you do. My 440-1 550 cube motor made926 hp with a flat dome of only about . 080 height. If i ever pull this thing apart i may just see how much i can lower that dome in combination with cutting the heads .


8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
Re: Dynoing soon! 550 cu un 572-13 what will it make? [Re: Al_Alguire] #3112800
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Originally Posted by Al_Alguire
My ONLY suggestion is be careful with the lighter springs. Having been down that road just my advice. However you dont need any more than is necessary to control the valve. Ramp speeds, valve material/weight, weight of components, and RPM all play a roll there.

He ground the cam and he should know.

Rob from Jones cams talked about what they learned in pro stock valvetrain developement concerning core strength, flex. Pushrod deflection, and what is going on. It was quite an education, but gave me perameters for keeping an eye on stuff, when to retire springs, etc. I came away with if those lighter springs go below 250 lbs after being 275 installed, they are in need of replacement, and be in a stage of weakness that leads to breakage. So with that, i need to calibrate my 5 cent on head spring checker, which uses a beam type small torque wrench for readings, or find a better one to gauge where the springs are in thier life cycle. His comments were based on knowing my rpm limit of 7600, and components in the valvetrain, along with the lobe design in my cam.


8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
Re: Dynoing soon! 550 cu un 572-13 what will it make? [Re: gregsdart] #3112857
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Update:
PAC said i could run the 1247 springs i have on the intakes, go to 1246 on exhaust. I already have 1247 springs and retainers for those or 1246, so all i need to do is order 8 1246 triple springs and i get the seat pressures i need. Hopefully that will help reduce the carnage i have experienced. A side note, Jesel commented i could run a shim against the rocker intake. Gee, i already figured that out!

20200711_205955.jpg
Last edited by gregsdart; 01/17/23 12:12 PM.

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