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Re: Anti Freeze/Coolant in old Mopar
[Re: dogdays]
#1655633
08/09/14 04:43 AM
08/09/14 04:43 AM
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,655
Cut and Shoot, TX
kentj340
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,655
Cut and Shoot, TX
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Quote:
Welcome to The Church of Evans.
So, for grins lets take a look at some combustion chamber temperatures.
From an SAE paper on a 2.2 L 4-cyl, 1993:
http://papers.sae.org/930217/
"Average combustion chamber surface temperatures ranged from 130 degrees C to 248 degrees C, while peak combustion chamber surface temperatures ranged from 142 degrees C to 258 degrees C for WOT conditions."
In Fahrenheit, that's average 266 - 478 degrees and peak 288 - 496 degrees.
These are surface temperatures inside a combustion chamber, so you'd expect the adjacent metal surfaces inside the water jacket to be somewhat but not a whole lot less.
Numbers I have seen in other studies for combustion chamber surface temperatures were not quite this high, but my conclusion is that the water jacket metal near the combustion chambers is well above the boiling point of 50-50 EG/water at 15 psi, especially when under load as in hard acceleration. So there has to be boiling going on at normal engine operating temperature, which helps explain why the system pressures up.
Yes, if paying the Evans price makes you feel like a sucker, then don't pay the Evans price, but Evans certainly does have advantages. When I get my Mopar restored the way I want it, I'll probably be too senile and decrepit to crawl under it any more to change the antifreeze. No more changes, no more pressure in the system to wear out the radiator and hoses - that's what I want.
If somebody didn't get the message, there is no pressure in the system with Evans, no blown hoses, no boil overs. You only buy it once so long as you don't crash the car.
And the use of Evans will help decide my compression ratio, cam, distributor curve, etc. during engine build.
If you don't see two dolphins, you need a vacation.
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Re: Anti Freeze/Coolant in old Mopar
[Re: kentj340]
#1655634
08/09/14 12:09 PM
08/09/14 12:09 PM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,696
jersey
Spaceman Spiff
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,696
jersey
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I have a friend hat used Evans in his lsx turbo mustang.
It brought down the temp 10* over what it was before....but his oil temp went UP 22*.
The heat has to go somewhere....
526 cubes of angry wedge, pushbutton shifted, 9 passenger killer!
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Re: Anti Freeze/Coolant in old Mopar
[Re: DAYCLONA]
#3105979
12/27/22 07:34 PM
12/27/22 07:34 PM
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Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 149
PINE VALLEY
Ray S
member
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member
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 149
PINE VALLEY
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I've been running the Zerex G-05 with 10 oz of RedLine Water Wetter for about 10 years in the toys...the Zerex is clear in color, and not sticky like the green stuff, or staining, plus with the water wetter it knocked 20 degrees of my running temp...I run a 50% water/50% Zerex
Mike
I read a bunch on coolants lately; threads here and on BITOGThe application is the 1971 413-1 RV with OEM brass/solder radiator. Since these radiators now go for about $700 I'd like to be sure the coolant protects it. It also has the industrial heads with extra cooling since it runs WOT for 5-10 minutes at a time pushing 11,000 lbs. This sounds like a reasonable product combo. Opinions?
Last edited by Ray S; 12/27/22 07:59 PM.
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Re: Anti Freeze/Coolant in old Mopar
[Re: TJP]
#3106149
12/28/22 04:23 PM
12/28/22 04:23 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,408
north of coder
moparx
"Butt Crack Bob"
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"Butt Crack Bob"
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,408
north of coder
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I just use the green Prestone / Zerex concentrate and distilled water. Don't use tap water.  i also like to use a sacrificial anode in the system, especially if aluminum components are used, such as cylinder heads. the pictures are of a 1933 OEM flathead ford cylinder head [one of a pair i picked up at a swap meet to use as garage art] that show extreme galvanic corrosion. as i understand, these heads were a one year only item, as they corroded badly using the "water of the day", and were replaced with iron heads until flathead production ceased. this does not say or imply anything about the available aftermarket aluminum heads, such as navarro, sharps, or others. i just thought these pictures may be of interest. 
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Re: Anti Freeze/Coolant in old Mopar
[Re: 440PURSUIT]
#3107197
01/01/23 11:52 AM
01/01/23 11:52 AM
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 957
Chicago
PurpleBeeper
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 957
Chicago
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I am literally an anti-freeze scientist with access to $100k anti-freeze testing and analysis equipment.
1. Evans is snake oil. It is DexCool concentrate (not diluted 50/50). Water removes heat better than propylene/ethylene glycol. The book referenced in an earlier post is wrong....sorry.
2. In general, any coolant that is rated ASTM D3306 will be fine in a car.
3. Don't mix coolants
4. Use distilled or de-ionized water
5. Water Wetter is simply the organic corrosion inhibitor package of antifreeze. Water Wetter sucks vs. aluminum corrosion (Royal Purple's claims about this are correct - I ran the same testing an verified it). The idea about "surfactants allow more intimate water contact with the radiator so it cools better" is 100% [censored]. Those surfactants just make your coolant foamy (not good)
6. Water Wetter/Puple Ice/etc should be blended with water, not antifreeze, if you want them to do what they claim. The real "cooling trick" is removing ethylene glycol and replacing it with water (see #1)
7. The closest to the original Mopar coolant is "Peak Green"..... a very specific Peak with the name "Peak Green", not just any Peak product that happens to be green
8. COLOR of antifreeze means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.... it'd dye... it's food coloring.... I've manufactured many, many products that are exactly the same, but only have a different dye added to them. Insider tip....Royal Purple's Purple Ice (purple) & Lucas' Super Coolant (blue) are identical in every way except the color (no [censored]). They both protect aluminum better than water wetter, but don't last quite as long (a few years or so)
9. About half the coolant sold today is some form of DexCool. The "Death Cool" thing is long gone and was related to gasket material not being resistant to 2-ethylhexanoic acid (DexCool) and that problem was fixed 20 yrs ago.
Last edited by PurpleBeeper; 01/01/23 11:54 AM.
70 Roadrunner convt. street car
440+6, NOS, 4-spd, SS springs
'96 Mustang GT convt. street car
'04 4.6 SOHC, NOS, auto, lowered
"Officer, that button is for short on-ramps"
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Re: Anti Freeze/Coolant in old Mopar
[Re: Ray S]
#3107199
01/01/23 12:01 PM
01/01/23 12:01 PM
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 957
Chicago
PurpleBeeper
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 957
Chicago
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Not a good mixture in my opinion. G-5 is a "HOAT" and not really compatible (kinda sorta) with the "OAT" water wetter. FYI Purple Ice and Super Coolant are both HOAT types...... BUT none of the additives really do anything when added on top of 50/50 antifreeze (the way most people use them....incorrectly)
70 Roadrunner convt. street car
440+6, NOS, 4-spd, SS springs
'96 Mustang GT convt. street car
'04 4.6 SOHC, NOS, auto, lowered
"Officer, that button is for short on-ramps"
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Re: Anti Freeze/Coolant in old Mopar
[Re: PurpleBeeper]
#3107225
01/01/23 01:30 PM
01/01/23 01:30 PM
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Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 149
PINE VALLEY
Ray S
member
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member
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 149
PINE VALLEY
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Not a good mixture in my opinion. G-5 is a "HOAT" and not really compatible (kinda sorta) with the "OAT" water wetter. FYI Purple Ice and Super Coolant are both HOAT types...... BUT none of the additives really do anything when added on top of 50/50 antifreeze (the way most people use them....incorrectly) Thanks for the info I follow BITOG and they talk about silicates https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/does-anyone-still-make-the-old-green-coolant.195444/for a 71 is more or less silicate "better"?
Last edited by Ray S; 01/01/23 02:03 PM.
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Re: Anti Freeze/Coolant in old Mopar
[Re: PurpleBeeper]
#3107259
01/01/23 03:56 PM
01/01/23 03:56 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,372
Omaha Ne
TJP
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,372
Omaha Ne
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I am literally an anti-freeze scientist with access to $100k anti-freeze testing and analysis equipment.
1. Evans is snake oil. It is DexCool concentrate (not diluted 50/50). Water removes heat better than propylene/ethylene glycol. The book referenced in an earlier post is wrong....sorry.
2. In general, any coolant that is rated ASTM D3306 will be fine in a car.
3. Don't mix coolants
4. Use distilled or de-ionized water
5. Water Wetter is simply the organic corrosion inhibitor package of antifreeze. Water Wetter sucks vs. aluminum corrosion (Royal Purple's claims about this are correct - I ran the same testing an verified it). The idea about "surfactants allow more intimate water contact with the radiator so it cools better" is 100% [censored]. Those surfactants just make your coolant foamy (not good)
6. Water Wetter/Puple Ice/etc should be blended with water, not antifreeze, if you want them to do what they claim. The real "cooling trick" is removing ethylene glycol and replacing it with water (see #1)
7. The closest to the original Mopar coolant is "Peak Green"..... a very specific Peak with the name "Peak Green", not just any Peak product that happens to be green
8. COLOR of antifreeze means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.... it'd dye... it's food coloring.... I've manufactured many, many products that are exactly the same, but only have a different dye added to them. Insider tip....Royal Purple's Purple Ice (purple) & Lucas' Super Coolant (blue) are identical in every way except the color (no [censored]). They both protect aluminum better than water wetter, but don't last quite as long (a few years or so)
9. About half the coolant sold today is some form of DexCool. The "Death Cool" thing is long gone and was related to gasket material not being resistant to 2-ethylhexanoic acid (DexCool) and that problem was fixed 20 yrs ago. THANK YOU SIR  While I am not an antifreeze or chemical engineer my background in engineering is quite broad and I was TAUGHT before one can make claims with any validity. The tests need to be repeated a minimum of 5 times back to back in a controlled laboratory environment. I have tried many "special" products over the years (water wetter, high flow water pumps) as well as many others and found MOST of the claims to be falsehoods. But they do what they were conceived for, to get $$ from your wallet to theirs. years back one of the magazines published an article on Total seal piston rings. they made 3 pulls on their dyno mule that had God knows how many runs on it and established a baseline of 400 HP. They proceeded to hone and re ring the motor. New pulls netted 410HP, WOW a 2.5% gain from just changing to total seal rings. BULLS--T. There were so many holes in that claim that it would take a while to type out. But I'll bet there was a spike in the sales of Total seal rings  
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Re: Anti Freeze/Coolant in old Mopar
[Re: TJP]
#3107278
01/01/23 04:57 PM
01/01/23 04:57 PM
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Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 149
PINE VALLEY
Ray S
member
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member
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 149
PINE VALLEY
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years back one of the magazines published an article on Total seal piston rings. they made 3 pulls on their dyno mule that had God knows how many runs on it and established a baseline of 400 HP. They proceeded to hone and re ring the motor. New pulls netted 410HP, WOW a 2.5% gain from just changing to total seal rings. BULLS--T. There were so many holes in that claim that it would take a while to type out. But I'll bet there was a spike in the sales of Total seal rings Drifting off a bit  , but I did see some good looking tests I believe where racers use crankcase vacuum pumps. Apparently enough gain to warrant a number of professional-cost pumps for them at $300 to $1200... https://inthegaragemedia.com/horsepower-from-nothinghttps://www.dragzine.com/tech-stories/tech-how-external-vacuum-pumps-free-up-horsepowerI'd opt for the passive exhaust version if I get around to new pipes.
Last edited by Ray S; 01/01/23 04:59 PM.
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Re: Anti Freeze/Coolant in old Mopar
[Re: TJP]
#3107461
01/02/23 11:00 AM
01/02/23 11:00 AM
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Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 149
PINE VALLEY
Ray S
member
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member
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 149
PINE VALLEY
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yep, likely snake oil, especially if the motor is 3k rpm as opposed to 8k. Also, seal distortion is a potential issue. As per main topic, I'll stick with enough G05 or Zerex to prevent freezing here. Still wondering if I can switch to a 16lb cap.
Last edited by Ray S; 01/02/23 11:13 AM.
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Re: Anti Freeze/Coolant in old Mopar
[Re: Ray S]
#3107495
01/02/23 12:42 PM
01/02/23 12:42 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,408
north of coder
moparx
"Butt Crack Bob"
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"Butt Crack Bob"
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,408
north of coder
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i ran a 14lb cap on the original radiator in my charger. had no problems with doing that. if your system is in good condition, i see no reason you would have any problems with a 16lb cap. for a long time, 7lb caps were what everyone recommended. and every time you parked, the car seemed to puke. my recommendation is to hide a good recovery tank somewhere, run a 16lb cap, and enjoy the benefits of a closed system while looking factory stock. just my opinion. your mileage will vary.
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Re: Anti Freeze/Coolant in old Mopar
[Re: moparx]
#3107535
01/02/23 12:58 PM
01/02/23 12:58 PM
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Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 149
PINE VALLEY
Ray S
member
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member
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 149
PINE VALLEY
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i ran a 14lb cap on the original radiator in my charger. had no problems with doing that. if your system is in good condition, i see no reason you would have any problems with a 16lb cap. for a long time, 7lb caps were what everyone recommended. and every time you parked, the car seemed to puke. my recommendation is to hide a good recovery tank somewhere, run a 16lb cap, and enjoy the benefits of a closed system while looking factory stock. just my opinion. your mileage will vary. It does gurgle after climbing a mountain and shutting down, even after idling to cool down. I already have a tank hooked up - I'll try a pressure test soon. The 72 radiator and hoses are the same part # so it seems it would be fine. Odd that they use a 16psi once a reservoir was added - seems backwards.
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