Re: The piston ring
[Re: GY3]
#3105021
12/23/22 07:46 PM
12/23/22 07:46 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
madscientist
master
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master
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
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It accounts for 40% of all engine friction according to Lake Speed Jr.!  More than that if you still run tractor rings.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: The piston ring
[Re: GY3]
#3105049
12/23/22 09:17 PM
12/23/22 09:17 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,228
Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,228
Bend,OR USA
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It accounts for 40% of all engine friction according to Lake Speed Jr.! The sizes and type rings will vary on the breakaway torque and the rotational torque, the finish on the cylinder walls will also affect the friction amount  The last race motor I assemble for myself had 1.5,1.5 x3.0 MM low drag race rings in it as I was running a vacuum pump, it was very easy to start rotating and rotate it 
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: The piston ring
[Re: GY3]
#3105070
12/23/22 10:32 PM
12/23/22 10:32 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,735
North Dakota
6PakBee
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,735
North Dakota
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It accounts for 40% of all engine friction according to Lake Speed Jr.! Hmm. Is that 40% of the frictional losses or 40% of all losses? I would think that the oil pump, water pump, and valve train contribute to the majority of mechanical losses, not necessarily frictional.
"We live in a time when intelligent people are being silenced so that stupid people won't be offended".
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Re: The piston ring
[Re: 6PakBee]
#3105111
12/24/22 06:37 AM
12/24/22 06:37 AM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 9,100
Rogue River, OR
Jeremiah
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 9,100
Rogue River, OR
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I often wonder why Ross, Diamond, etc. have not moved their shelf pistons over to a metric ring pack. My guess is availability of the 1.5/1.5/3.0 ring packs for certain bore sizes. Back when we did the 511" short blocks (2013ish) there were no metric ring packs available in 4.375 beyond the standard moly ring sets. I would not do a hotrod engine without upgrading the ring pack.
That brings me to a different topic. Why in the heck don't the piston manufacturers offer a separate part number for piston kits with an upgraded ring package. You have two choices, one of which is calling the piston manufacturer and paying more than Summit or whoever. The other option that is typically quicker and cheaper is buying the piston kit and upgraded ring kit from Summit and just eat a set or at least a 1/3 of a set of rings. Reason I specified 1/3 of a set is because Mahle, who I believe is currently the best value in Mopar stroker piston kits, sells thie GNS stainless ring set only as the top rings. You end up reusing the 2nd ring and oil slinky from the piston kit.
Theee is still nothing wrong with a good moly ring. I have seen moly rings take some serious abuse in a power adder combo that was .022-.024 end gap at 4.375".
Last edited by Jeremiah; 12/24/22 06:39 AM.
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Re: The piston ring
[Re: Jeremiah]
#3105133
12/24/22 09:15 AM
12/24/22 09:15 AM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
madscientist
master
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master
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
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I often wonder why Ross, Diamond, etc. have not moved their shelf pistons over to a metric ring pack. My guess is availability of the 1.5/1.5/3.0 ring packs for certain bore sizes. Back when we did the 511" short blocks (2013ish) there were no metric ring packs available in 4.375 beyond the standard moly ring sets. I would not do a hotrod engine without upgrading the ring pack.
That brings me to a different topic. Why in the heck don't the piston manufacturers offer a separate part number for piston kits with an upgraded ring package. You have two choices, one of which is calling the piston manufacturer and paying more than Summit or whoever. The other option that is typically quicker and cheaper is buying the piston kit and upgraded ring kit from Summit and just eat a set or at least a 1/3 of a set of rings. Reason I specified 1/3 of a set is because Mahle, who I believe is currently the best value in Mopar stroker piston kits, sells thie GNS stainless ring set only as the top rings. You end up reusing the 2nd ring and oil slinky from the piston kit.
Theee is still nothing wrong with a good moly ring. I have seen moly rings take some serious abuse in a power adder combo that was .022-.024 end gap at 4.375". A 1.5 millimeter ring is basically.060 and you already have that. They need to go to 1.0/1.0/2.0 and catch up from being 25 years behind. I have been on the ass of UEM to make their Icon line the 1.0/1.0/2.0 ring pack but they say it would cost too much (thats a lie) and that not many guys would buy a piston for that ring pack because they think it won’t seal up (thats the truth). As for Diamond, Ross and the rest of them…who knows WTH they are waiting for. It’s not ring availability either. That ring pack is very popular.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: The piston ring
[Re: GY3]
#3105164
12/24/22 11:20 AM
12/24/22 11:20 AM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,209
New York
polyspheric
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,209
New York
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What are they waiting for?
Evidence of high enough sales volume to justify the production cost.
Sell 100: $1,000 each
Sell 10,000: $100 each
It's a business, not a hobby.
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: The piston ring
[Re: GY3]
#3105209
12/24/22 12:57 PM
12/24/22 12:57 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,761
Windsor, ON, Canada
Diplomat360
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,761
Windsor, ON, Canada
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Here are the turning torque readings I got while assembling my 408 SB stroker:
TURNING TORQUE - MAINS ONLY: 8 - 10 in-lbs
TURNING TORQUE - 1 PISTON : 10 - 12 in-lbs (0.85 ft-lbs)
TURNING TORQUE - 8 PISTONS : 105 - 150 in-lbs (8 - 12 ft-lbs)
That combo is fitted with Mahle PowerPak stroker piston kit (930271030) components, of which the rings (4035MS-112) are: 4.030" + 0.005" file fit set, 1.0 mm top ring, 1.0 mm second ring (HV385 steel/steel), 2.0 mm oil ring (Napier w/ standard tension).
Keep in mind, this was as "scientific" as a DIY guy like me could get. I literally went through multiple attempts with my in-lbs dial readout torque wrench to see what the steady-state turning torque reading was. So there is a bit of +/- in there.
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