Re: !969 Charger Gages Slow to Start Working - Help
[Re: stumpy]
#3084341
10/08/22 03:06 PM
10/08/22 03:06 PM
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Posts: 1,149 NW New Jersey
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Studying the wire diagram a bit further, I don't see how the Dash gets 12V from the IGN-1 key position unless IGN-1 grabs its 12V source from the ACC circuit inside the ignition switch. is that correct?
1970 Superbird 440 Six BBL, 4-Speed, Dana, FJ5 1969 Daytona Charger 440 4-Speed, Dana, EV2 1971 340 Challenger Conv. Flemington Speedway Pace Car, FC7 1970 340 Six Pack Callenger T/A 4-speed T8 Tan 1971 340 Challenger RT Formal Roof, EV2 w/ V2 Stripe & Orange Houndstooth 1969 Talladega Torino, 428CJ 1969 Gurney Special Cyclone Spoiler II, 351 Cleveland
"Id rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy" Ben Franklin 1755
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Re: !969 Charger Gages Slow to Start Working - Help
[Re: stumpy]
#3084342
10/08/22 03:09 PM
10/08/22 03:09 PM
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Posts: 1,149 NW New Jersey
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I believe the cluster grounds through the screws holding it to the dash. Thanks. I'll try running separate ground to the dash and see if that helps.
1970 Superbird 440 Six BBL, 4-Speed, Dana, FJ5 1969 Daytona Charger 440 4-Speed, Dana, EV2 1971 340 Challenger Conv. Flemington Speedway Pace Car, FC7 1970 340 Six Pack Callenger T/A 4-speed T8 Tan 1971 340 Challenger RT Formal Roof, EV2 w/ V2 Stripe & Orange Houndstooth 1969 Talladega Torino, 428CJ 1969 Gurney Special Cyclone Spoiler II, 351 Cleveland
"Id rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy" Ben Franklin 1755
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Re: !969 Charger Gages Slow to Start Working - Help
[Re: RSI700VIPER]
#3084439
10/08/22 10:27 PM
10/08/22 10:27 PM
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Posts: 10,720 North Dakota
6PakBee
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Studying the wire diagram a bit further, I don't see how the Dash gets 12V from the IGN-1 key position unless IGN-1 grabs its 12V source from the ACC circuit inside the ignition switch. is that correct? The accessories are fed from the ACC terminal on the ignition switch. That is energized in the ACC and Ignition 1 positions of the switch. You are correct, the master splice of the black leads from the ACC terminal are the feeds to virtually everything in the car that isn't individually fused. I find it interesting that you said "When turning the key to ACC, the test light flashes but it doesn't when the key is switched to IGN 1. Looking under the dash, everything appears to be stock and in its proper place with no apparent splices. The IGN1 circuit to the dash eventually starts working after 5-10 minutes so maybe a bad circuit board ground?". In this 5-10 minutes do any of the other accessories like the windshield wipers and turn signals work? That would prove if the splice is being energized initially. I am assuming that initially the test light does not flash when the key is in IGN 1. I do not think it's a ground problem. If it were a ground problem the IVR would not be functioning in ACC.
"We live in a time when intelligent people are being silenced so that stupid people won't be offended".
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Re: !969 Charger Gages Slow to Start Working - Help
[Re: 6PakBee]
#3084479
10/09/22 10:01 AM
10/09/22 10:01 AM
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,149 NW New Jersey
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Studying the wire diagram a bit further, I don't see how the Dash gets 12V from the IGN-1 key position unless IGN-1 grabs its 12V source from the ACC circuit inside the ignition switch. is that correct? The accessories are fed from the ACC terminal on the ignition switch. That is energized in the ACC and Ignition 1 positions of the switch. You are correct, the master splice of the black leads from the ACC terminal are the feeds to virtually everything in the car that isn't individually fused. I find it interesting that you said "When turning the key to ACC, the test light flashes but it doesn't when the key is switched to IGN 1. Looking under the dash, everything appears to be stock and in its proper place with no apparent splices. The IGN1 circuit to the dash eventually starts working after 5-10 minutes so maybe a bad circuit board ground?". In this 5-10 minutes do any of the other accessories like the windshield wipers and turn signals work? That would prove if the splice is being energized initially. I am assuming that initially the test light does not flash when the key is in IGN 1. I do not think it's a ground problem. If it were a ground problem the IVR would not be functioning in ACC. 6Pak - With the ignition switch hanging down under the dash, I was able to jiggle and push/pull the harness plug in the back of the switch and got the test light to flask in IGN-1 position. More evidence there is an internal short or something going on with the switch. Blinkers worked at all times. I see that the 1969 ignition switch is one year only and made of unobtainium. Classis Industries sells a reproduction switch made by Max Performance. Anyone have any experience with these?
1970 Superbird 440 Six BBL, 4-Speed, Dana, FJ5 1969 Daytona Charger 440 4-Speed, Dana, EV2 1971 340 Challenger Conv. Flemington Speedway Pace Car, FC7 1970 340 Six Pack Callenger T/A 4-speed T8 Tan 1971 340 Challenger RT Formal Roof, EV2 w/ V2 Stripe & Orange Houndstooth 1969 Talladega Torino, 428CJ 1969 Gurney Special Cyclone Spoiler II, 351 Cleveland
"Id rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy" Ben Franklin 1755
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Re: !969 Charger Gages Slow to Start Working - Help
[Re: RSI700VIPER]
#3084547
10/09/22 01:05 PM
10/09/22 01:05 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645 Phila. Pa.
Mattax
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Sounds like somehting is cross wired. According to the FSM the instrument cluster gages get power from wire G5 - which comes from the run terminal on the key switch. In other words, there should be no power to gages with key in accessory. Since there is also the starting issue, might be worth disconnecting the key switch and testing the continuity is correct in each position. Mattax, I traced the G5 wire (referred to as P4 18DBL* on 1969 Charger Wire diagram) and it goes to the brake warning lamp. See attached. Looks like the 12V dash feed comes from the Black Wire node splice, no? I'm so sorry. My mistake. I was looking at the Coronet diagram. Correct. G1 (Gage) is supplied from the splice in the accssory circuit. And you can confirm that by the wire colors you see on your car - since occassionbally there were mistakes in the diagram. Studying the wire diagram a bit further, I don't see how the Dash gets 12V from the IGN-1 key position unless IGN-1 grabs its 12V source from the ACC circuit inside the ignition switch. is that correct? Correct. According to the diagram, G1 gets power when the key is in either Run or Accessory. Powering the gages with the key in accessory seems a little odd to me, but that's what the diagram is showing.
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Re: !969 Charger Gages Slow to Start Working - Help
[Re: RSI700VIPER]
#3084552
10/09/22 01:18 PM
10/09/22 01:18 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645 Phila. Pa.
Mattax
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Ignition switch is apparently part of the problem. No voltage passing through the IGN 2 lug on the switch (Brown wire to ballast) so I need to replace that. [/quote] IGN 2 terminal is only powered with key in Start. I also hooked up a test tight to the temp sensor lead at the front of the block. When turning the key to ACC, the test light flashes but it doesn't when the key is switched to IGN 1. That would indicate the IVR is working. At least its working in the sense that when current flows through, the bimetal heats up and opens the circuit briefly. When you did that the temperature gage should have moved. My guess is the test lamp has low resistance - like 1 ohm. if so the gage should have pegged hot. Going from memory, 10 or 12 ohm resistor would be the equivalent of hot, Something around 23 ohms is midway, and 70ish ohms should just move the needle to first mark. If you're testing for any length of time, at least have 10 ohm resistor. This will protect the heating wire in the gage.
Last edited by Mattax; 10/09/22 01:19 PM.
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Re: !969 Charger Gages Slow to Start Working - Help
[Re: 6PakBee]
#3084554
10/09/22 01:32 PM
10/09/22 01:32 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645 Phila. Pa.
Mattax
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Studying the wire diagram a bit further, I don't see how the Dash gets 12V from the IGN-1 key position unless IGN-1 grabs its 12V source from the ACC circuit inside the ignition switch. is that correct? ... I find it interesting that you said "When turning the key to ACC, the test light flashes but it doesn't when the key is switched to IGN 1. Looking under the dash, everything appears to be stock and in its proper place with no apparent splices. The IGN1 circuit to the dash eventually starts working after 5-10 minutes so maybe a bad circuit board ground?". In this 5-10 minutes do any of the other accessories like the windshield wipers and turn signals work? That would prove if the splice is being energized initially. I am assuming that initially the test light does not flash when the key is in IGN 1. I do not think it's a ground problem. If it were a ground problem the IVR would not be functioning in ACC. I agree. Ignition 1 is the Run circuit. It powers circuits to keep the car running. Generally that's the ignition coil, the alternator's rotor (field circuit), and the gages (although not in this case). Accessory is generally all of the other circuits that require key; wipers (circuit breaker), heater (fused), reverse lights, turn signals, radio. Key switch continuity generally is as follows: Key off: J1 (BAT) has no connection to anything. Key Start. BAT terminal connects to IGN 2, and Start. Key Run. BAT terminal connects to IGN 1 and Acc. Key Acc. BAT terminal Connects to Acc. I know with A-bodies 1969 had a one year only switch, but as far as we can tell the terminal positions and function were the same. This is probably a good case to verify the drawing with what you see on the car.
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Re: !969 Charger Gages Slow to Start Working - Help
[Re: RSI700VIPER]
#3084575
10/09/22 03:05 PM
10/09/22 03:05 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,720 North Dakota
6PakBee
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6Pak - With the ignition switch hanging down under the dash, I was able to jiggle and push/pull the harness plug in the back of the switch and got the test light to flask in IGN-1 position. More evidence there is an internal short or something going on with the switch. Blinkers worked at all times. I see that the 1969 ignition switch is one year only and made of unobtainium. Classis Industries sells a reproduction switch made by Max Performance. Anyone have any experience with these? There is something odd here. The turn signals are fed with wire D1-18BK from the master splice. The IVR for the gauges is also fed from this master splice on wire G1-18BK. How can one work initially without the other? The gauge issue seems to be changing to an instrument cluster problem. I would once more recommend checking the voltage at the temperature sensor immediately when the gauges are not working. If your test light doesn't flash, I'm going to put my money on the IVR. How do the wipers respond initially?
"We live in a time when intelligent people are being silenced so that stupid people won't be offended".
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Re: !969 Charger Gages Slow to Start Working - Help
[Re: 6PakBee]
#3084606
10/09/22 06:08 PM
10/09/22 06:08 PM
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,149 NW New Jersey
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6Pak - With the ignition switch hanging down under the dash, I was able to jiggle and push/pull the harness plug in the back of the switch and got the test light to flask in IGN-1 position. More evidence there is an internal short or something going on with the switch. Blinkers worked at all times. I see that the 1969 ignition switch is one year only and made of unobtainium. Classis Industries sells a reproduction switch made by Max Performance. Anyone have any experience with these? There is something odd here. The turn signals are fed with wire D1-18BK from the master splice. The IVR for the gauges is also fed from this master splice on wire G1-18BK. How can one work initially without the other? The gauge issue seems to be changing to an instrument cluster problem. I would once more recommend checking the voltage at the temperature sensor immediately when the gauges are not working. If your test light doesn't flash, I'm going to put my money on the IVR. How do the wipers respond initially? So I went back and double checked. You are correct. The blinkers work with key in IGN-1 position ONLY when I jiggle the ignition switch/harness plug. The blinkers work at the same time I get the temp gauge working in IGN-1 position and they both stop working together. I've yet to check the wipers.
1970 Superbird 440 Six BBL, 4-Speed, Dana, FJ5 1969 Daytona Charger 440 4-Speed, Dana, EV2 1971 340 Challenger Conv. Flemington Speedway Pace Car, FC7 1970 340 Six Pack Callenger T/A 4-speed T8 Tan 1971 340 Challenger RT Formal Roof, EV2 w/ V2 Stripe & Orange Houndstooth 1969 Talladega Torino, 428CJ 1969 Gurney Special Cyclone Spoiler II, 351 Cleveland
"Id rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy" Ben Franklin 1755
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Re: !969 Charger Gages Slow to Start Working - Help
[Re: RSI700VIPER]
#3084658
10/09/22 09:00 PM
10/09/22 09:00 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,720 North Dakota
6PakBee
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Ah ha!!! It sounds like you have isolated it to the switch. It still seems odd that initially it won't work but after a number of minutes it will. I am struggling with what can cause that. But as Thoreau put it regarding a trout in the milk, what you have is what you have. Good job!
"We live in a time when intelligent people are being silenced so that stupid people won't be offended".
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Re: !969 Charger Gages Slow to Start Working - Help
[Re: 6PakBee]
#3084677
10/09/22 10:32 PM
10/09/22 10:32 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,372 Omaha Ne
TJP
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Ah ha!!! It sounds like you have isolated it to the switch. It still seems odd that initially it won't work but after a number of minutes it will. I am struggling with what can cause that. But as Thoreau put it regarding a trout in the milk, what you have is what you have. Good job! Could also be a bad crimp/connection As for the warm up time, excessive resistance, again switch or connection. I would first inspect that terminal and crimp very thoroughly, post a pic if you'd like if it is in fact the switch, the Contacts inside the switch may need cleaning, which can only be done by disamrling it or using a contact cleaner Like Deoxit. It will be hard to get inside unless one drills a small hole or soaks it. It helps to actuate the switch multiple times while the cleaner is inside. If soaking I would do so in a closed container O/nite then set it in the sun or a warm environment to allow the solvents to evaporate before using it as i believe they are flammable. It's possible the switch is worn beyond use. But I, again would inspect that terminal first What is still puzzling is the car will run but the gauges etc. are flakey. Do they not both feed off IGN 1 ? Also no V to the coil from Ign 2 in the start position but the starter relay engages? Are they also both not fed from the same terminal?
Last edited by TJP; 10/09/22 10:40 PM.
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Re: !969 Charger Gages Slow to Start Working - Help
[Re: TJP]
#3084729
10/10/22 07:59 AM
10/10/22 07:59 AM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645 Phila. Pa.
Mattax
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Those are definately possibilities. I'd go with a trust but verify approach. 1. Remove the connector from the key switch. Check continuity from B to the other terminals with key in every position. Using resistance setting on the multimeter would be best. 2a. Check for continuityand wire colors between the connector cavity that matches I1 and the G1 wire terminal at the board. 2b Check for continuity and wire colors between the connector cavity that matches A and the G1 wire terminal at the board.
Once the wiring is sorted out, that shoudl take of the starting issue and hopefully also the gages. But if the gages still have an issue, even though the other 'accessory' are working immediately, then its probably a connection on the board. This is an instance where the voltage can read OK during testing, but doesn't reveal resistance. The resistance only shows up as a voltage loss whith sufficient current flowing through, This can happen with the main feed as well, in particular with the 'MAD' approach. The battery is first in line from the alternator output. That could make the battery the path of least resistance back to the alternator's ground. If the distance and resistance to the rest of the circuits is long enough, high enough, then they don't get the full power until the battery is recharged. I don't think that's what's happening here. The switch or its connections seem to be the culprit, or at least the main culprit.
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Re: !969 Charger Gages Slow to Start Working - Help
[Re: Mattax]
#3084817
10/10/22 01:04 PM
10/10/22 01:04 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,372 Omaha Ne
TJP
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Those are definately possibilities. I'd go with a trust but verify approach. 1. Remove the connector from the key switch. Check continuity from B to the other terminals with key in every position. Using resistance setting on the multimeter would be best. 2a. Check for continuityand wire colors between the connector cavity that matches I1 and the G1 wire terminal at the board. 2b Check for continuity and wire colors between the connector cavity that matches A and the G1 wire terminal at the board.
Once the wiring is sorted out, that shoudl take of the starting issue and hopefully also the gages. But if the gages still have an issue, even though the other 'accessory' are working immediately, then its probably a connection on the board. This is an instance where the voltage can read OK during testing, but doesn't reveal resistance. The resistance only shows up as a voltage loss whith sufficient current flowing through, This can happen with the main feed as well, in particular with the 'MAD' approach. The battery is first in line from the alternator output. That could make the battery the path of least resistance back to the alternator's ground. If the distance and resistance to the rest of the circuits is long enough, high enough, then they don't get the full power until the battery is recharged. I don't think that's what's happening here. The switch or its connections seem to be the culprit, or at least the main culprit. Agreed on the continuity / resistance tests, but want to make the OP aware that one can show little to no resistance with a meter and NO LOAD on the circuit / dervice. But it may not be able to pass enough current through the switch /terminal/wire for the load, which would then cause a voltage drop due to the resistance. Aren't electrical problems FUN ???
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Re: !969 Charger Gages Slow to Start Working - Help
[Re: TJP]
#3084862
10/10/22 02:46 PM
10/10/22 02:46 PM
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,149 NW New Jersey
RSI700VIPER
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Ah ha!!! It sounds like you have isolated it to the switch. It still seems odd that initially it won't work but after a number of minutes it will. I am struggling with what can cause that. But as Thoreau put it regarding a trout in the milk, what you have is what you have. Good job! Could also be a bad crimp/connection As for the warm up time, excessive resistance, again switch or connection. I would first inspect that terminal and crimp very thoroughly, post a pic if you'd like if it is in fact the switch, the Contacts inside the switch may need cleaning, which can only be done by disamrling it or using a contact cleaner Like Deoxit. It will be hard to get inside unless one drills a small hole or soaks it. It helps to actuate the switch multiple times while the cleaner is inside. If soaking I would do so in a closed container O/nite then set it in the sun or a warm environment to allow the solvents to evaporate before using it as i believe they are flammable. It's possible the switch is worn beyond use. But I, again would inspect that terminal first What is still puzzling is the car will run but the gauges etc. are flakey. Do they not both feed off IGN 1 ? Also no V to the coil from Ign 2 in the start position but the starter relay engages? Are they also both not fed from the same terminal? TPJ - Good input but at this point, I'm going to replace the switch. It's 53 years old and don't want to risk a short while driving.
1970 Superbird 440 Six BBL, 4-Speed, Dana, FJ5 1969 Daytona Charger 440 4-Speed, Dana, EV2 1971 340 Challenger Conv. Flemington Speedway Pace Car, FC7 1970 340 Six Pack Callenger T/A 4-speed T8 Tan 1971 340 Challenger RT Formal Roof, EV2 w/ V2 Stripe & Orange Houndstooth 1969 Talladega Torino, 428CJ 1969 Gurney Special Cyclone Spoiler II, 351 Cleveland
"Id rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy" Ben Franklin 1755
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Re: !969 Charger Gages Slow to Start Working - Help
[Re: Mattax]
#3084867
10/10/22 02:49 PM
10/10/22 02:49 PM
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,149 NW New Jersey
RSI700VIPER
OP
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Those are definately possibilities. I'd go with a trust but verify approach. 1. Remove the connector from the key switch. Check continuity from B to the other terminals with key in every position. Using resistance setting on the multimeter would be best. 2a. Check for continuityand wire colors between the connector cavity that matches I1 and the G1 wire terminal at the board. 2b Check for continuity and wire colors between the connector cavity that matches A and the G1 wire terminal at the board.
Once the wiring is sorted out, that shoudl take of the starting issue and hopefully also the gages. But if the gages still have an issue, even though the other 'accessory' are working immediately, then its probably a connection on the board. This is an instance where the voltage can read OK during testing, but doesn't reveal resistance. The resistance only shows up as a voltage loss whith sufficient current flowing through, This can happen with the main feed as well, in particular with the 'MAD' approach. The battery is first in line from the alternator output. That could make the battery the path of least resistance back to the alternator's ground. If the distance and resistance to the rest of the circuits is long enough, high enough, then they don't get the full power until the battery is recharged. I don't think that's what's happening here. The switch or its connections seem to be the culprit, or at least the main culprit. I'm getting fluctuating OHM readings in the IGN-1 position. I'm also getting fluctuating readings in the IGN-2 position as well. Switch has been ordered.
1970 Superbird 440 Six BBL, 4-Speed, Dana, FJ5 1969 Daytona Charger 440 4-Speed, Dana, EV2 1971 340 Challenger Conv. Flemington Speedway Pace Car, FC7 1970 340 Six Pack Callenger T/A 4-speed T8 Tan 1971 340 Challenger RT Formal Roof, EV2 w/ V2 Stripe & Orange Houndstooth 1969 Talladega Torino, 428CJ 1969 Gurney Special Cyclone Spoiler II, 351 Cleveland
"Id rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy" Ben Franklin 1755
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Re: !969 Charger Gages Slow to Start Working - Help
[Re: TJP]
#3084918
10/10/22 05:43 PM
10/10/22 05:43 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645 Phila. Pa.
Mattax
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Agreed on the continuity / resistance tests, but want to make the OP aware that one can show little to no resistance with a meter and NO LOAD on the circuit / dervice. But it may not be able to pass enough current through the switch /terminal/wire for the load, which would then cause a voltage drop due to the resistance.
Absolutely. Its always a balance between enough info to get to the next step or two, and too much info and it becomes unreadble or just overwhelming.. I figured the main objective was looking for the continuity results, and secondary was looking for large (by which I mean measurable) resistances. I still don't fully trust the wiring diagram. Having the gages working while the key is in accessory is an outlier. As far as I know the main use of acc position was/is to listen to the radio without burning fuel, and without cooking the coil.
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