Another pinion angle question...
#2966889
09/24/21 01:34 AM
09/24/21 01:34 AM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,168 Vancouver, WA
MoparMarq
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,168
Vancouver, WA
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Hi guys and gals, Been a while since I've been on here. Did a search and found a few answers, but a question lingers about what's an acceptable angle between differential pinion and trans output shaft for a cruiser. RR has a TK500 swap. With the driveshaft perfectly level (0 angle, weight-on-wheels), the trans output shaft is 2.9 degrees tail down. The trans is as high in the tunnel as I can get it. And the nose of the differential pinion shaft centerline is 0.9 degrees down toward the front. Therefore total angle is 3.6 degrees. The car is cruiser; will never see track or strip time. Haven't driven it yet, as other issues arose. Should I be looking for some 2 degree shims to put under the perches to bring the nose on the diff up a bit? 2 degrees would get the nose of the diff up and bring the centerlines of the trans and diff closer to, but of course not, parallel (around 1.6 degrees). What's an allowable difference to have for a street driver? Also, along the lines of shims, what manufacturers shims will work under the factory perches with MP XHD (factory, basically) springs? Summit shows Pro-Comp 99-400B, Calvert CLV-4-DEGREE, Beltech BEL-4977 , and Rubicon Re1466 shim sets. Is there one of those sets that works best with Mopar springs and perches? Thanks for any knowledge you can impart. -Marq
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Re: Another pinion angle question...
[Re: MoparMarq]
#2966958
09/24/21 10:04 AM
09/24/21 10:04 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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If needed there are some excellent utube vids on this. EDIT and in our tech archives. As you know you want them to be "fairly" close to parallel but in different planes. I read once that a .5 difference is real good but I dont remember if that was street DD or race
Last edited by RapidRobert; 09/24/21 10:07 AM.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Another pinion angle question...
[Re: MoparMarq]
#2967007
09/24/21 12:25 PM
09/24/21 12:25 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,722 Moved to N.E. Tennessee
GomangoCuda
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,722
Moved to N.E. Tennessee
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I suspect that before long you will be either cutting the tunnel of your RR or selling that transmission. This is more of a transmission angle problem than pinion angle. I suggest you add TKO swap to your Title so that the experts on this swap will be here shortly.
Last edited by GomangoCuda; 09/24/21 12:28 PM.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.
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Re: Another pinion angle question...
[Re: GomangoCuda]
#2967019
09/24/21 12:53 PM
09/24/21 12:53 PM
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,861 Pattison Texas
CSK
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,861
Pattison Texas
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2.9 down on trans is normal, set the pinion 1.5 to 2 up for a street car
1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI 512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim 2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5
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Re: Another pinion angle question...
[Re: GomangoCuda]
#2967029
09/24/21 01:05 PM
09/24/21 01:05 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,937 GA
roadrunninMark
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,937
GA
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Your tail shaft angle of 2.9 degrees is good, no need to cut the tunnel or try to raise it. The problem is you pinion shaft angle of .9 degrees down. With this current configuration, the driveshaft has a "speed up , slow down" phase. It gets worse the more the suspension compresses. A link below will show you what I mean. What you want is to get the pinion angle to mirror the tail shaft angle, but in the opposite direction. So you will want to get the pinion to be 2.9 degrees up. There are shims you can buy to angle up your pinion, these get placed between the leaf spring mounts and the mount on the axle tubes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Idk3BVDVHq4Pinion angle shims... https://www.summitracing.com/search...rder=Ascending&keyword=angle%20shims
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Re: Another pinion angle question...
[Re: roadrunninMark]
#2967030
09/24/21 01:09 PM
09/24/21 01:09 PM
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,368 Iowa
burdar
Owen's Dad
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Owen's Dad
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,368
Iowa
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So you will want to get the pinion to be 2.9 degrees up. That 2.9 degree up should be while accelerating right? Not at rest since the pinion will rise as you give it gas? So you'll want it slightly less then 2.9 up at rest?
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Re: Another pinion angle question...
[Re: MoparMarq]
#2967032
09/24/21 01:23 PM
09/24/21 01:23 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157 Mass
DAYCLONA
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
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Hi guys and gals, Been a while since I've been on here. Did a search and found a few answers, but a question lingers about what's an acceptable angle between differential pinion and trans output shaft for a cruiser. RR has a TK500 swap. With the driveshaft perfectly level (0 angle, weight-on-wheels), the trans output shaft is 2.9 degrees tail down. The trans is as high in the tunnel as I can get it. And the nose of the differential pinion shaft centerline is 0.9 degrees down toward the front. Therefore total angle is 3.6 degrees. The car is cruiser; will never see track or strip time. Haven't driven it yet, as other issues arose. Should I be looking for some 2 degree shims to put under the perches to bring the nose on the diff up a bit? 2 degrees would get the nose of the diff up and bring the centerlines of the trans and diff closer to, but of course not, parallel (around 1.6 degrees). What's an allowable difference to have for a street driver? Also, along the lines of shims, what manufacturers shims will work under the factory perches with MP XHD (factory, basically) springs? Summit shows Pro-Comp 99-400B, Calvert CLV-4-DEGREE, Beltech BEL-4977 , and Rubicon Re1466 shim sets. Is there one of those sets that works best with Mopar springs and perches? Thanks for any knowledge you can impart. -Marq The desire is for the tranny angle downward (3 degrees max) and the pinion angle upwards with both being on fairly parallel planes of each other and the driveshaft having a 1 degree minimum to 3 degree maximum defection measured at each joint UNDER ACCELERATION not in static mode on a leaf sprung vehicle, keep in mind the pinion can/will rotate upwards of up to 5 degrees UNDER ACCELERATION there are lots of variables that determine how much it will rotate upwards, that being said I think your current angles are a fine starting point, drive the car, see if any driveline vibration is present in acceleration or de-acceleration mode, then shim if necessary to fine tune your driveline angle due to possible driveline vibration.... chances are you'll be raising the pinion nose 1 or 2 degrees, but hold off until you've driven it My 70 Charger with a TKO600 has a 2 degree down on the tranny and had a 1.5 degree nose down on the DANA 60 pinion in "stock" configuration, I added a 2 degree shim to raise the pinion nose upward, but these are the parameters on MY car due to suspension mods/ride height, each vehicle will have it's own variables based on ride height, and types of suspension/axle mods, etc, etc FYI....when troubleshooting any driveline angle induced vibration, raise the pinion nose for UNDER ACCELERATION vibration and lower the nose for DE-ACCELRATION vibration....I would do so 1 degree at a time....as for a mfg recommendation on shims if needed, I used the Mopar Performance shims, no mods/zero issues, just keep an eye on the alignment leaf pin that you have plenty to align/engage the axle perch hole properly when adding a shim.... MikeG
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Re: Another pinion angle question...
[Re: burdar]
#2967072
09/24/21 03:55 PM
09/24/21 03:55 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,937 GA
roadrunninMark
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,937
GA
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So you will want to get the pinion to be 2.9 degrees up. That 2.9 degree up should be while accelerating right? Not at rest since the pinion will rise as you give it gas? So you'll want it slightly less then 2.9 up at rest? Yes, that would be the ideal point. As Dayclona said, may be 1 degree different at rest vs. acceleration; so about 2 degrees up on pinion at rest. Remember, as acceleration increases, the "G" forces and suspension loading slowly decrease close to "at rest". The initial movement of the suspension is greatest at the beginning point of acceleration/ "G" force . Just a small amount of difference at rest will get you close to where you need to be. If you can find out what the factory used for pinion up degrees and tai lshaft down degrees, I would start with that and makes adjustments if needed
Last edited by roadrunninMark; 09/24/21 04:36 PM.
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Re: Another pinion angle question...
[Re: MoparMarq]
#2967093
09/24/21 05:14 PM
09/24/21 05:14 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,190 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,190
Bend,OR USA
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I look for 2 to 5 degrees nose down differences on the pinion shaft and the driveshaft, done that since attending one of the old Mopar drag racing seminars back in 1978 or so. More angle is needed on stick shift drag cars than automatic drag cars according to them As far as the front U joint and differences between the tranny output shaft and the driveshaft angles if you have 1.0 degrees differences or more on any plane your good , that angle will make the needle bearings rotate in the front U joint and not gall up from no rotation
Last edited by Cab_Burge; 09/24/21 05:16 PM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Another pinion angle question...
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2968182
09/28/21 02:58 PM
09/28/21 02:58 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,168 Vancouver, WA
MoparMarq
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,168
Vancouver, WA
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Thanks for the input guys. Ordered a pair of 3 degree 2.5" wide shims from Summit. In theory, the 2.9 degrees down at the trans should pair fairly well with the (new) 2.3 degrees up at the diff. The XHD springs (6 leaves right, 7 left) and my old f--t driving style should minimize the spring wrap-up. Time will tell...
As an aside, I forgot how helpful the folks on here are, and how civilized and mature the behavior is. It's a breath of fresh air compared to much of the behavior I witness on the Supra forum.
Edit: Sorry, got that backwards and rechecked. It is 6 leaves left and 7 on the right.
Last edited by MoparMarq; 09/28/21 06:32 PM.
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Re: Another pinion angle question...
[Re: MoparMarq]
#2968209
09/28/21 05:00 PM
09/28/21 05:00 PM
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,076 Michigan
A727Tflite
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,076
Michigan
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Thanks for the input guys. Ordered a pair of 3 degree 2.5" wide shims from Summit. In theory, the 2.9 degrees down at the trans should pair fairly well with the (new) 2.3 degrees up at the diff. The XHD springs (6 leaves right, 7 left) and my old f--t driving style should minimize the spring wrap-up. Time will tell...
As an aside, I forgot how helpful the folks on here are, and how civilized and mature the behavior is. It's a breath of fresh air compared to much of the behavior I witness on the Supra forum. Let us know how those angles work for you. Double check those springs - I don’t recall ever seeing more leafs on the driver side. The spring with the most leafs in the front half goes on the passenger side.
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Re: Another pinion angle question...
[Re: A727Tflite]
#2968645
09/29/21 11:13 PM
09/29/21 11:13 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,908 Nebraska
4406bbl
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,908
Nebraska
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Thanks for the input guys. Ordered a pair of 3 degree 2.5" wide shims from Summit. In theory, the 2.9 degrees down at the trans should pair fairly well with the (new) 2.3 degrees up at the diff. The XHD springs (6 leaves right, 7 left) and my old f--t driving style should minimize the spring wrap-up. Time will tell...
As an aside, I forgot how helpful the folks on here are, and how civilized and mature the behavior is. It's a breath of fresh air compared to much of the behavior I witness on the Supra forum. Let us know how those angles work for you. Double check those springs - I don’t recall ever seeing more leafs on the driver side. The spring with the most leafs in the front half goes on the passenger side. Agree here, the e-bodies had 6 on both sides, a shorter 2nd leaf on the drivers side and for some weird reason the bottom leaf faced forward on the right, rearward on the left spring. Make sure the spring with the second leaf going all the way to the spring eye is on the right. The new mopar springs are this way, others may vary. Your new angle should be good.
Last edited by 4406bbl; 09/29/21 11:14 PM.
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