Re: Vibratory tumbler
[Re: NITROUSN]
#2931195
06/08/21 09:56 AM
06/08/21 09:56 AM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696 Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
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I don't get what the weight does or has on these tumblers. The one I have the basket is oscillated on rubber cushions. All the motor does is spinning an offset weight to make the basket oscillate. The motor is on its own and knows nothing about the weight in the basket. My thinking, there are a few constants and a few variables in a "typical" vibrator system. The motor (excitor) hp and speed is fixed, the weight of the container is fixed, the imbalance weight and geometry is fixed, and the suspension/damping system is fixed. A;ll these constants determine a fixed oscillation resonance frequency of the unit. The variables are the weight ( I suspect size here doesn't matter much here) of the item(s) being processed, the weight of the media, the weight and viscosity of any process lubricant, and time. Combined Weight directly effects the frequency of the process, heavier being a lower frequency (meaning weight matters, how much is dependent mainly on available hp to overcome the above factors), based on the factors noted above. Condition, shape, etc of the parts being processed and the media and its size would be the last considerations. Did I miss anything? Reminds of car tuning, everything effects everything else.
Last edited by jcc; 06/08/21 09:57 AM.
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: Vibratory tumbler
[Re: jcc]
#2931215
06/08/21 10:47 AM
06/08/21 10:47 AM
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,652 Stuttgart, Arkansas
rickseeman
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,652
Stuttgart, Arkansas
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I don't get what the weight does or has on these tumblers. The one I have the basket is oscillated on rubber cushions. All the motor does is spinning an offset weight to make the basket oscillate. The motor is on its own and knows nothing about the weight in the basket. My thinking, there are a few constants and a few variables in a "typical" vibrator system. The motor (excitor) hp and speed is fixed, the weight of the container is fixed, the imbalance weight and geometry is fixed, and the suspension/damping system is fixed. A;ll these constants determine a fixed oscillation resonance frequency of the unit. The variables are the weight ( I suspect size here doesn't matter much here) of the item(s) being processed, the weight of the media, the weight and viscosity of any process lubricant, and time. Combined Weight directly effects the frequency of the process, heavier being a lower frequency (meaning weight matters, how much is dependent mainly on available hp to overcome the above factors), based on the factors noted above. Condition, shape, etc of the parts being processed and the media and its size would be the last considerations. Did I miss anything? Reminds of car tuning, everything effects everything else. The only thing that you normally adjust is the amount of weights on the motor. If you are using steel media at 300 lbs per cubic foot you will have to have more weights on the motor than if you were using ceramic media at 85 lbs per cu ft.
2011 Drag Pak Challenger
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Re: Vibratory tumbler
[Re: jcc]
#2931295
06/08/21 02:17 PM
06/08/21 02:17 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,735 North Dakota
6PakBee
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,735
North Dakota
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I don't get what the weight does or has on these tumblers. The one I have the basket is oscillated on rubber cushions. All the motor does is spinning an offset weight to make the basket oscillate. The motor is on its own and knows nothing about the weight in the basket. My thinking, there are a few constants and a few variables in a "typical" vibrator system. The motor (excitor) hp and speed is fixed, the weight of the container is fixed, the imbalance weight and geometry is fixed, and the suspension/damping system is fixed. A;ll these constants determine a fixed oscillation resonance frequency of the unit. The variables are the weight ( I suspect size here doesn't matter much here) of the item(s) being processed, the weight of the media, the weight and viscosity of any process lubricant, and time. Combined Weight directly effects the frequency of the process, heavier being a lower frequency (meaning weight matters, how much is dependent mainly on available hp to overcome the above factors), based on the factors noted above. Condition, shape, etc of the parts being processed and the media and its size would be the last considerations. Did I miss anything? Reminds of car tuning, everything effects everything else. I don't think that changes in weight will affect frequency as that is a function of motor/drive speed. But I do think that more mass means more inertia. For a given amount of energy being supplied to the "tub" by the drive, as mass (and inertia) increases the less the tub will move with each cycle with the corresponding reduction in cleaning peformance. So....as the mass (inertia) increases you have to supply more energy and you do that with more offset weight.
"We live in a time when intelligent people are being silenced so that stupid people won't be offended".
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Re: Vibratory tumbler
[Re: 6PakBee]
#2931298
06/08/21 02:26 PM
06/08/21 02:26 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,419 Kalispell Mt.
HotRodDave
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,419
Kalispell Mt.
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I don't get what the weight does or has on these tumblers. The one I have the basket is oscillated on rubber cushions. All the motor does is spinning an offset weight to make the basket oscillate. The motor is on its own and knows nothing about the weight in the basket. My thinking, there are a few constants and a few variables in a "typical" vibrator system. The motor (excitor) hp and speed is fixed, the weight of the container is fixed, the imbalance weight and geometry is fixed, and the suspension/damping system is fixed. A;ll these constants determine a fixed oscillation resonance frequency of the unit. The variables are the weight ( I suspect size here doesn't matter much here) of the item(s) being processed, the weight of the media, the weight and viscosity of any process lubricant, and time. Combined Weight directly effects the frequency of the process, heavier being a lower frequency (meaning weight matters, how much is dependent mainly on available hp to overcome the above factors), based on the factors noted above. Condition, shape, etc of the parts being processed and the media and its size would be the last considerations. Did I miss anything? Reminds of car tuning, everything effects everything else. I don't think that changes in weight will affect frequency as that is a function of motor/drive speed. But I do think that more mass means more inertia. For a given amount of energy being supplied to the "tub" by the drive, as mass (and inertia) increases the less the tub will move with each cycle with the corresponding reduction in cleaning peformance. So....as the mass (inertia) increases you have to supply more energy and you do that with more offset weight. I didn't put the BBs in for weight, they just bounce all around gently removing rust and dirt. I could throw all my transmission bolts and small parts and such in and an hour later they would all be clean and rust free it they weren't too bad, in the mean time I could re-build clutch packs and stuff and all the little things would be ready to start putting it back together when I am done with the other parts.
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
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Re: Vibratory tumbler
[Re: HotRodDave]
#2931324
06/08/21 03:28 PM
06/08/21 03:28 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,791 Hamilton, Ontario Canada
Magnum
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,791
Hamilton, Ontario Canada
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Eastwood was another relatively cheap one with many bad reviews. I guess what interested me in this tool is the price of the cheap ones. If a good one is over $1000. I will continue to sand blast and brush my parts. Mostly bolts and brackets.
69 Super Bee, 93 Mustang LX, 04 Allure Super
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Re: Vibratory tumbler
[Re: 6PakBee]
#2931329
06/08/21 03:36 PM
06/08/21 03:36 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,424 UPPER MICHIGAN, MARQUETTE COUN...
NITROUSN
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,424
UPPER MICHIGAN, MARQUETTE COUN...
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I don't think that changes in weight will affect frequency as that is a function of motor/drive speed. But I do think that more mass means more inertia. For a given amount of energy being supplied to the "tub" by the drive, as mass (and inertia) increases the less the tub will move with each cycle with the corresponding reduction in cleaning peformance.
So....as the mass (inertia) increases you have to supply more energy and you do that with more offset weight.
I can understand how moving or adding weight would make the motor work harder. However on mine you are changing nothing to make the motor work harder. It just spins and causes the bowl to jiggle.
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Re: Vibratory tumbler
[Re: 6PakBee]
#2931491
06/08/21 10:45 PM
06/08/21 10:45 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696 Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
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I don't get what the weight does or has on these tumblers. The one I have the basket is oscillated on rubber cushions. All the motor does is spinning an offset weight to make the basket oscillate. The motor is on its own and knows nothing about the weight in the basket. My thinking, there are a few constants and a few variables in a "typical" vibrator system. The motor (excitor) hp and speed is fixed, the weight of the container is fixed, the imbalance weight and geometry is fixed, and the suspension/damping system is fixed. A;ll these constants determine a fixed oscillation resonance frequency of the unit. The variables are the weight ( I suspect size here doesn't matter much here) of the item(s) being processed, the weight of the media, the weight and viscosity of any process lubricant, and time. Combined Weight directly effects the frequency of the process, heavier being a lower frequency (meaning weight matters, how much is dependent mainly on available hp to overcome the above factors), based on the factors noted above. Condition, shape, etc of the parts being processed and the media and its size would be the last considerations. Did I miss anything? Reminds of car tuning, everything effects everything else. I don't think that changes in weight will affect frequency as that is a function of motor/drive speed. But I do think that more mass means more inertia. For a given amount of energy being supplied to the "tub" by the drive, as mass (and inertia) increases the less the tub will move with each cycle with the corresponding reduction in cleaning peformance. So....as the mass (inertia) increases you have to supply more energy and you do that with more offset weight. The main thing I think you are overlooking above is these systems are not free weights, ie no friction, no dampening. They are sprung in one fashion or another, and as the weight/load increases, in most cases the damping/rates will increase, and start to burden the system if the motor becomes further loaded. Another aspect I did not address earlier, is the heavier the media, the greater gravity/compressive force it transits onto the part being processed, and I also did not mention there maybe and likely, 2nd order and higher harmonics at play in these systems, that might factor into the process. Trying to calculate and predict those in advance would require a lot more information and I suspect a lot of run time on a super computer, or just 10? minutes. of real world testing
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: Vibratory tumbler
[Re: jcc]
#2931496
06/08/21 11:08 PM
06/08/21 11:08 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,735 North Dakota
6PakBee
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,735
North Dakota
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I don't get what the weight does or has on these tumblers. The one I have the basket is oscillated on rubber cushions. All the motor does is spinning an offset weight to make the basket oscillate. The motor is on its own and knows nothing about the weight in the basket. My thinking, there are a few constants and a few variables in a "typical" vibrator system. The motor (excitor) hp and speed is fixed, the weight of the container is fixed, the imbalance weight and geometry is fixed, and the suspension/damping system is fixed. A;ll these constants determine a fixed oscillation resonance frequency of the unit. The variables are the weight ( I suspect size here doesn't matter much here) of the item(s) being processed, the weight of the media, the weight and viscosity of any process lubricant, and time. Combined Weight directly effects the frequency of the process, heavier being a lower frequency (meaning weight matters, how much is dependent mainly on available hp to overcome the above factors), based on the factors noted above. Condition, shape, etc of the parts being processed and the media and its size would be the last considerations. Did I miss anything? Reminds of car tuning, everything effects everything else. I don't think that changes in weight will affect frequency as that is a function of motor/drive speed. But I do think that more mass means more inertia. For a given amount of energy being supplied to the "tub" by the drive, as mass (and inertia) increases the less the tub will move with each cycle with the corresponding reduction in cleaning peformance. So....as the mass (inertia) increases you have to supply more energy and you do that with more offset weight. The main thing I think you are overlooking above is these systems are not free weights, ie no friction, no dampening. They are sprung in one fashion or another, and as the weight/load increases, in most cases the damping/rates will increase, and start to burden the system if the motor becomes further loaded. Another aspect I did not address earlier, is the heavier the media, the greater gravity/compressive force it transits onto the part being processed, and I also did not mention there maybe and likely, 2nd order and higher harmonics at play in these systems, that might factor into the process. Trying to calculate and predict those in advance would require a lot more information and I suspect a lot of run time on a super computer, or just 10? minutes. of real world testing With a cyclically applied force, inertia due to mass is dampening . Want to reduce vibration? Add mass. A simple analogy would be one person trying to rock a heavy car in neutral. Can't budge it, not enough energy. But a crowd of people trying to rock it.....success, more energy. Lighter car...less mass....fewer people needed.
"We live in a time when intelligent people are being silenced so that stupid people won't be offended".
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Re: Vibratory tumbler
[Re: 6PakBee]
#2931569
06/09/21 11:09 AM
06/09/21 11:09 AM
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,371 Iowa
burdar
Owen's Dad
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Owen's Dad
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,371
Iowa
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What did you use for the phosphate coating? Not familiar with the waxing process. Not sure what he uses but I've had good results with Black Oxide solution from Caswel Plating. It blackens the hardware but it doesn't protect it from rust. You need to seal the fasteners after they are darkened. I've used RPM from ECS but lately I've been using Johnson's Paste wax. Heat the part with a heat gun or torch and brush on the wax. I have a Harbor Freight tumbler. I think they say you're supposed to use them "dry" but I didn't have good luck with it "dry". I like to use it with a little EvapoRust or a degreaser. With heavily rusted fasteners, the tumbler + EvapoRust seems to get the job done quicker then just dipping them in EvapoRust. With small grimy fasteners, sometimes it can be easier to tumble them with the degreaser instead of trying to clean them individually. Make sure you keep an eye on the tumbler though. My Harbor Freight tumblers motor locked up once. If I hadn't caught it, things might have gone bad. I was able to free it up so now I only use it when I'm out in the garage and can keep an eye on it.
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Re: Vibratory tumbler
[Re: Magnum]
#2931594
06/09/21 12:19 PM
06/09/21 12:19 PM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 3,080 N.W. Florida
Fat_Mike
master
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master
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 3,080
N.W. Florida
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Eastwood was another relatively cheap one with many bad reviews. I guess what interested me in this tool is the price of the cheap ones. If a good one is over $1000. I will continue to sand blast and brush my parts. Mostly bolts and brackets. You got sound advice within the first response (340SIX); Lyman of RCBS. Look at the reviews of the Lyman Pro 1200.
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Re: Vibratory tumbler
[Re: 6PakBee]
#2931628
06/09/21 01:41 PM
06/09/21 01:41 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696 Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
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[quote=NITROUSN]I don't get what the weight does or has on these tumblers. The one I have the basket is oscillated on rubber cushions. All the motor does is spinning an offset weight to make the basket oscillate. The motor is on its own and knows nothing about the weight in the basket. My thinking, there are a few constants and a few variables in a "typical" vibrator system. The motor (excitor) hp and speed is fixed, the weight of the container is fixed, the imbalance weight and geometry is fixed, and the suspension/damping system is fixed. A;ll these constants determine a fixed oscillation resonance frequency of the unit. The variables are the weight ( I suspect size here doesn't matter much here) of the item(s) being processed, the weight of the media, the weight and viscosity of any process lubricant, and time. Combined Weight directly effects the frequency of the process, heavier being a lower frequency (meaning weight matters, how much is dependent mainly on available hp to overcome the above factors), based on the factors noted above. Condition, shape, etc of the parts being processed and the media and its size would be the last considerations. Did I miss anything? Reminds of car tuning, everything effects everything else. I don't think that changes in weight will affect frequency as that is a function of motor/drive speed. But I do think that more mass means more inertia. For a given amount of energy being supplied to the "tub" by the drive, as mass (and inertia) increases the less the tub will move with each cycle with the corresponding reduction in cleaning peformance. So....as the mass (inertia) increases you have to supply more energy and you do that with more offset weight. The main thing I think you are overlooking above is these systems are not free weights, ie no friction, no dampening. They are sprung in one fashion or another, and as the weight/load increases, in most cases the damping/rates will increase, and start to burden the system if the motor becomes further loaded. Another aspect I did not address earlier, is the heavier the media, the greater gravity/compressive force it transits onto the part being processed, and I also did not mention there maybe and likely, 2nd order and higher harmonics at play in these systems, that might factor into the process. Trying to calculate and predict those in advance would require a lot more information and I suspect a lot of run time on a super computer, or just 10? minutes. of real world testing With a cyclically applied force, inertia due to mass is dampening . Want to reduce vibration? Add mass. A simple analogy would be one person trying to rock a heavy car in neutral. Can't budge it, not enough energy. But a crowd of people trying to rock it.....success, more energy. Lighter car...less mass....fewer people needed. I am seeing two opposing views here you are sharing, so to the main contention here, in simple terms, mass matters.
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: Vibratory tumbler
[Re: 360view]
#2932193
06/11/21 07:56 AM
06/11/21 07:56 AM
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,162 USA
360view
Moparts resident spammer
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Moparts resident spammer
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,162
USA
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ResonanceWith the simple Harbor Freight class of vibratory tumbler there is probably an “Optimum Shake Mass” where vibration stroke is highest because it is near resonant frequency. The input frequency is the speed of vibrator motor (assuming it drives one single crank weight) and needs to converted to units of Hertz, cycles per second. 3600 rpm is cycles per minute and should be converted to cycles per second so 3600/60 = 60 Hertz 1800 rpm would be 30 Hertz, etc Spring rate is calculated similar to engine valve spring rate measurement but needs to be in units of Newtons per Meter instead of LBS per inch. Be careful if you choose to use “American” style units of LBS because a “Pound” is a unit of Force, not a mass. You have to know when to divide Pounds by 32.2 feet per second per second, the acceleration of Gravity in the American units system to convert to the seldom heard of “Poundals” of mass for use in math equations. If you did not go to Engineering School prior to year 1980 you will probably make a mistake. Stick with kilograms, meters and seconds. Just as an example, Let us say the motor is 1800 rpm, (30 Hertz) The bowl and lid of the vibratory polisher weighs 250 grams. If you add 750 grams of parts to this 250 gram bowel, the springs beneath compress 2 mm. K the Spring Rate is (.250 KG + .750 KG) divided by ( 2/1000 meters) ( 1 KG divided by 0.002 meters) = 500 KG per Meter The simple Resonance equation is Omega = SQUARE ROOT [K/M ] 30 Hertz = SR [ 500/ M] 30 x 30 = 500/M 900 = 500 /M M = 500/900 Mass that creates resonance is 0.555 of a Kilogram This is the mass of the parts plus bowl Subtract the .250 KG mass of the bowl to find the mass of parts only 305 grams of the sum of media plus parts can be cleaned at maximum shake. The above numbers are just guesses for example of the math. Each vibratory cleaner spring rate, masses and true operating rpm of motor under load would have to be measured by its owner.
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Re: Vibratory tumbler
[Re: 360view]
#2932197
06/11/21 08:21 AM
06/11/21 08:21 AM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696 Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
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[Not disputing your above math/calculations, but the big variable in this application is the additional mass beyond the machine, which has been already been mentioned. It is a composite of liquid, media, parts being processed, and it is conformable and is free to move. I don't see how its resonate frequency contribution can be easily assessed and factored in. For those on the sidelines, the shortcoming of using mass only in the calculations might be similar to proclaiming equal mass amounts of glass and lead have same the resonant frequency.
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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