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Re: Lares Manual Steering Box [Re: TJP] #2924142 05/18/21 09:17 PM 05/18/21 09:17 PM
Joined: May 2005 Posts: 598 NC, USA D davenc OP mopar
davenc OP mopar D Joined: May 2005 Posts: 598 NC, USA	TJP, Thanks for the detailed steps. I had considered at one time trying to adjust the box in car, but from what I understood at the time was you had two adjustments to do (using rotational torque) and the adjustment on the top of the box (the easy one) was last in the process. Not sure where I read this....thought it was in my old Motor manual but I didn't find it at a quick glance. Anyway the first adjustment seemed darn difficult to do in vehicle and I didn't have the means to measure the low values of torque called for. Your procedure is clearly simpler. And I am guessing you have used this with success?? At this time, the LCA and tie rods are off the vehicle. I could put the pitman back on temporarily but there is no way to check the end result from a driveability standpoint. I have had the car for about 22 years and it was much better long ago. The wheel goes smoothly lock-to-lock, so I don't think the top adjuster is too tight or adjusted while off center. Perhaps something has just worn more and now it was too loose? I suppose I could put the new parts in, and hook up to the box after your procedure. But if the box needs to come out, then I have to separate everything again (and I know a pickle fork is not the best for re-using parts). Do you think the impact of your procedure would be evident by just observing the pitman arm behavior?

Re: Lares Manual Steering Box [Re: davenc] #2924158 05/18/21 10:09 PM 05/18/21 10:09 PM
Joined: Jul 2008 Posts: 608 Boise M Moparteacher mopar
Moparteacher mopar M Joined: Jul 2008 Posts: 608 Boise	You can measure the rotational torque, or break-away torque, by measuring the diameter of the steering wheel, divide by 2. This gives you the distance from center to the grip of the wheel. Now, with the steering linkage disconnected, pack putty (Play-Do) onto the wheel at the 3 o'clock or 9 o'clock position until the wheel turns and the putty drops to the 6 o'clock position. Remove the putty and weigh the putty with a simple kitchen scale. Multiple the weight of the putty by the number of inches to the center of the wheel. For example: It took 7 oz. of putty to turn the steering wheel. The putty was 8 inches from the center of the steering wheel. Now multiple 7x8=56. Now divide by 16. (16 oz. in a lb.) 56/16+3.5. It took 3.5 inch lbs of torque to turn the steering wheel. You can start with the desired weight of putty applied and simply loosen the pitman adjuster until the wheel turns. Do you know the specification for rotational torque on the box?

Re: Lares Manual Steering Box [Re: davenc] #2924280 05/19/21 10:38 AM 05/19/21 10:38 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 15,348 Omaha Ne T TJP I Live Here
TJP I Live Here T Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 15,348 Omaha Ne	Originally Posted by davenc TJP, Thanks for the detailed steps. I had considered at one time trying to adjust the box in car, but from what I understood at the time was you had two adjustments to do (using rotational torque) and the adjustment on the top of the box (the easy one) was last in the process. Not sure where I read this....thought it was in my old Motor manual but I didn't find it at a quick glance. Anyway the first adjustment seemed darn difficult to do in vehicle and I didn't have the means to measure the low values of torque called for. Your procedure is clearly simpler. And I am guessing you have used this with success?? At this time, the LCA and tie rods are off the vehicle. I could put the pitman back on temporarily but there is no way to check the end result from a driveability standpoint. I have had the car for about 22 years and it was much better long ago. The wheel goes smoothly lock-to-lock, so I don't think the top adjuster is too tight or adjusted while off center. Perhaps something has just worn more and now it was too loose? I suppose I could put the new parts in, and hook up to the box after your procedure. But if the box needs to come out, then I have to separate everything again (and I know a pickle fork is not the best for re-using parts). Do you think the impact of your procedure would be evident by just observing the pitman arm behavior? yes I have many times. And to clarify, their are actually 2 adjustments. The first sets the preload with new or used bearings on the worm gear which is attached to the column shaft. There should be ZERO endplay and with new bearing a slight preload. the second adjustment moves the sector (pitman gear) up or down depending on which way the adj. screw is turned. The worm has a slight crown to it which highest point is at the center. This is why the adjustment must be done while the box is midway between stops and the pitman arm removed or linkage disconnected. The rotational torque is nice when it's on the bench. When it's in the car, One can wiggle the steering shaft while feeling for movement on the pitman as you adjust preferably with a helper. you are going for minimal play with NO BINNDING as you pass the crown on the worm. NOTE: the further away from center on the worm the clearance increases. www.tandmautomotive-omaha.com

Re: Lares Manual Steering Box [Re: Moparteacher] #2924652 05/19/21 09:36 PM 05/19/21 09:36 PM
Joined: May 2005 Posts: 598 NC, USA D davenc OP mopar
davenc OP mopar D Joined: May 2005 Posts: 598 NC, USA	Moparteacher, That is a clever technique! The torque specs were in the procedure I had read; I thought it might be in my old Motor manual and I looked again and it is there! So the procedure has worm bearing adjustment first. The rotational torque is measured as the wheel moves away from full lock (1-4 in-lbs). The 3" lock nut needs to be broken loose with a drift and I can't imagine this would be easy in the car (after 50+ years!). Once that is set, then the pitman shaft adjustment is set at the center point. That rotational torque spec is 8-11 in-lbs. I keep coming back to the fact that the box is 51 years old, the suspension is apart, and it just seems to be wise to swap the box for one that is claimed to be back to factory spec. Is there something in the box waiting to fail in another year or so? At the least it seems the box would need to come out and be torn down for a full inspection (versus pay for the convenience of a simple swap). But of course the quality of a vendors box is really important in the case of a swap, and why I was leaning towards the 'new' Lares box.

Re: Lares Manual Steering Box [Re: TJP] #2924660 05/19/21 09:45 PM 05/19/21 09:45 PM
Joined: May 2005 Posts: 598 NC, USA D davenc OP mopar
davenc OP mopar D Joined: May 2005 Posts: 598 NC, USA	TJP, OK, this makes good sense. I did find the procedure with the rotational torque that I had read before (as described in my response to Moparteacher). As mentioned, given the age of the box and that I have everything else apart, it seems diving into or swapping the box is the best path for the long term. Thanks for all of the input! I am definitely going to try to assess by hand how much play is in the box as it sits today.

Re: Lares Manual Steering Box [Re: davenc] #2927353 05/27/21 05:47 PM 05/27/21 05:47 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,094 central texas K krautrock top fuel
krautrock top fuel K Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,094 central texas	here you go, 10% off this weekend, free shipping and if i remember correctly i didn't pay tax either...i got the 16:1, they should have the 24:1 ratio also... https://p-s-t.com/

Re: Lares Manual Steering Box [Re: krautrock] #2928334 05/29/21 10:10 PM 05/29/21 10:10 PM
Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 10,205 Someplace you aren't S SomeCarGuy I Live Here
SomeCarGuy I Live Here S Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 10,205 Someplace you aren't	Firm feel used to sell a rebuild kit for those. Not much in those boxes. I’d adjust it before I went and bought anything. Also not hard to do. I want my fair share

Re: Lares Manual Steering Box [Re: SomeCarGuy] #2928633 05/30/21 07:52 PM 05/30/21 07:52 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 15,348 Omaha Ne T TJP I Live Here
TJP I Live Here T Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 15,348 Omaha Ne	Originally Posted by SomeCarGuy Firm feel used to sell a rebuild kit for those. Not much in those boxes. I’d adjust it before I went and bought anything. Also not hard to do. And will add, over the years I've had to properly adjust more than one rebuilt / new manual box. No Kidding www.tandmautomotive-omaha.com

Re: Lares Manual Steering Box [Re: TJP] #2929656 06/02/21 09:45 PM 06/02/21 09:45 PM
Joined: May 2005 Posts: 598 NC, USA D davenc OP mopar
davenc OP mopar D Joined: May 2005 Posts: 598 NC, USA	This past weekend I pulled the steering box out of the car. There is no play in the worm shaft and only a small amount in the sector shaft. This is clearly not the source of the poor steering that I was experiencing. Now I have to decide whether to open the box and inspect inside of it. I'm not sure of exactly what to look for though. Obvious flaws in the gears are easy but what about the more subtle things? How much play is expected with the mounting pivot on the lower control arms? My pivots had a fair amount; the bushings have now been replaced but there is still some definite play. Does the strut rod locate the LCA well enough that the pivot does not need to be tight? Obviously it needs to be able to freely rotate.

Re: Lares Manual Steering Box [Re: davenc] #2929711 06/03/21 10:15 AM 06/03/21 10:15 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 15,348 Omaha Ne T TJP I Live Here
TJP I Live Here T Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 15,348 Omaha Ne	Did you verify that the worm and sector were centered with the wheels straight ahead before removing it. Remember the play increases between the two as you move away from lock to lock center. Also keep in mind a little play out of the car, becomes A LOT when a 16" steering wheel is introduced And no, the LCA pivots should not be moving side to side as you turn the wheels. There was a post on that recently and the repair method generally used. Maybe someone will point you to it. keep us posted www.tandmautomotive-omaha.com

Re: Lares Manual Steering Box [Re: TJP] #2929902 06/03/21 09:06 PM 06/03/21 09:06 PM
Joined: May 2005 Posts: 598 NC, USA D davenc OP mopar
davenc OP mopar D Joined: May 2005 Posts: 598 NC, USA	TJP, The box play feels good when the sector shaft is centered. If I turned the wheel lock to lock, it was not perfectly even in both directions but it was pretty close. I sort of dismissed that since the problem has grown worse since the last alignment and the wheel centering should not have changed. Your point is well taken though. Is it possible that the box play has increased off-center over time? Does that imply the gears are wearing as some higher rate? I am thinking I will take the cover off the box and look inside, but I am not sure what to look for outside of gross issues. How is the gear wear assessed? Thanks

Re: Lares Manual Steering Box [Re: davenc] #2930727 06/06/21 11:54 PM 06/06/21 11:54 PM
Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 10,205 Someplace you aren't S SomeCarGuy I Live Here
SomeCarGuy I Live Here S Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 10,205 Someplace you aren't	If you pull it apart you can look at the bottom race. I’ve had them be pitted before. That and the lower bearing rusty due to water settling down there. The pivots have busted welds commonly. I want my fair share

Re: Lares Manual Steering Box [Re: SomeCarGuy] #2930838 06/07/21 11:39 AM 06/07/21 11:39 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 15,348 Omaha Ne T TJP I Live Here
TJP I Live Here T Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 15,348 Omaha Ne	Originally Posted by SomeCarGuy If you pull it apart you can look at the bottom race. I’ve had them be pitted before. That and the lower bearing rusty due to water settling down there. The pivots have busted welds commonly. on the welds. The pitting / bearing condition depends on a lot of variables. If your this far into it, take it the rest of the way apart and inspect them and the sector bushing. Referring to your earlier post Quote How much play is expected with the mounting pivot on the lower control arms? My pivots had a fair amount; the bushings have now been replaced but there is still some definite play. Does the strut rod locate the LCA well enough that the pivot does not need to be tight? Obviously it needs to be able to freely rotate. You may have missed my response: Quote And no, the LCA pivots should not be moving side to side as you turn the wheels. There was a post on that recently and the repair method generally used. Maybe someone will point you to it . The Shafts are tapered and should "lock" into the K frame. It is the bushing that is supposed to twist as the suspension moves. The tightening of the shafts should not be done until the front suspension is fully loaded. Doing so before will induce rotational stress on the rubber bushing and lead to premature failure. I'm suspecting your issue may be with the the shafts not locking in and inducing the play. www.tandmautomotive-omaha.com

Re: Lares Manual Steering Box [Re: TJP] #2931488 06/08/21 10:36 PM 06/08/21 10:36 PM
Joined: May 2005 Posts: 598 NC, USA D davenc OP mopar
davenc OP mopar D Joined: May 2005 Posts: 598 NC, USA	SomeCarGuy, TJP, Thanks for the input on what to look for inside. My time to work on this project is pretty intermittent due to other commitments but at this point opening the box up seems right. TJP, On the LCA I am observing play in the pivot just holding it in my hand. Watched some utube stuff (from a member here...Jim???) about play. He addresses play due to the separation between the sides of the LCA; this is not the cause for what I am seeing. On my LCA the play comes from the hole in the side of the LCA in which the pivot sits. I am assuming some play is normal just based on the basic design of these parts but was wondering if there is a way to judge normal. The pivot to frame mating was tight when I disassembled it so I am assuming it will be good when torqued down after the car is back on its wheels. m

Re: Lares Manual Steering Box [Re: davenc] #2931550 06/09/21 09:45 AM 06/09/21 09:45 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 15,348 Omaha Ne T TJP I Live Here
TJP I Live Here T Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 15,348 Omaha Ne	Originally Posted by davenc SomeCarGuy, TJP, Thanks for the input on what to look for inside. My time to work on this project is pretty intermittent due to other commitments but at this point opening the box up seems right. TJP, On the LCA I am observing play in the pivot just holding it in my hand. Watched some utube stuff (from a member here...Jim???) about play. He addresses play due to the separation between the sides of the LCA; this is not the cause for what I am seeing. On my LCA the play comes from the hole in the side of the LCA in which the pivot sits. I am assuming some play is normal just based on the basic design of these parts but was wondering if there is a way to judge normal. The pivot to frame mating was tight when I disassembled it so I am assuming it will be good when torqued down after the car is back on its wheels. m If the suspension is freshly rebuilt, unloaded and things are not torqued, you may be chasing a ghost (your tail) as any play in the steering should be analyzed with the car as it will be when being driven www.tandmautomotive-omaha.com

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