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MSD What would you do? long and wordy #291270
04/17/09 06:20 PM
04/17/09 06:20 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,923
new berlin wisconsin
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Mr T2U Offline OP
master
Mr T2U  Offline OP
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new berlin wisconsin
the basics on my motor.
i have a stroker 572ci hemi. first design stage 5 heads, indy single plane intake, holley 4150 style ultra HP 1000+ cfm carb with progressive linkage with out any vacuum ports on the base plate, large hydraulic cam with rhodes lifters, MSD 6AL ignition box, MSD blaster 2 anti-vibration coil. LOW compression motor so it runs on 87 octane reformulated gas.
my friend just installed a chassis dyno so we strapped it down and made about 15 dyno pulls, both full throttle and simulated driving, the AF ratio is perfect along the entire rpm curve. made corrected SAE 466hp @ 5500 rpm at the rear wheels with 535 ft lbs of torque, i have to check the dyno sheets for exact specs am going by memory now. we re-jetted the carb, changed air bleeds, adjusted the accelerator pump cams and squirters. adjusted the initial timing and the mechanical advance curves.
the car runs awsome now. MUCH more bottom end power and it revs much faster now.


my problem to get better idle quality we changed the inital to 12* advance at start up and now the car cranks over slower than i would like it to. i can retard the timing to 6* and it cranks perfect so the starter is fine.

would you just install a adjustable timing control or maybe install a MSD Digital 6-Plus box with built in start up retard?

i have the 6AL box hidden under the battery tray to keep it out of sight. i have all of the stock ignition box installed for the stock look and would like to keep it that way.

how big is the MSD timing control box? there are no specs on their website. do i have to install it under hood or can i install it under dash?

if i use the MSD digital 6-plus box i could sell my 6AL box to recover some cash.

WHAT WOULD YOU DO AND WHY WOULD YOU DO IT THAT WAY?


perception is 90% of reality
Re: MSD What would you do? long and wordy [Re: Mr T2U] #291271
04/17/09 06:42 PM
04/17/09 06:42 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,160
Mass
DAYCLONA Offline
I Live Here
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Mass


my problem to get better idle quality we changed the inital to 12* advance at start up and now the car cranks over slower than i would like it to. i can retard the timing to 6* and it cranks perfect







The Hemi is going to need all the advance you can give it,..........12 BTDC is fine,......what starter are you using?......if it's the old "wha, wha, wha, wha,...wha" factory starter.....upgrade to a newer mini hy-tork unit

Re: MSD What would you do? long and wordy [Re: Mr T2U] #291272
04/17/09 09:32 PM
04/17/09 09:32 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
mickm Offline
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California
sounds like the starter. i can run 20 degrees or more initial, and the mini starter i have cranks it right over.

i think i'm set at about 18 right now, with 32 total.

Re: MSD What would you do? long and wordy [Re: Mr T2U] #291273
04/17/09 09:58 PM
04/17/09 09:58 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,949
land of 10,000______'s
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BDS871Cuda Offline
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Like Don Garlits always said, those Hemi's love
timing. Just keep tossing more at it.

I agree on tossing the factory starter in the trash.
Yes, get a hi tork mini starter.

The Digital 6 from MSD is a very good box.
A used 6-AL might not bring much $$$.
If I was going to upgrade, I would do the
Digital 7 plus, that you can tune with a lap top.


Snap your neck, mega G-force launch, is all I want!
Re: MSD What would you do? long and wordy [Re: Mr T2U] #291274
04/17/09 10:13 PM
04/17/09 10:13 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041
Lincoln Nebraska
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RapidRobert Offline
Circle Track
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Lincoln Nebraska
Quote:

WHAT WOULD YOU DO AND WHY WOULD YOU DO IT THAT WAY?


We had the same problem on our circle track cars w alot of initial so I hooked an ign kill toggle switch & crank it & when it's cranking THEN switch the ign on.


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: MSD What would you do? long and wordy [Re: RapidRobert] #291275
04/17/09 11:26 PM
04/17/09 11:26 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,379
Houston,Tx.
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Lee446 Offline
pro stock
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Houston,Tx.
The MSD adjustable timing module that is available for the 6al works great! My msd box was mounted on an aluminum plate inside my glovebox(liner removed) I installed the timing module beside it and it has the reostat for changing the timing + or - 15*. The adjuster can be mounted with doublesided tape(supplied) anywhere inside it will reach. It will do what you want and save you a bunch of money. The diminsions of the box itself IIRC is 3"x 3", not very big.

Last edited by Lee446; 04/17/09 11:29 PM.
Re: MSD What would you do? long and wordy [Re: Lee446] #291276
04/18/09 12:58 AM
04/18/09 12:58 AM
Joined: Apr 2005
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new berlin wisconsin
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Mr T2U Offline OP
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Mr T2U  Offline OP
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new berlin wisconsin
i am using a NEW mini starter from mopar, the big ones won't clear the headers, i purchased last fall, worked great last year with 6* initial last year. i don't even have 600 miles on this starter. i have good voltage at the battery, i am using one of the better, square back, alternators. i electronically tested the battery and it checked out ok. load tested the alternator and that passed inspection. cleaned all of the connections.

can i mount the retard box under the dash when i have the 6AL under the battery? or do i have to mount it near the box?
a new retard box is about $150 from jegs, the 6 digital is only about $100 more and MSD's website says there is a retard function built in.
i really don't want to go with a 7 because the box is so big and would have trouble hiding it, and i really don't want to rewire another box in.
then again if i go with the 6 digital i would have to rewire that.
i was thinking my best bet would be to use the retard box, if it's only 3"X 3" i could hide it under the battery tray with the 6AL box. and buy another starter just to be safe.
my buddy with the chassis dyno says those stroker motors, 4.5" stroke or more, don't like the stock mini starters you have to use the heavy duty ones like from RobbMc. i really don't want to spend $300 for a starter just to sell the car.


perception is 90% of reality
Re: MSD What would you do? long and wordy [Re: RapidRobert] #291277
04/18/09 07:07 AM
04/18/09 07:07 AM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,847
Oakdale CT
gdonovan Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

WHAT WOULD YOU DO AND WHY WOULD YOU DO IT THAT WAY?


We had the same problem on our circle track cars w alot of initial so I hooked an ign kill toggle switch & crank it & when it's cranking THEN switch the ign on.




+1

It is quick, cheap and easy.

Re: MSD What would you do? long and wordy [Re: gdonovan] #291278
04/18/09 08:37 AM
04/18/09 08:37 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,064
Arlington, Texas
earlybee Offline
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earlybee  Offline
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Arlington, Texas
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

WHAT WOULD YOU DO AND WHY WOULD YOU DO IT THAT WAY?


We had the same problem on our circle track cars w alot of initial so I hooked an ign kill toggle switch & crank it & when it's cranking THEN switch the ign on.




+1

It is quick, cheap and easy.


Did this before MSD and mini-starters was born. You can hide it under the dash.

Re: MSD What would you do? long and wordy [Re: Mr T2U] #291279
04/18/09 09:36 AM
04/18/09 09:36 AM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 531
Virginia
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JimG Offline
mopar
JimG  Offline
mopar
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 531
Virginia
Quote:

i am using a NEW mini starter from mopar, the big ones won't clear the headers, i purchased last fall, worked great last year with 6* initial last year. i don't even have 600 miles on this starter. i have good voltage at the battery, i am using one of the better, square back, alternators. i electronically tested the battery and it checked out ok. load tested the alternator and that passed inspection. cleaned all of the connections.




You still might have excessive voltage drop. Here's how you can check it.

Set the timing back at 12* or where ever the starter turns slowly. Get a DC voltmeter, set it on a scale for 12 volts or less, and connect one lead to the positive battery terminal and the other to the big stud on the starter. Have an assistant crank the car. Read the meter while he is cranking. The observed reading is the voltage drop on the positive side of the starter.

Now connect the meter to the negative battery terminal and to the case of the starter. Repeat. The voltage reading will indicate the voltage drop on the negative side.

Finally, read the voltage across the battery while the car is being cranked.

Add the two voltage drops together, then subtract the sum from your battery voltage, and that's how much voltage your starter is getting while cranking.

If the voltage drop is excessive, try to correct it by cleaning connections, adding larger wire, better ground from engine to chassis to battery (negative side only), etc.

If there is not excessive voltage drop, the problem is either your starter is weak or your particular engine combo is really hard to crank at 12*.

I think you can narrow it down by using the above proceedure.

If you can get your hands on an older, analog style voltmeter, that would probably be easier to use in this case. While cranking, the voltage drop will likely be fluctuating wildly, and a digital meter might just display meaningless, rapidly-changing numbers as it tries to lock in on the rapidly-changing voltage.

Jim

Last edited by JimG; 04/18/09 09:44 AM.






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