EFI upgrade for LA motor?
#2907411
04/06/21 07:14 PM
04/06/21 07:14 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 730 Nampa, ID
MadMatt
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 730
Nampa, ID
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I'm thinking of upgrading to EFI for better driveability and I wanted to get suggestions and hear some real world experiences. I have a 360 cube LA motor, built from a 90's MP short block, with ported 308 heads, a Comp Cam hydraulic lifter cam, Eddy Performer intake, a Demon 725 cfm carb, 3:55 gears, and a TKO 600 5-speed, in a 1970 Dart. I'm looking at EFI because the current setup is really "cold-blooded" though it idles pretty well once it warms up.
Does anyone have a recommendation for a throttle body EFI system that is easy to install? I already have an in-tank EFI capable fuel pump and regulator. Do I need to switch to a single-plane manifold, or perhaps a carb spacer on the dual plane? Any and all input is appreciated!
Some see the glass as half empty, some see the glass as half full. I just drink straight out of the bottle.
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Re: EFI upgrade for LA motor?
[Re: MadMatt]
#2907424
04/06/21 07:48 PM
04/06/21 07:48 PM
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 596 Mass.
80fbody
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 596
Mass.
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I have a Sniper on a small block chevy that is great. Just gotta be real diligent with all your wiring, fuel, grounds and charging system. No hackage or you'll be endlessly frustrated. My '55 starts in zero degree weather with a turn of the key like a new Kia. No touching the throttle or staying there while it warms up. I run a performer rpm intake with a phenolic carb spacer. It helps the IAC as well as keep heat out of the unit. I'm also running the Hyperspark ignition so it's all controlled by the computer. Definitely stay with Holley for your first system. They have way, way more support than any other brand right now. Don't buy a Fitech cause its a few $$ cheaper. Other one is Edelbrock and if they have a small block mopar package it may be worth a shot as their kits are individual injectors with a new intake. That is the best style but expensive from Holley to go that route. https://imgur.com/joTipGf
Last edited by 80fbody; 04/06/21 07:49 PM.
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Re: EFI upgrade for LA motor?
[Re: 80fbody]
#2907427
04/06/21 07:52 PM
04/06/21 07:52 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,441 Michigan
MarkZ
Worthy
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Worthy
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,441
Michigan
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Another vote for a Sniper. If you already have a fuel system it's a no brainer. Get the distributor and ignition to control timing as well.
1987 Fifth Avenue - 512/518/D60
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Re: EFI upgrade for LA motor?
[Re: MadMatt]
#2907433
04/06/21 08:03 PM
04/06/21 08:03 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,171 Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
Special needs idiot
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Special needs idiot
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,171
Benton, IL.
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I believe that our own ThumperDart can put you together a carb that would rival the retro-fit throttle body systems in driveability and for a lot less money and hassle.
For that matter, if your cam is mild and idle not too lumpy, the new Street Demons that look similar to the old Thermoquads are very good carbs right out of the box for mild engines. And for $300 or so, are a real bargain to boot. Lots of Youtube videos on them.
Master, again and still
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Re: EFI upgrade for LA motor?
[Re: 80fbody]
#2907447
04/06/21 08:36 PM
04/06/21 08:36 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 730 Nampa, ID
MadMatt
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 730
Nampa, ID
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I have a Sniper on a small block chevy that is great. Just gotta be real diligent with all your wiring, fuel, grounds and charging system. No hackage or you'll be endlessly frustrated. My '55 starts in zero degree weather with a turn of the key like a new Kia. No touching the throttle or staying there while it warms up. I run a performer rpm intake with a phenolic carb spacer. It helps the IAC as well as keep heat out of the unit. I'm also running the Hyperspark ignition so it's all controlled by the computer. Definitely stay with Holley for your first system. They have way, way more support than any other brand right now. Don't buy a Fitech cause its a few $$ cheaper. Other one is Edelbrock and if they have a small block mopar package it may be worth a shot as their kits are individual injectors with a new intake. That is the best style but expensive from Holley to go that route. https://imgur.com/joTipGf Thanks for the input. Are you running an open spacer? How tall is it?
Some see the glass as half empty, some see the glass as half full. I just drink straight out of the bottle.
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Re: EFI upgrade for LA motor?
[Re: DaveRS23]
#2907449
04/06/21 08:43 PM
04/06/21 08:43 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 730 Nampa, ID
MadMatt
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 730
Nampa, ID
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I believe that our own ThumperDart can put you together a carb that would rival the retro-fit throttle body systems in driveability and for a lot less money and hassle.
For that matter, if your cam is mild and idle not too lumpy, the new Street Demons that look similar to the old Thermoquads are very good carbs right out of the box for mild engines. And for $300 or so, are a real bargain to boot. Lots of Youtube videos on them. I didn't put this in my original post but I drive the car spring/summer/fall here in Idaho, so temperatures from about 45 degrees to 100 degrees, and I drive in elevations ranging from 800-5200 feet above sea level. No disrespect intended, but do you honestly think any carb can handle those conditions as well as an EFI system with it's multitude of sensors?
Some see the glass as half empty, some see the glass as half full. I just drink straight out of the bottle.
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Re: EFI upgrade for LA motor?
[Re: MadMatt]
#2907455
04/06/21 08:49 PM
04/06/21 08:49 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,050 Oregon
AndyF
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,050
Oregon
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I believe that our own ThumperDart can put you together a carb that would rival the retro-fit throttle body systems in driveability and for a lot less money and hassle.
For that matter, if your cam is mild and idle not too lumpy, the new Street Demons that look similar to the old Thermoquads are very good carbs right out of the box for mild engines. And for $300 or so, are a real bargain to boot. Lots of Youtube videos on them. I didn't put this in my original post but I drive the car spring/summer/fall here in Idaho, so temperatures from about 45 degrees to 100 degrees, and I drive in elevations ranging from 800-5200 feet above sea level. No disrespect intended, but do you honestly think any carb can handle those conditions as well as an EFI system with it's multitude of sensors? A Sniper system will work a lot better than a carb once the Sniper is properly dialed in. It does take some computer skill to dial a Sniper in so you need to think about that. Ideally you need a Windows laptop to really understand and work with a Sniper. You'll also need the matching Hyperspark distributor to control the ignition timing. The Sniper has a built in data logging system that keeps track of what the engine is doing. A data logger is a great tool to have once you get used to it and learn how to use it.
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Re: EFI upgrade for LA motor?
[Re: AndyF]
#2907471
04/06/21 09:10 PM
04/06/21 09:10 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 730 Nampa, ID
MadMatt
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 730
Nampa, ID
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I believe that our own ThumperDart can put you together a carb that would rival the retro-fit throttle body systems in driveability and for a lot less money and hassle.
For that matter, if your cam is mild and idle not too lumpy, the new Street Demons that look similar to the old Thermoquads are very good carbs right out of the box for mild engines. And for $300 or so, are a real bargain to boot. Lots of Youtube videos on them. I didn't put this in my original post but I drive the car spring/summer/fall here in Idaho, so temperatures from about 45 degrees to 100 degrees, and I drive in elevations ranging from 800-5200 feet above sea level. No disrespect intended, but do you honestly think any carb can handle those conditions as well as an EFI system with it's multitude of sensors? A Sniper system will work a lot better than a carb once the Sniper is properly dialed in. It does take some computer skill to dial a Sniper in so you need to think about that. Ideally you need a Windows laptop to really understand and work with a Sniper. You'll also need the matching Hyperspark distributor to control the ignition timing. The Sniper has a built in data logging system that keeps track of what the engine is doing. A data logger is a great tool to have once you get used to it and learn how to use it. Thanks for both your replies. I am planning to get the Hyperspark distributor to go with it, and fortunately I have a Window's laptop. I have basic computer skills, but luckily my son is a computer science major and loves cars, so I should be good to go there. I was thinking about going with the basic system because it has the built in regulator and saves a few bucks. I do have an adjustable Aeromotive regulator already installed and was thinking I could clean up the engine compartment a bit by using the built-in. I'm not too concerned on the linkage as I've changed it half a dozen times as I've gone from AVS to Holley to Demon and from AT to the TKO-600. Do you feel strongly that there are other advantages to the 4150-type unit? Also, do you know if the stock Mopar alternator will supply sufficient amps? I think my unit is rated at 55-60 amps, and all my lights are LED except the headlights and front turn signals. I have a 35 watt stereo, heater and OEM A/C with a Sanden compressor. I'm currently running the MP labeled MSD 6A box with the MP replacement distributor that was made by Mallory.
Last edited by MadMatt; 04/06/21 09:12 PM.
Some see the glass as half empty, some see the glass as half full. I just drink straight out of the bottle.
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Re: EFI upgrade for LA motor?
[Re: MadMatt]
#2907510
04/06/21 10:43 PM
04/06/21 10:43 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,050 Oregon
AndyF
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,050
Oregon
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Thanks for both your replies. I am planning to get the Hyperspark distributor to go with it, and fortunately I have a Window's laptop. I have basic computer skills, but luckily my son is a computer science major and loves cars, so I should be good to go there. I was thinking about going with the basic system because it has the built in regulator and saves a few bucks. I do have an adjustable Aeromotive regulator already installed and was thinking I could clean up the engine compartment a bit by using the built-in. I'm not too concerned on the linkage as I've changed it half a dozen times as I've gone from AVS to Holley to Demon and from AT to the TKO-600. Do you feel strongly that there are other advantages to the 4150-type unit?
Also, do you know if the stock Mopar alternator will supply sufficient amps? I think my unit is rated at 55-60 amps, and all my lights are LED except the headlights and front turn signals. I have a 35 watt stereo, heater and OEM A/C with a Sanden compressor. I'm currently running the MP labeled MSD 6A box with the MP replacement distributor that was made by Mallory.
EFI really prefers a modern alternator which is one reason why I designed a swap kit to put the Denso 60 amp unit on a big block or small block. You can try your existing alternator but if you run into issues with electrical noise then you'll need to upgrade to a modern alternator. The cleanest fuel system is to use a EFI module with the pump and regulator inside the tank. Holley sells a EFI module that drops into a '70 Dart tank. https://www.holley.com/products/fue...umps/muscle_car_efi_modules/parts/12-319If you don't want to replace the parts you already have then you can use your existing pump and regulator or you can buy the Sniper with a built in regulator. The built in regulators are a known issue so if you go that way buy a spare and make sure you have the correct hex key in your tool box to change the regulator. It takes a weird metric hex key and the screws are locktited into the throttle body so it can be a pain to deal with. The Hyperspark distributor will work with your existing MSD ignition box and coil so you don't need to change anything there.
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Re: EFI upgrade for LA motor?
[Re: AndyF]
#2907529
04/07/21 12:19 AM
04/07/21 12:19 AM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 730 Nampa, ID
MadMatt
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 730
Nampa, ID
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Thanks for both your replies. I am planning to get the Hyperspark distributor to go with it, and fortunately I have a Window's laptop. I have basic computer skills, but luckily my son is a computer science major and loves cars, so I should be good to go there. I was thinking about going with the basic system because it has the built in regulator and saves a few bucks. I do have an adjustable Aeromotive regulator already installed and was thinking I could clean up the engine compartment a bit by using the built-in. I'm not too concerned on the linkage as I've changed it half a dozen times as I've gone from AVS to Holley to Demon and from AT to the TKO-600. Do you feel strongly that there are other advantages to the 4150-type unit?
Also, do you know if the stock Mopar alternator will supply sufficient amps? I think my unit is rated at 55-60 amps, and all my lights are LED except the headlights and front turn signals. I have a 35 watt stereo, heater and OEM A/C with a Sanden compressor. I'm currently running the MP labeled MSD 6A box with the MP replacement distributor that was made by Mallory.
EFI really prefers a modern alternator which is one reason why I designed a swap kit to put the Denso 60 amp unit on a big block or small block. You can try your existing alternator but if you run into issues with electrical noise then you'll need to upgrade to a modern alternator. The cleanest fuel system is to use a EFI module with the pump and regulator inside the tank. Holley sells a EFI module that drops into a '70 Dart tank. https://www.holley.com/products/fue...umps/muscle_car_efi_modules/parts/12-319If you don't want to replace the parts you already have then you can use your existing pump and regulator or you can buy the Sniper with a built in regulator. The built in regulators are a known issue so if you go that way buy a spare and make sure you have the correct hex key in your tool box to change the regulator. It takes a weird metric hex key and the screws are locktited into the throttle body so it can be a pain to deal with. The Hyperspark distributor will work with your existing MSD ignition box and coil so you don't need to change anything there. I think I'll just go ahead and upgrade the alternator. I actually already have your bracket kit, I just never got around to installing it. Based on everything you said, I think I should go with the 4150 style Sniper and use the external regulator and my existing pump. I did the in-tank probably 7 or 8 years ago and can't remember the brand right this moment, but it was a good one in a brand new tank, and it has been trouble free since, though I've had it regulated down to feed the carb.
Some see the glass as half empty, some see the glass as half full. I just drink straight out of the bottle.
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Re: EFI upgrade for LA motor?
[Re: MadMatt]
#2907599
04/07/21 08:58 AM
04/07/21 08:58 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,171 Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
Special needs idiot
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Special needs idiot
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,171
Benton, IL.
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I believe that our own ThumperDart can put you together a carb that would rival the retro-fit throttle body systems in driveability and for a lot less money and hassle.
For that matter, if your cam is mild and idle not too lumpy, the new Street Demons that look similar to the old Thermoquads are very good carbs right out of the box for mild engines. And for $300 or so, are a real bargain to boot. Lots of Youtube videos on them. I didn't put this in my original post but I drive the car spring/summer/fall here in Idaho, so temperatures from about 45 degrees to 100 degrees, and I drive in elevations ranging from 800-5200 feet above sea level. No disrespect intended, but do you honestly think any carb can handle those conditions as well as an EFI system with it's multitude of sensors? The temp swing is no big deal. Properly tuned, carbs have been handling it forever. The ThumperDart tuned Dominator on my Hemi does it just fine and that is with no choke. Others will have to weigh in on the current situation with elevations. It has been 50 years since I have been in a car going over the continental divide. But back then, the Fury had a /6 and did just fine. There are a few advantages to retrofit fuel injection. But only a few. And only the user can determine if those few advantages are worth the extra cost and complexity. Most potential EFI purchasers are exaggerating the advantages of EFI because they are comparing the EFI to an un-tuned or faulty carb. Factory designed and installed fuel injection on modern cars is an entirely different animal and none of us would want to go back to the good old days of carbureted engines. But wet manifold throttle body retrofit EFI is just about as obsolete as carbs are. They are just more expensive, complicated, and with a steeper learning curve for most users. I will say it again, a properly tuned carburetor can deliver as nearly perfect a driving experience as most retrofit EFI systems can. But I will add this; if the additional cost, complexity, and learning/tuning curve are not a problem, then there is no reason not to go with EFI. Other than the issue of future obsolescence and difficulty in getting certain proprietary replacement parts.
Master, again and still
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Re: EFI upgrade for LA motor?
[Re: DaveRS23]
#2907600
04/07/21 09:04 AM
04/07/21 09:04 AM
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Joined: May 2019
Posts: 6,290 nowhere
Sniper
master
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master
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 6,290
nowhere
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Other than the issue of future obsolescence and difficulty in getting certain proprietary replacement parts. Years ago, decades actually, I put Holley's Projection 2D on my Diplomat. Good luck getting those proprietary parts for it. Something to consider actually. I can get part for my 51's B&B carb easier.
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Re: EFI upgrade for LA motor?
[Re: Sniper]
#2907640
04/07/21 10:54 AM
04/07/21 10:54 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,236 Chicago, IL
PLUM_72
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,236
Chicago, IL
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I am assuming there are headers on the engine. Those with EFI experience, are your typical headers sealed well enough for adding an O2 sensor? Or are we also talking header upgrade to a premium header with O2 bungs already installed?
1972 Dodge Challenger
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