Metal Filings in 426 Hemi, Ideas?
#2838147
10/27/20 10:12 PM
10/27/20 10:12 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 138 CO
ihv800
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OP
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 138
CO
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Hey all!
A friend asked if I would do a several odd jobs on his '70 Cuda that has had a 426 Hemi swapped in. The motor is fresh, less than 100 miles I would say, maybe even less than 50. I noticed a slight but concerning tick/knock that prompted me to cut open the oil filter. I found whats pictured, lots of filings. First pic is the oil I got out of the filter, second is the bottom of the filter and probably best shows the flakes and filings (there's a few flakes nearly 1/8in diameter), last is what I captured washing the pleats in some gas then straining and letting dry. What I captured is very magnetic (some of the bigger chunks are silicone). He didn't seem interested in dealing with the shop that did the engine and asked if I could diagnose. My initial thought was it wiped the cam or something. I pulled the valve covers, intake, and oil pan and found nothing out of line. I discovered it has a hydraulic roller cam, it and the lifters all look good, valve train looks good, cylinder walls look new from the bottom, nothing obvious in the bottom end. Rod side clearance seems normal on all, none are tight on the journals, and nothing wobbly loose. I guess I will start pulling caps tomorrow but just looking for some ideas! Oil pump? Or?
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Re: Metal Filings in 426 Hemi, Ideas?
[Re: ihv800]
#2838173
10/27/20 11:34 PM
10/27/20 11:34 PM
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,869 Pattison Texas
CSK
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master
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,869
Pattison Texas
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Engine needs to come out & taken apart & repair it.
Last edited by csk; 10/27/20 11:34 PM.
1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI 512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim 2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5
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Re: Metal Filings in 426 Hemi, Ideas?
[Re: ihv800]
#2838265
10/28/20 10:11 AM
10/28/20 10:11 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,216 Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
Special needs idiot
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Special needs idiot
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Benton, IL.
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WOW! That's a bunch of metal, especially for that short a run time. No matter the source, it's been all through the engine. The thing HAS to come out and apart. First to find the original problem, second to fix the collateral damage the metal may have done, and third to inspect the entire build for any other problems. No way would I continue to run that engine after seeing that. What a shame.
Master, again and still
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Re: Metal Filings in 426 Hemi, Ideas?
[Re: ihv800]
#2838279
10/28/20 11:04 AM
10/28/20 11:04 AM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,285 West Coast, USA
jbc426
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master
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West Coast, USA
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Poor guy. I had metal in motor and everything cam apart. Turns out the needle bearings in just my exhaust T&D rockers were blown out due to incorrect spring pressure allowing valve train harmonics to destroy them.
With only 100 miles, you guys are lucky to have found this early, but that's why we cut open oil filters etc after initial run in. Be sure to use Jomar 100% bypass oil filters in the future. It saved my bottom end, which reduced the refresh/repair cost from my event.
1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(block in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's 1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 4.30's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
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Re: Metal Filings in 426 Hemi, Ideas?
[Re: ihv800]
#2838290
10/28/20 11:28 AM
10/28/20 11:28 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,892 S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,892
S.E. Michigan
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The only other things I might want to have a look at before pulling it out of the car for teardown, is the intermediate shaft, timing cover and cam thrust /retention/button setup.
You say it has a hydraulic roller.
If a person were to install a cam button and force fit the timing cover on without creating thrust clearance, in other words if they bind up the cam between the block and the timing cover, the timing gear-to-block interface could be eating each other up and could potentially make that much metal.
If it has a billet steel camshaft and gear with a stock intermediate shaft, those could be eating each other up as well.
It has to come out and be torn down regardless....... as that metal has been circulating and has probably done some damage....but it might provide worthwhile info to have a look at those areas.
Rich H.
Esse Quam Videri
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Re: Metal Filings in 426 Hemi, Ideas?
[Re: ihv800]
#2838386
10/28/20 03:39 PM
10/28/20 03:39 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,637 Florida
GMP440
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,637
Florida
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I agree it needs to come out and blown apart, unfortunately. I'm just not sure he's gonna want to invest that in it right at the moment and I would like to find out what's happening and why in the meantime. I will look at the oil pump and take a peek at some bearings, number 3 main is a good idea. This is the first oil drain since new engine (unless the place that put it together did once, but I doubt it). I did not pull the cam and lifters, so I can't say with absolute certainty there's no issue there, just a preliminary close inspection shows all the lobes look great as do the rollers. The cam thrust setup and intermediate gear is very good information, I will look at that too. I've done a lot of low buck messing around with 440's, but a roller cam Hemi is a bit out of my wheelhouse. Thanks a ton for the thoughts everyone! I would explain to the owner that the engine needs to come out and taken apart. Show him the metal. That is a lot of metal in the pics I'm sure if the owner will understand the importance of why it needs to be done.
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Re: Metal Filings in 426 Hemi, Ideas?
[Re: GMP440]
#2838477
10/28/20 07:23 PM
10/28/20 07:23 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,311 fredericksburg,va
cudaman1969
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master
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fredericksburg,va
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Why do you run a filter, to trap those pieces BEFORE it goes through the oiling system. Other question, why do you need a can trust bearing? The cam is forced into the engine by the force from the oil pump. Dirt form whatever the reason for this ‘rebuild’
Last edited by cudaman1969; 10/28/20 07:23 PM.
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Re: Metal Filings in 426 Hemi, Ideas?
[Re: roadrunninMark]
#2840088
11/01/20 11:54 AM
11/01/20 11:54 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,216 Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
Special needs idiot
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Special needs idiot
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,216
Benton, IL.
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While I see your point, I am not sure that I would want the shop that screwed it up in the first place, taking a second shot at it. What confidence do you have that they wouldn't screw it up.........again?
Master, again and still
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Re: Metal Filings in 426 Hemi, Ideas?
[Re: bobby66]
#2841033
11/03/20 12:02 AM
11/03/20 12:02 AM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 138 CO
ihv800
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Well, I looked at what I could with the engine in the car, no smoking gun, everything I can see looks great. Has a bronze intermediate gear that is new (he brought over the old parts leftover from the rebuild), has a cam thrust button and no issues there, took every rod cap off and the mains that were accessible, bearings look new, journals look great, and the oil pump is new though it has had some of the trash I found through it. He had bought the car at auction, got it home, and it started hammering HARD shortly after unloading. He took it somewhere and they found a spun rod bearing, they went through it all and took care of it. Near as I can tell what I found (magnetic filings and bearing material) is from the spun rod that must not have gotten cleaned out during the rebuild, or it could be one of the mains or a cam bearing, but I sure don't see evidence. It will come out and taken apart to at very least be thoroughly cleaned and checked over at some point. Don't mistake that as it will be ran and used until then, it won't.
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