Locked out distributor
#2817729
09/06/20 10:26 AM
09/06/20 10:26 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,296 Chicago, IL
TonyS451
OP
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OP
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Chicago, IL
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Running a locked msd pro billet on my 12.5-1 493 . I have a digital 6 w start retard, but still get starter kickback and hard starting from time to time. Very annoying to say the least, but once started it runs awesome. Contemplating swapping distributor for a non locked version, or perhaps wire a start switch so I can get engine cranking first and then hit ignition. Built as a race car that wants to do some street cruising as well. Any thoughts?
2 kids and a dog
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Re: Locked out distributor
[Re: TonyS451]
#2817744
09/06/20 11:05 AM
09/06/20 11:05 AM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,212 New York
polyspheric
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master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,212
New York
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What setting does the retard default to?
Reasons to lock the distributor: 1. one less thing to fail 2. fewer questions 3. less maintenance 4. don't understand what an advance curve does 5. bought it that way
The best spark setting for mixed use is not, ever, a single position. Beyond a certain RPM, and assuming WOT, a single setting is very close.
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: Locked out distributor
[Re: AndyF]
#2817761
09/06/20 11:35 AM
09/06/20 11:35 AM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457 Washington
madscientist
master
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master
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Washington
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Unlock the distributor and put the correct curve in it. Locking the timing out is wrong.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: Locked out distributor
[Re: Dragula]
#2817775
09/06/20 11:59 AM
09/06/20 11:59 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,296 Chicago, IL
TonyS451
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Somtimes mine would work, somtimes it wouldn't....Hated it.
Same!
2 kids and a dog
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Re: Locked out distributor
[Re: polyspheric]
#2817776
09/06/20 12:04 PM
09/06/20 12:04 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,296 Chicago, IL
TonyS451
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Chicago, IL
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What setting does the retard default to?
Reasons to lock the distributor: 1. one less thing to fail 2. fewer questions 3. less maintenance 4. don't understand what an advance curve does 5. bought it that way
The best spark setting for mixed use is not, ever, a single position. Beyond a certain RPM, and assuming WOT, a single setting is very close. Bought it that way thinking I had a start retard and it wouldn’t be an issue. Wrong! MSD digital 6 manual says it retards timing 20 degrees. I guess I also planned for this car to be race only, but now I’m getting some street use out of it.
2 kids and a dog
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Re: Locked out distributor
[Re: AndyF]
#2817779
09/06/20 12:05 PM
09/06/20 12:05 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,296 Chicago, IL
TonyS451
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Time to finally make the switch to a Holley Sniper. Then you'll have EFI, plus data logging and a fully adjustable timing curve including start retard built in. Maybe when budget allows ..
2 kids and a dog
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Re: Locked out distributor
[Re: TonyS451]
#2817786
09/06/20 12:18 PM
09/06/20 12:18 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,418 Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Dragula
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,418
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
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I now have a Pertronix ignition and it has a start retard built in. I have not tried it. If what they say is true of the rotor stopping in the wrong spot, then this box probably would not be any different, but again I have not tried it. I always thought it was because mine was added on after the fact instead of built in.
Reasons to lock the distributor: -Better Idle -Easier to set total timing -One less thing to go wrong -Some cars really like it locked better than a curve.
Last edited by Dragula; 09/06/20 12:22 PM.
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Re: Locked out distributor
[Re: madscientist]
#2817800
09/06/20 12:54 PM
09/06/20 12:54 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,298 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,298
Bend,OR USA
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Unlock the distributor and put the correct curve in it. Locking the timing out is wrong. Set the initial, idle timing, at or close to 14 to 16 BTDC and total of 34 to 36 BTDC and let us know how that works for you I use the Mr. Gasket 96B springs (I hope that is the correct part number, maybe I should go look at some on the shelf, it is for GM distributors )
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Locked out distributor
[Re: TonyS451]
#2817802
09/06/20 12:59 PM
09/06/20 12:59 PM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,899 MYRTLE BEACH SOUTH CAROLINA
ek3
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,899
MYRTLE BEACH SOUTH CAROLINA
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Running a locked msd pro billet on my 12.5-1 493 . I have a digital 6 w start retard, but still get starter kickback and hard starting from time to time. Very annoying to say the least, but once started it runs awesome. Contemplating swapping distributor for a non locked version, or perhaps wire a start switch so I can get engine cranking first and then hit ignition. Built as a race car that wants to do some street cruising as well. Any thoughts? re- check the timing delay and fix that or [ unlock it.] ... with 12-1 comp ratio it will need a lot of starter to turn that. . i have used them both ways. a second switch will let you spin it over but, i have seen them hang up as soon as you flip the power on too... i would put in a curve...
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Re: Locked out distributor
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2817813
09/06/20 01:15 PM
09/06/20 01:15 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,418 Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Dragula
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,418
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
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Unlock the distributor and put the correct curve in it. Locking the timing out is wrong. Set the initial, idle timing, at or close to 14 to 16 BTDC and total of 34 to 36 BTDC and let us know how that works for you I use the Mr. Gasket 96B springs (I hope that is the correct part number, maybe I should go look at some on the shelf, it is for GM distributors ) That curve wouldn't even idle in my Hemi. Funny how everyone thinks the same curve works on every engine. Its just a starting point, and you need to work on it to see how the engine responds Each engine likes what it likes, and total and idle will be different engine to engine. We are finding our stroker wedge engines like right around 38* and my buddies 440 that went 6.19 last night has to have 40* in it.... Whats nice about a locked distributor is the idle generally will get better with more timing. To low of idle timing, and the engine will start and stall very quickly, never really getting a strong idle. I find most of my engines like at least 20* in them. Hemis really like 25 at idle. Wedge we find 18 is usually fine. I like to close up the curve as much as possible to where its almost hard to start.
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Re: Locked out distributor
[Re: Dragula]
#2817820
09/06/20 01:39 PM
09/06/20 01:39 PM
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,704 Wichita
GY3
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master
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,704
Wichita
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I use a stock disributor to trigger a 6AL. I put the lightweight Mr. Gasket 925B springs in it. Essentially they act like a start retard as once fired it has all 36° of total timing. Works great!
'63 Dodge 330 11.19 @ 121 mph Pump gas, n/a, through the mufflers on street tires with 3.54's. 3,600 lbs. 10.01 @ 133mph with a 250 shot of nitrous an a splash of race gas. 1.36 60 ft. 3,700 lbs.
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Re: Locked out distributor
[Re: Dragula]
#2817826
09/06/20 02:02 PM
09/06/20 02:02 PM
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Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,081 CA
crackedback
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,081
CA
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Unlock the distributor and put the correct curve in it. Locking the timing out is wrong. Set the initial, idle timing, at or close to 14 to 16 BTDC and total of 34 to 36 BTDC and let us know how that works for you I use the Mr. Gasket 96B springs (I hope that is the correct part number, maybe I should go look at some on the shelf, it is for GM distributors ) That curve wouldn't even idle in my Hemi. Funny how everyone thinks the same curve works on every engine. Its just a starting point, and you need to work on it to see how the engine responds Each engine likes what it likes, and total and idle will be different engine to engine. We are finding our stroker wedge engines like right around 38* and my buddies 440 that went 6.19 last night has to have 40* in it.... Whats nice about a locked distributor is the idle generally will get better with more timing. To low of idle timing, and the engine will start and stall very quickly, never really getting a strong idle. I find most of my engines like at least 20* in them. Hemis really like 25 at idle. Wedge we find 18 is usually fine. I like to close up the curve as much as possible to where its almost hard to start. Agreed, let the engine tell you what it wants.
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Re: Locked out distributor
[Re: Dragula]
#2817999
09/06/20 09:49 PM
09/06/20 09:49 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457 Washington
madscientist
master
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master
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
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Unlock the distributor and put the correct curve in it. Locking the timing out is wrong. Set the initial, idle timing, at or close to 14 to 16 BTDC and total of 34 to 36 BTDC and let us know how that works for you I use the Mr. Gasket 96B springs (I hope that is the correct part number, maybe I should go look at some on the shelf, it is for GM distributors ) That curve wouldn't even idle in my Hemi. Funny how everyone thinks the same curve works on every engine. Its just a starting point, and you need to work on it to see how the engine responds Each engine likes what it likes, and total and idle will be different engine to engine. We are finding our stroker wedge engines like right around 38* and my buddies 440 that went 6.19 last night has to have 40* in it.... Whats nice about a locked distributor is the idle generally will get better with more timing. To low of idle timing, and the engine will start and stall very quickly, never really getting a strong idle. I find most of my engines like at least 20* in them. Hemis really like 25 at idle. Wedge we find 18 is usually fine. I like to close up the curve as much as possible to where its almost hard to start. The issue with locked timing is you have no idea what your total timing is. Unless you set total at WOT. Then the curve won’t be correct if you don’t account for box retard.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: Locked out distributor
[Re: madscientist]
#2818010
09/06/20 10:33 PM
09/06/20 10:33 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,704 Fulton County, PA
CMcAllister
Mr. Helpful
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Mr. Helpful
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,704
Fulton County, PA
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Big lumpy cams in a carbureted deal get locked.
You put the MSD distributor in it with the big bushing and light springs. And still have to make it idle at 1000 for it to stay running. Try to slow it down and the timing backs down, slowing it down even more until it won't run. Or it stalls when you drop it in gear. So you wind the idle up to keep it spinning fast enough to keep some timing in it so it will stay running.
Make a bushing or whatever, to get enough timing in it to idle and it ends up at 25, at least. Well I'm only running 34 and it's all in at 1500. Nothing happens below 3000 in my world, so why bother.
I've done the light springs, make a big bushing, drill the throttle blades, fiddle around with it, and every time I put a few more degrees of base timing in it, it likes it. So...Lock it, set it at 34 or whatever. It will idle at 800 in gear. Response will be sharp and crisp and it sounds happy. Every time.
And I've gone back and tried it the other way because "it's not supposed to be locked and it should have a curve". And the engine tells me "gimme timing".
Anything of mine, or anyone else's who spends the money and lets me, gets a crank trigger and a distributor that just spins the rotor around the cap. Easy, effective, simple.
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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Re: Locked out distributor
[Re: CMcAllister]
#2818015
09/06/20 10:44 PM
09/06/20 10:44 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457 Washington
madscientist
master
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master
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
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Big lumpy cams in a carbureted deal get locked.
You put the MSD distributor in it with the big bushing and light springs. And still have to make it idle at 1000 for it to stay running. Try to slow it down and the timing backs down, slowing it down even more until it won't run. Or it stalls when you drop it in gear. So you wind the idle up to keep it spinning fast enough to keep some timing in it so it will stay running.
Make a bushing or whatever, to get enough timing in it to idle and it ends up at 25, at least. Well I'm only running 34 and it's all in at 1500. Nothing happens below 3000 in my world, so why bother.
I've done the light springs, make a big bushing, drill the throttle blades, fiddle around with it, and every time I put a few more degrees of base timing in it, it likes it. So...Lock it, set it at 34 or whatever. It will idle at 800 in gear. Response will be sharp and crisp and it sounds happy. Every time.
And I've gone back and tried it the other way because "it's not supposed to be locked and it should have a curve". And the engine tells me "gimme timing".
Anything of mine, or anyone else's who spends the money and lets me, gets a crank trigger and a distributor that just spins the rotor around the cap. Easy, effective, simple. What do you consider a big, lumpy cam? Asking because I’m not sure how to understand how to determine that.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: Locked out distributor
[Re: madscientist]
#2818035
09/06/20 11:40 PM
09/06/20 11:40 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,346 fredericksburg,va
cudaman1969
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master
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,346
fredericksburg,va
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My 499 840 hp idled at 650 with instant throttle response in gear, timing all in at idle, but was maybe 10 degrees starting so it wouldn’t kick back. 7320 dominator. No little stuff in this engine, I could put in in gear, get out and walk around and it would just sit there. By the way it’s an engine not a motor, a motor is electric. Forgot to add total was 37, never moved it to see if it was better anywhere else.
Last edited by cudaman1969; 09/07/20 12:09 AM.
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Re: Locked out distributor
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2818071
09/07/20 08:48 AM
09/07/20 08:48 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,296 Chicago, IL
TonyS451
OP
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Chicago, IL
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Thanks for all the great responses. Here’s a little more info:
493 w 12.5-1, Indy -1 heads, Indy single plane, Cam is 268@.050 roller and 1150 Dominator . 5200 8” converter and 4.10 and 295/65 Drag radial. The MSD digital 6 doesn’t have a start retard adjustment , it is supposed to retard timing 20 degrees when the retard function is chosen. It’s either on or off.
I’m seeing pros and cons, and the one pro for sure is that it idles great and very crisp throttle response w locked full timing.
For me the main con is the occasional hard start.
Does anyone have success with the two switch start deal? How about a higher torque starter? Currently using a summit mopar mini starter
2 kids and a dog
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