Borgeson Box upgrade, which should I get
#2801438
07/26/20 05:48 PM
07/26/20 05:48 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,501 Chicago, Illinois
Devil
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I'm going to be doing an entire front end buildup with QA1 parts, new brakes, shocks, and a Borgeson Box. My 71 Challenger has the small selector shaft, and since I'm swapping it out, should I upgrade to the larger one? I'm going to also get the firm feel roller bearing idler arm. So what do you think? Ryan
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Re: Borgeson Box upgrade, which should I get
[Re: GoodysGotaCuda]
#2801753
07/27/20 02:37 PM
07/27/20 02:37 PM
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442 NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch
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With the Borgeson box, is it possible, and has anyone done it, to use a long Pitman arm (not "standard length")... of the length of the long "fast ratio" Pitman arm... regardless of large or small sector shaft size?
Mopar Mitch
"Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers!
Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
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Re: Borgeson Box upgrade, which should I get
[Re: Devil]
#2801755
07/27/20 02:41 PM
07/27/20 02:41 PM
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442 NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch
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Just so you know, the FF "roller bearing" idler arm is an assembly that you have to modify ONLY into a MOOG idler arm... FF's instructions say MOOG ONLY.
I've recently installed the roller bearing assembly into a new idler arm... feels very smooth within its rotation... hope to be driving the car this summer... soon.. with it.
Last edited by Mopar Mitch; 07/30/20 02:43 PM.
Mopar Mitch
"Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers!
Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
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Re: Borgeson Box upgrade, which should I get
[Re: GoodysGotaCuda]
#2802230
07/28/20 05:49 PM
07/28/20 05:49 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696 Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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But the Borgeson box is already 14:1? , meaning adding a fast ratio arm and we are in the under 12:1? range, and at some point getting almost to fast for anything over mph? Besides that, interesting point on price/availability. Strength wise, I can't see enough difference in real world use to matter, IMO.
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: Borgeson Box upgrade, which should I get
[Re: jcc]
#2802283
07/28/20 08:01 PM
07/28/20 08:01 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 25,050 Texas
GoodysGotaCuda
5.7L Hemi, 6spd
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5.7L Hemi, 6spd
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But the Borgeson box is already 14:1? , meaning adding a fast ratio arm and we are in the under 12:1? range, and at some point getting almost to fast for anything over mph? Besides that, interesting point on price/availability. Strength wise, I can't see enough difference in real world use to matter, IMO. I find the Borg box to be quite slow and will be trying the fast arms when I tear into the front end for some reason.. I have a 1.5:1 steering quickener that goes between the steering wheel and the box, but the fab work to put it in is not something I want to deal with on a completed car. Swapping arms is much quicker.
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Re: Borgeson Box upgrade, which should I get
[Re: Devil]
#2802554
07/29/20 03:01 PM
07/29/20 03:01 PM
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442 NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch
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For some comparison, the T/A box with its longer Fast Ratio Pitman arm, as well as the C-body longer ilder arm (aka Fast Ratio idler arm... used for steering radius correction L-R), has a ratio of 12.7:1. I absolutely love it... and I also have a smaller steering wheel 11.5" diameter to further quicken the response. This combination makes the steering superb... its not too fast at all in any manner... street, highway, autocross/road course... it's great! In fact, I wish I could make it a little faster... I've tried a yet smaller steering wheel of 10" diameter... too small.. hands get criss-crossed too easily when making fast L-R-L-R slalom manuevers.. but definitely faster steering yet!
I've never yet driven a Mopar with the Borgenson ps box, although they are supposed to be the same as a late model Jeep Grand Cherokee, if I'm correct, and that steering is OK from my personal experience. The thing I like most about that box is the lighter weight.. taken from the front end.
The Bergman coupler is the only way to go.
I can't wait until I start driving my Challenger ... real soon this summer.. with my FF Stage-3 T/A box... most curious about the firmness, etc. Everyone I know who has a Stage-2 box said they should have gone stiffer.. such as Stage-3.... I'll let you all know of my findings.
Last edited by Mopar Mitch; 07/30/20 02:44 PM.
Mopar Mitch
"Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers!
Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
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Re: Borgeson Box upgrade, which should I get
[Re: Mopar Mitch]
#2802586
07/29/20 04:16 PM
07/29/20 04:16 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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BigBlockMopar
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Been daily driving with a 1st gen Borgeson box now for some 7 years already on my '73 Dart. (How time flies.) I'm still very pleased with the handling, steering effort and number of turns. I'm using the stock steering wheel on my car. I occasionally have the car up around 90mph and it's as predictable as can be.
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Re: Borgeson Box upgrade, which should I get
[Re: Devil]
#2802683
07/29/20 10:10 PM
07/29/20 10:10 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491 Lethbridge, AB, Canada
dangina
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I've talked to a few people about a Fast Ratio arm and the Borgeson box, and they said it would be too twitchy at any sort of speed. So I'm going to start out with the stock arms as of right now. And as for the coupler. I plan on getting this Bergman no-cut adapter. https://bergmanautocraft.com/product/direct-fit-steering-coupler/ I have the boregson box, fast ratio arms (with idler bearing upgrade) , firm feel steering sector support kit, with the bergman coupler in my 71 runner (my setup for the past 5 years now) - Driven alot of miles with it on the highway, autox with it - Its not twitchy at all - actually I find it not responsive enough which is why I will be upgrading to a rack and pinion setup this winter - you guys can pm me if you want to buy my setup after i pull it out when the snow starts to fly....
Last edited by dangina; 07/29/20 10:12 PM.
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Re: Borgeson Box upgrade, which should I get
[Re: BigBlockMopar]
#2802696
07/29/20 10:51 PM
07/29/20 10:51 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696 Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
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Bitopia
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Let me try to keep score here:
Standard OEM PS box is 16:1 " " " " with "C" fast arm is 12.7: 1 " " " " " " " " with 1.5 quickner is 8.3:1 ?? Borg Box is 14.7:1 " " with "C" arm fast arm is approx 11.6: 1 guessing
IMO, no ratio is too fast for autocross, at over 100? on track, too fast of ratio can be tiresome/twitchy in certain cases, on the street, it can be both, this only an opinion
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: Borgeson Box upgrade, which should I get
[Re: Devil]
#2802702
07/29/20 11:38 PM
07/29/20 11:38 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 232 Alberta Canada
PossessedDuster
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I have the Borgeson box in my Belvedere and it fits and drives very well. I also used the coupler from Bergman which also fit very well however I have had a persistent and annoying hiss when just off center of the box in slight turns or sitting at a red light without the wheel perfectly centered. I talked to Bergman and Borgeson and was told by Borgeson's tech that their coupler has a urethane section in the center to stop hydraulic noise from traveling through the column.
My box was put in about a year ago so not sure what generation it would be considered.
Last edited by PossessedDuster; 07/29/20 11:39 PM.
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Re: Borgeson Box upgrade, which should I get
[Re: dangina]
#2803025
07/30/20 06:31 PM
07/30/20 06:31 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 25,050 Texas
GoodysGotaCuda
5.7L Hemi, 6spd
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5.7L Hemi, 6spd
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I've talked to a few people about a Fast Ratio arm and the Borgeson box, and they said it would be too twitchy at any sort of speed. So I'm going to start out with the stock arms as of right now. And as for the coupler. I plan on getting this Bergman no-cut adapter. https://bergmanautocraft.com/product/direct-fit-steering-coupler/ I have the boregson box, fast ratio arms (with idler bearing upgrade) , firm feel steering sector support kit, with the bergman coupler in my 71 runner (my setup for the past 5 years now) - Driven alot of miles with it on the highway, autox with it - Its not twitchy at all - actually I find it not responsive enough which is why I will be upgrading to a rack and pinion setup this winter - you guys can pm me if you want to buy my setup after i pull it out when the snow starts to fly.... Interesting, I was hoping the fast arms would be enough. I think for my application, street car, they probably would be. My previous daily driver was a Wrangler with hydro-assist steering, it was remarkably touchy at speed. After a week or two, I didn't notice it and grew to prefer it.
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Re: Borgeson Box upgrade, which should I get
[Re: GoodysGotaCuda]
#2803109
07/30/20 10:08 PM
07/30/20 10:08 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491 Lethbridge, AB, Canada
dangina
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
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I've talked to a few people about a Fast Ratio arm and the Borgeson box, and they said it would be too twitchy at any sort of speed. So I'm going to start out with the stock arms as of right now. And as for the coupler. I plan on getting this Bergman no-cut adapter. https://bergmanautocraft.com/product/direct-fit-steering-coupler/ I have the boregson box, fast ratio arms (with idler bearing upgrade) , firm feel steering sector support kit, with the bergman coupler in my 71 runner (my setup for the past 5 years now) - Driven alot of miles with it on the highway, autox with it - Its not twitchy at all - actually I find it not responsive enough which is why I will be upgrading to a rack and pinion setup this winter - you guys can pm me if you want to buy my setup after i pull it out when the snow starts to fly.... Interesting, I was hoping the fast arms would be enough. I think for my application, street car, they probably would be. My previous daily driver was a Wrangler with hydro-assist steering, it was remarkably touchy at speed. After a week or two, I didn't notice it and grew to prefer it. for those wondering my steering from lock to lock is 1.8 turns - Around the city and highway no problem feels like any other car - its the quick turning in autox which feels like manual steering - it can't keep up (its a new saginaw from day one - not a used one) - I played with different bore diamaters on the pump same thing - which is why I want to go with a power steering setup - Part of it may be my car being a bbody with a big old big block up front.
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Re: Borgeson Box upgrade, which should I get
[Re: dangina]
#2803319
07/31/20 02:41 PM
07/31/20 02:41 PM
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442 NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch
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NW Chicago suburban area
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Dangina -- Thanks very much for the input on the 1.8 turns lock-to-lock... that's great!... but if it can't handle quick autocross manuevers... then something is wrong and that would definitely NOT be the way to go with the Borgesnon box.
You're saying that with the longer fast-ratio arms the steering quickens more to become 1.8 lock-to-lock, BUT, with those longer arms it CANNOT keep up with fast action LRLRLR steering response.
So, it makes me wonder, is the Borgenson box acceptable on a pylon autocross ... with the "standard length arms"... in quick plyon LRLRLR manuevers without any slow-down/resistance?
Has anyone else following this thread had experience using the Borgenson box through a pylon autocross... with required fast-response LRLRLR problems? That problem is known with ALL ps pumps of Federal-design ... NOT with the Saginaw design... and further with hi-winding rpms.
Feedback?
Mopar Mitch
"Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers!
Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
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