Sold a used item online. Value just under $1K. My asking price included shipping in US. Was "as is", no returns, paid for 11/20 by paypal, shipped 11/21 UPS, received sign for 11/25. I packed in original OEM box. Sent to a Suite address in NJ. Buyer had an Asian looking name. on 12/26 4:00am, I received a message stating item arrived, with damage, including 4 pics. Item looks almost non repairable. Box has some exterior damage.

Buyer does not know i insured item for $800, at my expense.

Today he wants one of three options, full refund, a $500 credit, or a Paypal dispute.

Not sure it matters, I wonder if buyer reshipped the item, its out of the country, might have been opened in customs, which accounts for the time delay,and the odd contact hours of messaging.

Who is on the hook here?

UPS always says item is not claimable as it was not packed correctly, and if dropped out of a truck, I would agree.

First things first ... what does UPS say ?

well, if he reshipped it overseas then it's on him.

If they reshipped it then its their problem, are they stating its from shipping or that you sent it that way?

Have UPS pick up the damaged item to confirm the package was not re-shipped.

If you have a good moral compass you should pay up other wise you are just a shady little rat!

moparpollack , did you not read the post? He was contacted a month after the item was received. How long do you think you should be responsible for supposed shipping damage? If I ship you something and you wait a month after getting it to complain you own it and that has nothing to do with a moral compass.

Oooooooops .... jsta lil BRAIN FADE on my part.

Customer has the widget for OVER A MONTH and then informs you of supposed damage ?

PayPal and UPS and YOU should tell this turkey to POUND SAND

jcc...Do an on line search and look up UPS damage claims. I shipped a Marshall combo amp to a tech who is a member here. They totally destroyed the amp. It was well packed but it looks like it was dropped off a cliff. The impact was so hard that the speaker magnet came off the speaker. Good luck as I hope you don't have to go against UPS. It is very rare to beat them.

t ..., beating UPS ? Rotsa ruck ! They will WEAR YOU OUT by jerking you around.

They lost a set of cast pistons on me and I jsta gave up.

I only deal with Fedex and USPS now

Buddy of mine had a transmission shipped to him by UPS. It was in a crate made from 2X4s and 1/2" plywood. It had had a forklift fork stuck through the crate and completely through the bellhousing. UPS tried to tell him it was that way when they picked it up. He did finally get paid, but it took almost 2 years.

Doc is correct.

I bought a guitar from a well known collector in California. He shipped it to my house in NJ. It had a broken headstock when it arrived. I called him to let him know and then I called UPS and they sent a guy to my house to take pictures and inspect the packaging and damage to the guitar.

They initially refused the claim. It took him about a year to get that settled. KNOW this. The purchaser of the insurance has to deal with the claim. He was a stand up guy and immediately sent me a identical guitar. (he had 4 at the time)

The UPS adjuster has to go to YOUR customers house to see the packaging and item. At least that's how it worked in my case.

1. Does the damage in the 4 pictures coincide with the box damage???
2. More information would be helpful: IE: what was it that was shipped, weight etc.
3. You say you shipped it in the OEM box, sometimes those are not sutable for shipping as they are sometimes crated or otherwise packed.
4. If re-shipped, opened by customs etc. pictures of the box should clearly show that.
5. Have UPS and Paypal get involved as already suggested.

remind me to never ship anything to you

It looks like he received it and then took a month to complain?

You say you took insurance on it so start a claim with UPS for the damage and see where it goes from there. All the experiences I've had with that it's the seller that needs to submit the claim and they're also the one who gets the check. I don't know how long you have to do that but if they blew it by waiting a month tough luck to the seller.

1. I just heard today about what the buyer is thinking as to resolution, meaning i'm assuming UPS is not reachable until Monday.
2. I understand the original box may not be the best container, but it looked fine, and was the original shipping box.
3. The items were two separately boxed and joined 12" speakers, package weight 54lbs
4. According to pics, there was obvious exterior box damage.
5. both speaker cones appeared to be almost completely destroyed, they are a plastic/carbon fiber material, but how exactly is not clear
6. I do have pics of perfect functional speakers pre shipping, but not sure that proves the way they went in the box.
7. The time delay seems to me to be buyers biggest unexplained hurdle.
8. I get UPS is not my friend in this matter.

What can I expect to be Paypals typical response before I start opening cans of worms here?

PayPal is on the side of the party receiving, NOT you. They will probably just reverse the charge & then you just got stuck. As far as UPS paying the claim, even though you had it insured, you are SOL as they will just say "improper packaging." If the claim was under $100.00, then they would probably just pay you, but since it's more, it's "improper packaging." FedEx is the SAME way - they are no better than UPS. They are so big & so powerful, they just do not care. Been there & done that. I do not take PayPal. If you take a credit card, then they will listen to your side of the story - it is not all one-sided like PayPal is. Good luck.

You need to confirm a few things, and these are the FIRST things you need to do -

The NJ address - was this a shipping company that forwards parcels overseas?

The signature - in NJ, I assume. Was this an agent for the buyer, or an agent for the shipper?

Did it go overseas? If it did, you are NOT responsible for the final condition, nor is UPS. Your responsibility, as did UPS's, ended at the shipping address in NJ. Anything beyond that is the responsibility of the shipper.

Domestically, UPS sOcks and you will not win. You have better chances winning the Mega-Million lottery. PayPal has a tendency to believe the buyer over the seller. In both cases, though, it should be noted that the complaint was issued a MONTH after it was 'signed' for. UPS and PayPal will most likely deny payment or coverage, and really, there is no need for you to cover it. For all you know, it could have arrived safely (assuming a true domestic delivery, but doubtful) and the new owners had a party with drunk revelers and the speakers were damaged there. Or on stage, when the lead guitar member smashed his guitar over the speakers. You just don't know.

I agree that the real issue is the condition of the package on the date it was signed for and in that location. If the package was forwarded after that, not your problem and no way for you to prove it was or wasn't. The loop hole likely used by UPS and every other carrier which works in your favor here is the delivery signature. Somewhere buried in the fine print is boiler plate text saying that the signature is an acknowledge that the package was received in acceptable condition. If you want to make a claim for shipping damage you have to do so when you receive the damaged package. Obviously doing so a month later is suspect.

Pics of the items before being packaged is great but like you said doesn't prove their in box condition. Pics of the final box before it leaves your possession could help prove that any dents / holes / whatever happened later.

It doesn't really go to your original question but my practice is to pack things with the expectation that they will fall off moving trucks. Too many minimum wage, minimum intelligence, minimum give a damn bodies in the process. When they run full truck loads between sorting locations they run a conveyer belt in to the trailer and the load gets hand stacked tetris style. Just one opportunity for it to fall on the floor and / or get kicked around.

to reply to the people who say UPS always wins i will say not always.
i will keep my story as short as possible to not hijack this thread.

about 8 years ago i bought a almost new full carbon fiber bicycle, including the wheels, at 80% off what it should have been worth.
it was packed by a bike shop then it was put in a wooden crate. when it was shipped UPS opened the box inspected and approved of the pack job, charged me a fee for that and shipped it insured for $3K. at the end of the line UPS drove over the bike with a truck. there were tire tracks over the crate when it was delivered. the truck must have been fully loaded because the crank, part between the pedals was bent significantly.
they initially claimed the usual bike was packed wrong. i informed them to be insured for anything over $500 THEY had to pack the item, this was the rule at the time to get insurance at the $$$ amount it was insured for. if they wanted to fight payment i would have no problem going to court. note...... i have a old HS classmate that works at a law firm that represents politicians. i didn't tell UPS this info.
UPS said good luck so my friend filed a lawsuit asking for damages, and punitive damages to cover attorney fees.
when i finally got my day in court. at the initial hearing UPS argued it wasn't packed properly. my attorney countered to insure item for the high $$$ it was insured at THEY had to pack the item. we produced a receipt with the additional fee i paid to do so and also showed the bent crank to the judge. after a few rounds of debates the judge held the bent crank up and asked the UPS attorneys what amount of packing would be required to prevent this damage. he also mentioned in his opinion you could drop the crank off a 20 story building and it wouldn't bend a crank like it was. he then gave a temporary recess for the attorneys to talk. after 20 min of discussion between attorneys, my attorney informed i would have my $$$ in a week.

This is why I always take things to a UPS store, packed but still open and then pay them to package it and insure it. This way when they claim improper packaging I can say, well you packaged it and were paid to do so. Happened to me before, took some arguing but I got the money for it and it was shipped overseas.

I've read that UPS will still initially deny the claim... the excuse is that most UPS Stores are franchises and not actually owned by UPS, so the store is responsible.

Yeah I'm pretty sure the store paid me. Whether he got his money back I don't know but it's not my concern.
Actually this particular transaction wasn't for damage but rather theft. The buyer in England claimed when he opened the box there was just bricks. The product was in there when it left my hands at the UPS store as witnessed by the clerk/owner so...

Holly chit .. through all this - what did you recover ?

i got a check from UPS for $3k. this is what the bike was insured for and what the bicycle was really worth.
i do believe, my friend never told me the exact amount, the law firm got $2K for legal fees.

So that was a settlement and not a judgement? No punitive damages ?

I believe recovering the legal fees would be considered the "punitive" damages. Am I right?

Punitive damages are damages assessed in order to punish the defendant for outrageous conduct and/or to reform or deter the defendant and others from engaging in conduct similar to that which formed the basis of the lawsuit. Paying for the other side's legal fees is compensatory damages, what it cost to make the plaintiff whole again.

Sonny ... for as much as what T-guy went through P damages should have been ANOTHER 3 large on top of legal fees.

T did everything right and the UPS management was out to ROB T out of a legit claim

How bad was this box damage ??? Enough to cause the damage to the speaker cones??? and If so why would the buyer not open the boxes immediately for inspection??
I'm smelling horsesh-t or a scam here. As previously mentioned, anything could have happened during that time
At this point I'd roll the dice and tell him to pound sand

The damage in the pic only showed a couple inch hole, and you can almost make out the backside of the speaker. It does not correspond to the the complete destruction in his other pics of both speakers cones. I'll see if I can attach a pic Mon.

Thanks guys, all the viewpoints have been helpful.

Not to detail this thread but:
There was a UPS truck that broke down in front of my house a few weeks ago while making a delivery (across the street from me). After sitting there for about 30 minutes, a Penski Rental truck showed up, and backed up to about 3' behind the now dead UPS truck. Both truck drivers proceeded to "move" the packages on the UPS truck to the rental truck. At more then a few points, my wife and I watched packages flying from the inside of one truck to the inside of the other truck (a distance of easily more then 6'), but both drivers were in the same truck. A few of the packages were picked up off the street and were placed into the truck they missed in the fly though process. I must admit, there were several packages that were handled pretty delicately, but probably less then 20% of what was on the original truck. The entire package swap took about a 1/2 hour, it was a smaller UPS truck, but it must have been pretty full. Upon completion of the package swap, the UPS driver got into the rental truck and drove away, presumably to make the day's deliveries. The guy that was driving the rental truck got into the UPS truck, and drove it away, with a trail of liquid following it up around the turn.

My wife commented on how the drivers just through the packages from the one truck to the other with little regard as to what may have been in the packages.

My shop used to be next door to our local UPS hub. I often repaired their aluminum 2 wheel dollies. Part of the repair was to make sure they were delivered to the hub, and I was to stop in the office with a receipt and get paid. Very prompt payment, always. On several occasions I witnessed the truck loading process. All I will say is when you ship packages, pack them like you would expect them to get thrown into the truck, especially if they are light weight, or small. At the time, our local hub had 43 trucks. The packages arrived on semis (often with pup trailers) from 3 different locations, and the packaged were unloaded from the semis, sorted, and loaded onto all 43 trucks in about 6 hours time with about 6 employees. Christmas time was worse (but at least there were extra people). How much care would you expect to see? Gene

About 20 years ago I had the opportunity to observe the trucks being unloaded onto a belt and the packages picked off the belt... yes, they do throw them. No time or space to set them down gently. I'm sure the process is not slower than it was, too.

I also got to put on a set of "browns" and spend the morning with a driver in his package car (what UPS calls the delivery step vans). That driver was really earning his pay that day, and glad to have a helper. It's not an easy job physically, especially with the red tag (70+ lb) packages.

However, I would not expect to see a tire track printed on a box, or a forklift tine punched through it!

Yea, the lift fork through the package, and a tire mark across one is a bit extreme. Having seen how the stuff is handled at a hub, can you imagine how things go at an airport? In bad weather? There are reasons these things are kept out of site for most people.

The shipping industry is not the only profession where the details of the real processes are generally kept out of the average persons site. I can think of a lot of stuff that is normally done during the course of a day in many professions that I really don't want to know about. Often its better to understand that there are times things don't go according to the plan, and its usually much better if we really don't get the know all the little details of the plan and accept sometimes things go wrong. The problems occur when we don't want to pay for things that go wrong with other peoples plans, and they expect us to. Gene

in my opinion you are correct.

my case was SETTLED OUT OF COURT so terminology differences are irrelevant.
the only thing i know 100% is i got a check for $3K.
my lawyer friend told me the legal bill was taken care of, it was paid by UPS. i didn't have to worry about paying that. my friend told me there was about 15 billable hours mostly filing motions and phone calls between lawyers , he told me that while i bought him a expensive lunch after i got the check. i never got any exact details on what was required to handle the case and what exactly the legal firm got paid..

I've never been around an airport freight ramp but I'm thinking it's a way different thing from a truck loading dock. I'm thinking packages thrown and kicked in to those airplane shaped containers rather than thrown and kicked in to the plane like luggage. Some kinda effort made to balance the load because a nose heavy cargo plane is a way different thing than a nose heavy van trailer. There's also the FAA angle and the real cost of mishaps. Bump your cargo handling vehicle in to a trailer, not that big of a deal even if you put the forks through the wall. Bump in to an aircraft and it's a huge deal even if you don't scuff the paint. I had a FedEx call center as a customer for several years and heard some of the stories.

Having driven a forklift for a few years I'll just say that punching a fork in to a box happens more than you want to know. As for tire tracks, it's less common. Most generic freight trailers have barn doors and the driver needs to open them before backing in to the dock. If the pallets on the tail are light enough and not properly secured they can and do end up on the ground.

Remember the old Samsonite commercials with the suitcase in the gorilla cage? I try to keep that in mind when packing boxes.

I've had two incidents of parts damage in shipping, first one was a pair of fibreglas doors I bought from Herb McCandless years ago, Roadway freight delivered them to my shop in SO CA. The package had a forklift tonque, probe, lift, size and shape hole on one side and it went through one of the doors
I called Herb to let him know and Roadway ended up paying me for the total package price of both doors and they took the damaged door and I got to keep the other one
The second claim was on a used crankshaft B motor 4.25 stroke crankshaft that I had bought from Ohio Crankshaft company a long time ago, I bought six now ones and the one used one, three new RB and 3 new B and the one used B one for me. I ended up using three of the new ones on customers builds before unpacking the used one I bought for myself. I didn't notice it was damaged on the rear flywheel mounting flange, it was bent a bunch , before taking it to the machine shop along with the rods, pistons and so on for balancing. The shop called me when they noticed it and I got it back and gave them one of then ew ones for my build. I called the freight company about filing a claim, I think it was UPS ground, and they told me that it was insured for $100.00
I called Ohio Crankshaft and told them about it being bent and ask why they had only insured them for $100.00 each, I sent it back to them and they replaced it with a new one and paid for shipping it to me for no out of pocket expenses to me
I had ask them to send me another new one and insured it for $1300.00 but they no, ship it back and we will take care of it
I had paid right around $400.00 each for the new ones and $200.00 for the used one
I haven't been so lucky on new defective engine parts that had failed in the motor, which has been more than one

I have had airline baggage handlers crack not one, but two Samsonite suitcases over the years. Nary a gorilla in sight

UPS has stated today a shipper has 90 Days to report a claim for damage, that seems strange to me.

But from what I read here as to the UPS's track record of actually paying for a claim, they could make it 2 years, since they never pay anyway.

About maybe 15-20 years ago I shipped a 1970 C-body dash pad to a guy through UPS bubble wrapped 3 layers, double hard foam cover and wrapped twice in cardboard and then boxed. Got a call from the guy that the box showed up bent into a 'V' shape with a forklift tire down the center. UPS said they would not over the claim as it was not properly packaged to prevent damage is shipment. How the heck do you package a product to survive a 4 ton forklift running over it!? After about 18 packages being lost, damaged, ruined or delivered late (one was 6 weeks late), I gave up on the and have been Using FedEx for the last 15 years and have had only one problem out of a couple hundred packages shipped. I have turn order down if the buyer insisted on using UPS. Plus FedEx is cheaper too.

I today requested buyer by ebay message forward a contact phone number to arrange a UPS inspection of the entire shipment at the shipped to address..
5 hours later I got an official Ebay buyer "request for return" shipping label.

I declined, not going to happen.

Buyer is building the case that has been suspected, item is in China?, ie it was reshipped and likely damaged beyond my control or any responsibility.


Well see. Happy New Year.

Welcome to the new world, where its not my fault, so an so did it.....

Quote

Buyer is building the case that has been suspected, item is in China?, ie it was reshipped and likely damaged beyond my control or any responsibility.

If you have proof of that I don't see how they ( paypal or Ebay) could go against you

I don't have definitive proof yet, but buyer today began a Papal dispute action, and has "offered to settle for 50% of the original deal. He still has not forwarded a contact phone number to have UPS do an onsite package investigation visit. I suspect he can't.

I might offer a $100 just to make this go away.

Guess next boilerplate added to sales, "no claims allowed if item leaves shipped to address"?

Edit: Since I "declined" to allow a return and full refund, he has now left an ebay "negative" feedback.
Guess playing nice just ended.

His name FWIW "Yizhang Wu"

Don't give in if you are in the right.

Chiming in late here,
He is unable - for whatever reason - to provide you with information that would allow you to recover any costs for him via your insurance. Therefore he cannot be made whole. From there the decision becomes how much do you settle on.

- You should be on solid ethical grounds stating that you can pay him back anything that your insurance will give you. In order for you to recover ANYTHING, you need the damaged article back, or a UPS inspection at address of delivery. Standard procedure.
- If you stick to that, you are being fair.
- If he can't or doesn't comply, I would have no sympathy whatsoever.
- The buyer must participate fairly too and provide due diligence IF he wants to be made whole.
- If he can't provide it he does not have a right to full compensation.

From a business standpoint, I agree with your approach of a low offer. But now, he's already given you a black eye w negative feedback.
Game over?

My example:
- One day I got a purchase delivered, with damage to the box that the part couldn't possibly have survived. I kept the delivery guy there while I took photos and called the seller. We agreed I would refuse the shipment, and the shipper returned the package to the seller. The seller got the package and processed the insurance claim on his end. The seller was easily able to honor that whole process and shipped me a new part. This was a fragile $800 part.

Cheers,
- Art

^ this is 100% spot on. Even though I’ve had idiots here on moparts try and tell me it’s not this way. It is. No PayPal in about 15 years for me. Never, ever again. Was involved in ups claim that took about a year to resolve on a busted e body console I sold. Some insurance company paid 100 right off the bat. Ups held their 180 about a year for no apparent reason, they just did. Buyer was cool and we jumped through all the hoops. That was maybe 12 years ago, assuming it’s the same or worse now.

Oh yes they can...

I have had two issues with returns and both were settled in my favor. One was a radio that supposedly arrived with a broken touch screen and one was an instrument panel. I had pictures of both prepackaging and after packaging. No doubt they left me in good condition and packed right. So EBay does protect the seller as well as the buyer.

I miss DHL domestic.

BEST shipping service - ever.

Well PayPal pretty much closed this dispute.
They yesterday issued a finding of "Deny" regarding buyers claim.

Strange IMO, in Paypal's first contact with me they required a reply to contest the claim within 10 days, or they would rule in favor of the claim, then take 45 days to get here.

And I'm outside the UPS claim window for shipping damages by 10 days..

What they also did not mention in that first contact, my reply would be a "one and done", meaning I had effectively no avenue to followup with any rebuttal or more evidence if it became necessary. So a warning, if in a Paypal dispute, don't hold anything back.

My guess, the buyer reshipped the items to China and they got trashed, and he could not make any case otherwise, and dropped it.

I surprised, and glad.

What guitar did you get? I've noticed that guitars have appreciated far better than cars over the last 20 years.

Who did you get it from (if you don't mind me asking)? I know a few of those guys out here - started an Amp company with one of them and Ronnie Montrose years ago.

Now you need to get ebay to erase the negative review.

Paypal sucks. But it's tough to operate without it, unless you just have yard sales and go to swap meets. Most people advise, and I agree, have a separate checking account linked to PP and only keep a few dollars in there. When paid, transfer it immediately. When paying, transfer just enough to cover the purchase. Don't leave any money laying around for them to snatch.

Thanks, that is all good and helpful advice.

It was a Custom Shop Jackson Rhoads. 1 of 25 that were made for members of the JCF (Jackson Charvel Forum).
The fellas name is Dave Ingram. Awesome guy to buy from or do trades.

What city was Ingram from?

edit nevermind, I worked with a Bob Ingram from Miami who used to gig with David Crosby, I see the collector was from California.

Lots of unsuprising stories here.

At our small business,we instruct vendors to NOT ship via UPS for any reason. Those who do so anyways, get their shipment refused & sent back to them.