Ok guys, i need to call on the brain trust here badly.

Situation: We grenanded the planetaries/sun shell- everything at first race this year, but did not break through the case.
We are over 700 hp at the crank, 3450 lbs, ladder bar, 4.30 or 4.56 , 12 inch slick , 727.
While trannyt was being built we got a new aluminum race driveshaft, all 1350 yokes, new slicks, new dual adjustable front shocks.

We go to test last week- not good.
No leaks to start, burnout look and sounds good - no shift lag.
Stage, no leaks.
Car leaves ok, we have some tire slippage thats significant but, expected that with new tires and new dual adjustable front shocks.
Driver reports he feels a little lag on 2/3 shift, i look at data- sure enough, a little narrow rpm spike at shift point.
we adjust tire pressures, shocks, cool car, make another hit- burnout looks and sounds fine, no fluid leaks, car leaves better, 60ft drops, i see a little puff of smoke down track- crap.

Check car, can see where a tiny bit of fluid has hit header just before collector, but no fluid drips, nothing puddled anywhere.
Look at data, rpm spike at 2/3 shift is higher, still very narrow/quick, think i "might" be seeing one start on 1/2 shift.
Coo car, adjust ties, front shocks.

go to make a pass, burn out sounds good and i'm really listening to the 2/3 shift- its instant.
Pulls up to stage- dumps fluid, i pull him back, look under car- nothing dripping, pull him up, dumps fluid, i wave him off and clean up our mess ( always try to clean up any mess we make when allowed)
Go back to car- cannot find leak, cant find anything pooling, can see where its been "slung" on headers and can feel some inside bell housing.
I look at data- 2/3 shift on burnout was perfect ( no load of course) >
I check fluid again- its freaking a quart high!!!!!
Load car against converter and then check again at idle in neutral, its still high but i'm not getting the same levels two checks in a row- puzzled.
I drain almost a quart, cheak levels, right on the money, check it again, pint low, check it again, pint high- did this 6 freaking time without touching anything else, its varying +/- a pint- we idle at 12-1300.

All cleaned up underneath, i'm thinking car was somehow overfull at its splashing up the vent under negative g of stopping after burn-out- though fluid was check many times before going to track.
We go back up, burnout looks/sounds good, we stage the car, car puks fluid just as tree starts coming down, i run to hand slap the quarter panel to stop car- its gone, best 60 ft of the day, puff of smoke on other end, lost et, i check ground, its tranny fluid, clean it up, head to pits, pull data- over ran the motor at 2/3 shift to 7450, it was poppint on the rev limit at 7. its no longer a slip/spike, but a wide area overrun, driver had to lift to get shift engauged, 1/2 shift now has a definite slip in it, right at 500 rpm spike.
Load car, come home- care a danger to us, others.

Pull tranny, its definitely coming from bell housing area- pump seal good, converter to pump seal good, vent clean and dry, pressure tested converter at 100 lbs- no leaks.

So, we have a shift issue, we have a leaking issue and we have a fluid level issue .

I did notice that the seal to converter snout wear pattern does not show the converter moving in and out linearly but as if converter may be wobbling just a bit.

Other than that, we are freaking stumped!!
We loaded it up with fluid and let it sit almost upright with converter held for 24 hours- no leak.

Im not sure the leak/shift/fluid levels are all related, but not sure they aren't either.

So, long post in order to hopefully answer all the questions the brain trust would ask.

I have considered a crack in pump that high fluid level helped cover.
I have considered bad pump
I have checked everything i could think of till last night.

This evening in going to check flexplate, bolt converter to it and check runout .
We have a points race next week and, i'm honestly just freaking stumped.

so, its time to call on the think tank braintrust- thanks guys for any help, suggestions, things to check i have missed.
This is a 6.41 car.


rusty

Air up the converter. Rig a cap out of PVC to seal the snout. Then spray with soapy water. Ive had them crack at the base. The 2/3 slip is in the front clutch. Check seal rings on the pump, piston seals in the high clutch. Clutch frictions and steels.
Doug

thanks DVW : I put converter in a tub of water to cover weld on circumference and then water around snout weld area- everything covered, 100 lbs air pressure, no bubbles, tried variad air pressures for differing lengths of time and had drained all the fluid i could - cant find a stinking leak and i was sure hoping it was the converter.

I would check the case for cracks cased by the previous problem. The fluid level changing like that is strange. Verify that the vent in the pump is not plugged or restricted somehow. Also when using a deep pan, I usually maintain the fluid level at the "ADD" mark with the fluid warm, just to stay away from an overfilled issue. You could also go ahead and plug the factory vent, put a vent in the back of the case and put a puke tank on it. Shouldn't need it, but some guys use them to be safe. If it still puts fluid out in the bell, then you just have to find that leak.

The 2/3 flare is a timing issue. You can pull a few springs out of the high gear drum to allow that to come on sooner, verify and/or tighten the high gear clearance or shim or increase the spring load in the servo to hold it on for a tick longer. Changing the band adjustment a bit may also be used. This will be trial and error, but as you can see, having data is about the best money you can spend. It "sees" stuff that you can't see or hear.

thanks Cm: Im crazy OCD on fluid levels and i've always been considered good at troubleshooting problems but, this one has me pulling what little hair i have left out.
ONLY explanation in can think of on fluid levels is something causing a fluid buildup, then release- checked trans cooler, checked lines- no joy.
Trans builder checks clutch packs with air- says they "slammed right in" and, good luck! ( that didn't sit well with me btw)
Could an overfull situation cause us to lose those drum seals- even if tranny wasn't "actually" full but having a fluid flow issue?

I have checked case externally for cracks well- nothing, but haven't pulled it down yet.
I even checked dip stick tube and stick against a stock one - even though this one has been used for years without issue, just to make sure the levels corresponded- no problem there either.

I,ve never had any problem i couldn't figure out in a few days before- not in mechanics, not in the pro audio world, not in building houses- i even figured out how to keep my wife from being mad at me!!

A good transmission building book should tell you exactly where to calibrate your dip stick inside the transmission so you can accurately mark your stick during a rebuild. I know the powerglide books do.

Overfull fluid can become aerated and foamy. Once it has air in it, there's a problem. Air compresses, fluid does not. Why I run the level a touch low with the deep pan.

Maybe you can explain the wife thing to me sometime. I've never figured that one out.

Sounds like it is too late since you pulled it but when I have a trans problem the first thing I do before I pull it is check the pressures. Low pressure might be causing the clutches to apply slow.

Since it flared I bet you have some smoked clutches in the high pack. I would have that thing scattered all over the work bench if it was mine.

Tightening the band might help but like I said that flare couldn't have been good on the clutches.

Nothing when checking the fluid indicated foam, being foamy.

Wife: Take out trash, pick up clothes, mow yard and- stay in shop! grin.

I was going to ask if you had to kill her to not be mad at you
JUST KIDDING
We have been married for 53 yrs, it took my several months after getting married to figure out that I could keep her happy one or two weeks out of the month, but no way I could keep her smiling and grinning all month
I finally decided I wasn't going to worry so much about her being happy all the time and I focused on keeping my self happy instead
I know I'm not God, I can't perform miracles

good one Cab!
Congratulations on a long marriage! 53 years man- that's truly wonderful Cab.

I'm very fortunate as well , my wife is very understanding, demands little and we too got most of our stuff sorted early .
You just gave a good key to marriage as well as life, can't care for others without caring foreself as well, if we don't have ourselves sorted, its not going to go well in other areas either.

Now if i can get this tranny sorted, i'm thinking of buy it flowers, just not sure if they are to win it over or for its burial!

anyone here running Cope or A&A built units ?
I used all a&a parts in the duster but we may need to just buy a built unit for the 65 .

I have a CRT 904 in my Duster, just a low-10s SB footbrake car, Lupo 6000 stall, best trans that's been in it.

Thanks Topside!

Keith at 727specialists will build you a great trans too.

Something in the valve body is not working correctly is what I think, mismatched fluid distribution
verify the correct fluid level first though, with the tranny pan off and the dipstick tube and dips stick installed look to see where the full marks is in relation to the bottom edge of the tranny case, if the full mark is above that run the fluid level so it is barely on that dipstick no higher than the add mark

Thanks Cab!

The level in relation to the transmission body is what i always wondered about also. So, i assume you mean cold level doing it like this? Good info.

Funny thing is: stock dipstick in stock tube has full mark up in the tube almost an inch above top of case- but thats for hot fluid.

i had that problem with a trans i built could never get the oil level right removed the trans and used a a500 gasket under the gov support it was not venting right. that fixed the oil level problem.the flare on the 2-3 shift is caused by the clutches coming on after the band is released.on a 2-3 shift the front band releases and the high clutch comes on servo springs band adjustment high clutch clearance affect that . you also need a good valve body. call 727 specialist Keith he took over Griners stuff or call John Cope hope this helps