Re: Mopar Engine Builders - who is actually out there
[Re: BradH]
#2624962
02/23/19 01:05 AM
02/23/19 01:05 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,844 S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,844
S.E. Michigan
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Might cost you a few specialty tools, but it's a learning experience. Although I can't do my own head & block machining, I do all the assembly now. Only way that I'll know how it went together, especially after an experience or two where "professional" engine builders really let me down.
Hell yes to the learning experience, agreed... I also believe in doing this yourself wherever possible. Gearheads are pretty diverse, myself I'd not push anyone in that kind of direction unless they were curious about it and had the desire.
Rich H.
Esse Quam Videri
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Re: Mopar Engine Builders - who is actually out there
[Re: TamrazsParts]
#2624980
02/23/19 02:35 AM
02/23/19 02:35 AM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 984 Tennessee
Hemi ragtop
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 984
Tennessee
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OK, I have to weigh in here. I used a “Mopar” shop, with a good reputation, (mentioned on this post) to build my Mega Block HEMI. It used oil at an alarming rate right from the start. Here is what I found out and what I would, and did, ask when I was looking for the shop to fix the problems I found when I took the engine apart.
THE MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION IS: How do you measure components? For instance, how do you verify the TRUE bore center? How do you measure the concentric and proper angle of the bore to the crank centerline? Most shops will just tell you that they go off the center of the existing bore.
Here is why this is so important. 1. Cylinder bore to piston clearance was TWICE what Diamond recommended. 2. Valve to guide clearance was .006”! (At least one of the heads was brand new out to the box)! But worst of all, they had no means of measuring the actual rod length, compression height, or deck height. So, they cut the deck .050” too far. Result, pistons contacting the heads!
Upon further investigation, I found out that they not only did not have a fixture to properly center the bore, THEY DIDN’T EVEN OWN TORQUE PLATES FOR BORING A HEMI!
How did I discover this? I found the shop that they “borrowed” plates from. Guess what? The shop did not have the plates loaned out when my engine was being worked on.
I service manufacturing machine shops for a living. The good ones ALL have the ability to measure within four decimal places. Automotive machine shops too often “guess”.
So my engine is at a shop that builds ALL brands of engines. But do you know what? They have a boring fixture for a PACKARD V12! Why? Because they had to build one and wanted the bore to be properly oriented to the crank centerline!
Oh, and I have a work sheet that shows the EXACT distance of the stroke, jurnal diameter, angle of crank throws, rod length, piston compression height and DECK HEIGHT! Etc.
In closing, ask how they measure their work. Do they know what the “Datum” is? (The point of reference from which measuremnts are taken) Do they SHOW you, what everything measures? Most importantly, CAN THEY MEASURE AT ALL!!!!!!!
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Re: Mopar Engine Builders - who is actually out there
[Re: ZIPPY]
#2625041
02/23/19 11:59 AM
02/23/19 11:59 AM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,030 ohio
67mprfan
super stock
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super stock
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,030
ohio
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Hell yes to the learning experience, agreed... I also believe in doing this yourself wherever possible.
Gearheads are pretty diverse, myself I'd not push anyone in that kind of direction unless they were curious about it and had the desire.
Coming to Ohio in the near future
71 demon stock stroke 440/indy ez-1 running 10.10 @ 132.14 mph in the 1/4 and 6.36 @ 107.46 mph in the 1/8 not in the same weekend but It did it then I sold it. 67 Belvedere that worked it's way in the 10's
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Re: Mopar Engine Builders - who is actually out there
[Re: ZIPPY]
#2625072
02/23/19 01:23 PM
02/23/19 01:23 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
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Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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Might cost you a few specialty tools, but it's a learning experience..
... Gearheads are pretty diverse, myself I'd not push anyone in that kind of direction unless they were curious about it and had the desire. Understood, but it always felt like a natural progression to me.
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Re: Mopar Engine Builders - who is actually out there
[Re: TamrazsParts]
#2625210
02/23/19 08:17 PM
02/23/19 08:17 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,996 Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,996
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
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I will never have another engine completely built by a shop after what i have found wrong with machine work i have sent out locally. One well known shop just tagged a block as align honed as requested. It was never touched. A set of stock rods came back "resized" and one of the rods had a ding in the rodcap, wouldn't allow it to seat against the rod! This was a well known, trusted shop and i suspect they had a personel problem! So for the cost of the tools to assemble both heads and shortblock, you will be even or maybe save some $$. When I suggest someone do this, along with that goes get a shop manual for the stock motor, (bb right?) ANDYF'S book, and any other well repected books on the motor in question. Take time to learn how to use the measuring tools. Must haves- micrometers, dial bore gauge, valve spring compressor and hieght gauge, dial indicater, to mention some. It takes me a LONG time to screw a motor together, because of all the measuring, checking, double checking i do to make ABSOLUTELY certain i did tighten all those rod bolts correctly, and all the time it can take if you need to FIX something, like when my "lineboared" block cam back and the main caps were off .0005 side to side when i measured the bores for bearing crush. You will have the support of this web board to help ensure you are doing things right, as well. No question is too dumb to ask either!!
Last edited by gregsdart; 02/23/19 08:39 PM.
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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Re: Mopar Engine Builders - who is actually out there
[Re: Hemi ragtop]
#2625864
02/25/19 02:34 PM
02/25/19 02:34 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,844 S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,844
S.E. Michigan
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1. Cylinder bore to piston clearance was TWICE what Diamond recommended. 2. Valve to guide clearance was .006”! (At least one of the heads was brand new out to the box)! But worst of all, they had no means of measuring the actual rod length, compression height, or deck height. So, they cut the deck .050” too far. Result, pistons contacting the heads!
....let that be a lesson to all. On the other side of the coin, it's possible for an aspiring gearhead to acquire a few tools and spend the time on it...verifying an awful, awful lot. Maybe not with "super duper, world renowned famous race engine builder" type of accuracy, but certainly with enough accuracy to tell if somebody smoked his lunch that day and screwed it up. For 1. A 5" mic (piston) and a low line import dial bore gauge (cylinder) will give you piston to wall within a few tenths or so. No, it won't give you .0001 resolution...but what it can do is tell you if you're in a safe ballpark range that makes sense. And the gauge will come in handy for checking other things out. For 2. a 1" mic to measure valve stems and a small hole gauge for your valve guides will give you stem to guide clearance with similar resolution. ...Enough to know whether to send it back or run it. I'm talking about maybe a 200 dollar expenditure, and a little bit of practice to do a minimal check to see if things are making sense. It's possible to CC your own heads (or in the case of the hemi, CC your piston domes 1" down) with about $5 worth of tools. It will get you within 2cc or so and is plenty accurate for a home hot rodder. There is no reason you need lab quality/durable stuff for something you might use once every 7 years. I feel this book is still relevant and useful: https://www.amazon.com/Engine-Blueprinting-Rick-Voegelin/dp/0931472210
Rich H.
Esse Quam Videri
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Re: Mopar Engine Builders - who is actually out there
[Re: TamrazsParts]
#2625900
02/25/19 04:02 PM
02/25/19 04:02 PM
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Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 876 Missouri
jwb123
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 876
Missouri
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MY 2 cents. together I have been an automotive technician and technical instructor teaching engine rebuilding for 45 years. I have a home shop and I build engines for people. I do about 10 engines a year. First a big name engine builder does not guarantee you anything. I have freshened and fixed several engines from those big name builders. Taking the time to measure and check things is what makes the difference. Time is money and when they are building enough engines to make payroll and the bills things get rushed. And I get many people who bring me a pile of parts, and I assemble the engine, sometimes I call them and say this and that are junk, but that's the way it is. Second when you buy that pile of parts, you determine how much HP it will make, the assembler just makes sure it will stay together. Picking the parts and giving the specs to the machine shop you want them to be, is the secret to making power. Kocking on wood my NSS 514 engine has 600 runs and ii is on the stand for freshening and it looks like new inside. Valve springs lost 30 lbs and one exhaust valve is bad. It runs 9.7's And I just have a metal building out in the woods.
Last edited by jwb123; 02/25/19 04:03 PM.
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Re: Mopar Engine Builders - who is actually out there
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#2626056
02/25/19 09:05 PM
02/25/19 09:05 PM
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Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 655 Huntsville, AL
Airwoofer
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 655
Huntsville, AL
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You could always assemble it yourself, It’s not brain surgery. Reading some of these posts makes it sound harder than it is. I have a chebby guy assemble my motors. He takes my junk and makes it work. Doesn't know squat about Mopars. Ie... built a 408 stroker (now internal balance) out of his friends 360 and bought a 360 ATI balancer for a 360, then machined it to get the balance to work. LOL. I had to give him the oil filter adapter for the TTIs to work on that early A. And the hard to get boly, and the impossible to get oil filter gaskets. This guy makes 266" SB chebbys make over 750HP @ over 10K RPM and has won Comp Elim a bunch of times. Local, and willing to work on junk and make it run.
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