Re: Rocker ratio questions
[Re: gregsdart]
#2593292
12/17/18 06:49 PM
12/17/18 06:49 PM
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fourgearsavoy
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Maybe I am just too old school, but I don't see the advantage of going HR versus FT solid cam. A solid cam may be a tic noiser, but a few thou tighter on lash helps. plus they are cheaper by a bunch, and allow you to see any problem early on in the valvetrain. Valve lash changed a bit? OK, what caused that? Something is wearing. Easy to find. HR adds two areas for failure; the roller wheels, and the hydraulics. Thats exactly how I found two of my lobes were going round as my lash went wide after the engine got pretty hot. People tried telling me to go roller when I built this engine but I wanted to keep it simple. Roller technology has come a long way in the last 5 years with so many people putting them in street cars now. Going back to a flat tappet cam would really save me a TON of money and work and it's not completely off the table yet. I have considered getting a nitrided cam and EDM lifters then I could keep my oil pump drive,timing chain and cover,pushrods,springs,and retainers. Those are the ancillary costs of switching to a roller. So still trying to talk myself into it or out of it Gus
64 Plymouth Savoy 493 Indy EZ's by Nick at Compu-Flow 5-Speed Richmond faceplate Liberty box Dana 60
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Re: Rocker ratio questions
[Re: fourgearsavoy]
#2593305
12/17/18 07:14 PM
12/17/18 07:14 PM
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fast68plymouth
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Gus, Just curious...... what are the springs pressures you were running with that cam, and what kind of oil?
Any idea of how many miles you put on those parts during those 5 years they were in the motor?
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Rocker ratio questions
[Re: AndyF]
#2593307
12/17/18 07:16 PM
12/17/18 07:16 PM
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fourgearsavoy
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What RPM do you turn the engine? If you aren't spinning it past 6200 or so then the hyd roller should work just fine. If you have deep gears and are running it thru the lights at 6800 or higher then you might want to stay with a flat tappet cam. The EDM lifters might solve your problem and/or add the nitrided cam. I just got off the phone with Bill Gaterman and he answered a lot of my questions about his lifters. They are making a new run of improved lifters that should be done by the end of next month. He also confirmed Howard's Cams uses their lifters under the Howard's name. I shift the car at 6000 and usually trap at 6500. I still use the Edelbrock Performer RPM so I really don't feel it pulling much over 6500. The thing I still don't understand is why do roller lifters with a bronze bushing cost more than roller bearings. Gus
64 Plymouth Savoy 493 Indy EZ's by Nick at Compu-Flow 5-Speed Richmond faceplate Liberty box Dana 60
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Re: Rocker ratio questions
[Re: fourgearsavoy]
#2593312
12/17/18 07:20 PM
12/17/18 07:20 PM
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fast68plymouth
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Did he tell you which part number Howard’s lifter for a BB Mopar application are made by him?
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Rocker ratio questions
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2593316
12/17/18 07:26 PM
12/17/18 07:26 PM
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fourgearsavoy
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Gus, Just curious...... what are the springs pressures you were running with that cam, and what kind of oil? I am running a set of Crower springs 177-486 and I have been running Brad Penn since I broke it in about 5 years ago. I was hot lapping the car trying to dial in an Edelbrock carb to run in NSS and it went over 260 degrees and thats when I noticed the clattering from the valvetrain. Pulled the valve covers off and confirmed #4 intake and #8 ex lobes going flat with a dial indicator. Maybe the oil got thin when it got hot Gus
64 Plymouth Savoy 493 Indy EZ's by Nick at Compu-Flow 5-Speed Richmond faceplate Liberty box Dana 60
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Re: Rocker ratio questions
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2593317
12/17/18 07:28 PM
12/17/18 07:28 PM
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fourgearsavoy
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Did he tell you which part number Howard’s lifter for a BB Mopar application are made by him? No but he did say they were the same as the AMC lifters. Gus
64 Plymouth Savoy 493 Indy EZ's by Nick at Compu-Flow 5-Speed Richmond faceplate Liberty box Dana 60
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Re: Rocker ratio questions
[Re: fourgearsavoy]
#2593326
12/17/18 07:41 PM
12/17/18 07:41 PM
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fast68plymouth
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Sooo, 177lbs on the seat, 486lbs open? That’s way too much for a street strip car if you’re trying to make the cam live...... especially if you’re only turning it 6500. Those are mid-level street roller pressures. And, that’s more than what most of the street/strip type hyd roller lifters are rated for.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Rocker ratio questions
[Re: polyspheric]
#2593410
12/17/18 10:36 PM
12/17/18 10:36 PM
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fourgearsavoy
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WOW that was a lot to process The engines I deal with at work with VVTI have a high volume oil pump with large galleys and that 0-20 synthetic oil really does the job. Still have to sleep on this flat versus hyd.roller cam debate in my head. Gus
64 Plymouth Savoy 493 Indy EZ's by Nick at Compu-Flow 5-Speed Richmond faceplate Liberty box Dana 60
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Re: Rocker ratio questions
[Re: fourgearsavoy]
#2593443
12/17/18 11:07 PM
12/17/18 11:07 PM
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Joined: Aug 2011
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CSK
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These are the lifters I have, note the spring pressure
Return to Parts List
Category : D- Big Block (Low Deck) : Lifters
HUG 6074
BB RACE HYDRAULIC ROLLER LIFTER SET
GOOD FOR UP TO 225# SEAT PRESSURE & 550# OPEN
$919.47
Set of 16 Big Block Hydraulic Race Roller Lifters. These are oil thru lifters and will oil through the pushrods if you need them to.
Suggested maximum spring pressure: 225# on the seat 550# full lift
DO NOT RUN OIL THICKER THAN 5W40 WITH THESE LIFTERS.
.810" roller
* The lifter bores do not need to be bushed to run these lifters. * DO NOT use these lifters with a flat tappet cam!
Note: These lifters also fit the AMC V8 engines.
1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI 512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim 2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5
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Re: Rocker ratio questions
[Re: fourgearsavoy]
#2593444
12/17/18 11:08 PM
12/17/18 11:08 PM
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These are the less money ones
HUG 5319
BIG BLOCK HYD ROLLER LIFTER SET
GOOD FOR UP TO 160# SEAT PRESSURE & 380# OPEN
$449.95
Set of 16 Big Block Hydraulic STREET Roller Lifters. These are oil thru lifters and will oil through the pushrods if you need them to.
Suggested maximum spring pressure: 160# on the seat 380# full lift.
For race applications with heavier spring pressures use part # 6074
10W30 oil recommended.
.700" roller
* The lifter bores do not need to be bushed to run these lifters. * DO NOT use these lifters with a flat tappet cam!
Note: These lifters also fit the AMC V8 engines.
Last edited by csk; 12/18/18 12:11 AM.
1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI 512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim 2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5
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Re: Rocker ratio questions
[Re: fourgearsavoy]
#2593492
12/18/18 12:06 AM
12/18/18 12:06 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,514 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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Still have to sleep on this flat versus hyd.roller cam debate in my head. If you stay with a solid, and stick with spring loads like you posted....... expect cam life to not be all that great.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Rocker ratio questions
[Re: polyspheric]
#2593493
12/18/18 12:07 AM
12/18/18 12:07 AM
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madscientist
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I read a very scary article about how oil viscosity affects engine life at start-up: 20W50 takes about a week to reach that last tappet... http://tinyurl.com/ycbdktsg I read that article. Love the fact the author pointed out oil doesn't have a "weight" but has a "grade". One thing I read that I'm not sure of is the author said that synthetic oils don't have VI improvers. I'm not sure that is correct. If I have time tomorrow I may make some phone calls and ask around about that. Other than that, that was a great article.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: Rocker ratio questions
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2593544
12/18/18 01:11 AM
12/18/18 01:11 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,284 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
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Still have to sleep on this flat versus hyd.roller cam debate in my head. If you stay with a solid, and stick with spring loads like you posted....... expect cam life to not be all that great. On your deal I would of look for between 140 to 170 lbs. on the seats sand from 325 to 375 Lbs. open
Last edited by Cab_Burge; 12/19/18 04:53 AM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Rocker ratio questions
[Re: fourgearsavoy]
#2593572
12/18/18 02:59 AM
12/18/18 02:59 AM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,470 Sydney,Australia
tex013
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Maybe I am just too old school, but I don't see the advantage of going HR versus FT solid cam. A solid cam may be a tic noiser, but a few thou tighter on lash helps. plus they are cheaper by a bunch, and allow you to see any problem early on in the valvetrain. Valve lash changed a bit? OK, what caused that? Something is wearing. Easy to find. HR adds two areas for failure; the roller wheels, and the hydraulics. Thats exactly how I found two of my lobes were going round as my lash went wide after the engine got pretty hot. People tried telling me to go roller when I built this engine but I wanted to keep it simple. Roller technology has come a long way in the last 5 years with so many people putting them in street cars now. Going back to a flat tappet cam would really save me a TON of money and work and it's not completely off the table yet. I have considered getting a nitrided cam and EDM lifters then I could keep my oil pump drive,timing chain and cover,pushrods,springs,and retainers. Those are the ancillary costs of switching to a roller. So still trying to talk myself into it or out of it Gus Avoid nitriding your cam . I had mine nitrided brand new at start of 2017 , block split May 2018 . When I pulled cam I was going to reuse it . BUPBOW , surface failed . This was with about 3-5000 street miles and a lot of racing . I was told the heat process softened the core so the surface was hard but brittle. It started to breakup . got a new cam last week ,not nitrided will post a pic off my phone if possible Tex
New best ET 10.259@129.65 . New best MPH 130.32 Finally fitted a solid cam, stepped it up a bit more 3690lbs through the mufflers New World block 3780lbs 10.278@130.80 . Wowser 10.253@130.24 footbraking from 1500rpm Power by Tex's Automotive
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Re: Rocker ratio questions
[Re: tex013]
#2593575
12/18/18 03:04 AM
12/18/18 03:04 AM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,470 Sydney,Australia
tex013
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By the way the lifters were still like new , Howards EDM
Tex
Last edited by tex013; 12/18/18 03:07 AM.
New best ET 10.259@129.65 . New best MPH 130.32 Finally fitted a solid cam, stepped it up a bit more 3690lbs through the mufflers New World block 3780lbs 10.278@130.80 . Wowser 10.253@130.24 footbraking from 1500rpm Power by Tex's Automotive
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Re: Rocker ratio questions
[Re: fourgearsavoy]
#2593603
12/18/18 04:54 AM
12/18/18 04:54 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421 Balt. Md
383man
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Dwayne had my FT cam nitrided and I use the Comp EDM lifters he sent me with it. Its been flawless as the cam and lifters are still working great after almost 8 years. Ron
Last edited by 383man; 12/18/18 05:02 AM.
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Re: Rocker ratio questions
[Re: fourgearsavoy]
#2593610
12/18/18 05:36 AM
12/18/18 05:36 AM
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Joined: Sep 2014
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madscientist
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Mike Jones posted some stuff about nitriding cams and IIRC he wasn't much for it because as was mentioned it cause the core to soften.
I don't have issues and I don't even run lifters with holes in them. I think idle speed and oil flow have a lot to do with cams going bad after surviving break in.
I see guys letting their stuff idle down to 700-750 and that's just too slow for fast ramp cams IMHO. My cam will most easily idle at 750 but I cringe if it drops below 900. There is just no reason to let the lifter drag over the lobe.
That's what kills the lobes when new if not started correctly. That slow lifter rotation (or none at all) kills them. Prolonged slow idle is not good for them.
Also, the oil pressure and flow is way down at those engine speeds, even if you use a HV pump.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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