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#2589633 - 12/09/18 08:25 PM Looking for In order of preference ignition system
modelmakerinc Offline
top fuel

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 2042
Loc: west palm beach, florida
Went from points to Mopar electronic wondering what's the next progression of upgrade.


How do you stack them up what is your order?
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#2589642 - 12/09/18 08:42 PM Re: Looking for In order of preference ignition system [Re: modelmakerinc]
RapidRobert Online   content
Circle Track

Registered: 11/20/03
Posts: 34510
Loc: Lincoln Nebraska
OE HEI chebby module/furd full 12V E coil coil (dirt cheap at rockauto) no ballast. Mount the module under the dist (dont forget the heat sink paste). OR the FBO Revnator (no exp with it tho & it is pricey) just from reviews here.
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#2589681 - 12/09/18 10:03 PM Re: Looking for In order of preference ignition system [Re: RapidRobert]
GY3 Online   content


Registered: 12/13/13
Posts: 2595
Loc: Wichita
I like using a recurved Chrysler magnetic pick distributor with an MSD 6AL analog box.

Why?

1. Parts readily available for the distributor and you can pick up a box everywhere.

2. You have a vacuum advance on the Chryco distributor. MSD distributors you don't.

3. You can easily do add-ons like 2 steps, timing controllers, different rev limits.

4. Very easy to wire and hook up and stone reliable!

We have tried the new digital, all inclusive MSD boxes and have had problems as they are not the quality of the older a analog boxes. The all inclusive distributors are even worse! Ask the Ford guys..


Edited by GY3 (12/09/18 10:05 PM)
Edit Reason: Misfire..

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#2589719 - 12/10/18 12:04 AM Re: Looking for In order of preference ignition system [Re: modelmakerinc]
astjp2 Offline
master

Registered: 01/18/11
Posts: 4477
Loc: Utah and Alaska
Coil near plug by holley...
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#2590563 - 12/11/18 05:50 PM Re: Looking for In order of preference ignition system [Re: GY3]
70runner Offline
super stock

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 1061
Loc: Avocado country
Originally Posted By GY3
The all inclusive distributors are even worse! Ask the Ford guys..


Don't have to ask any Furdies. Our first (and last) BB RTR dizzy broke at about 100mi.

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#2591040 - 12/12/18 06:10 PM Re: Looking for In order of preference ignition system [Re: 70runner]
dogdays Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 16290
Well here goes, my opinions may be worth what you paid for them.
Start from stock. The stock Mopar electronic ignition system is adequate for most everything street-related. There has been some gum flapping about quality of the aftermarket stock replacement boxes. The distributors, however, are a known quantity and do their job quite efficiently. The only thing I'd suggest on a stock system is to have the distributor recurved so you can run a decent amount of initial advance and then the mechanical advance comes all in by 3000rpm. Total advance on LA motors usualy runs around 35 or 36, B/RB motors with stock heads need about 38 degrees total timing. Vacuum advance, which I use on all my vehicles. is extra.

The next step up from that is the Rev-N-Nator which looks like a factory box but has a lot of stuff going on inside. After studying their write-ups and their patent documents I have concluded that this box is for real. There is another good aftermarket plug and play box sold by www.foursecondsflat.com. It uses a circuit designed by the guys who do Daytona Sensors and as such it should be good. The GM HEI module with four connectors, two on each end, also can make a really big spark. It needs to be attached to a heat sink with conductive grease between the module and the heat sink.

Any of the above boxes should either be used with the manufacturer's recommended coil, or else with a modern "E" core coil, like Ford used with their TFI ignition. Standard Motor Products FD-478. Look under the hood of a late '80s ford car. It's the square coil with the iron around the outside. It's more efficient and will help produce a hotter spark if the engine needs it. Everything above on this page is an inductive system which makes a single long-duration spark.

Now we move on to Capacitive Discharge Ignitions, usually called CD or CDI. There has been a real consolidation in the past few years. I liked the Accel 300+, others liked the Mallory Hyfire, there was a Holley, the Crane Cams Hi6 and of course the MSD. I have put 150,000 miles on an Accel 300+ and 80,000 miles on an analog MSD 6200 that I bought used for $40. The only problem for you is that only the MSD Digital 6 and FAST Hi6 are still available new. With these boxes I use the stock electronic distributor. All of the CD ignitions are multi-spark up to around 3000 rpm, then switch to single spark. The multi spark compensates for the CD ignition's very short spark duration.

Exceeding the usual CDI boxes is the Daytona Sensors CD-1, about twice as expensive, but seems to be really well built and has a number of useful features built in. For straight race applications the old faithful MSD 7 is very commonly used.

MSD has some more high end stuff, more pro racer-ish. Don't be fooled by the NASCAR approved boxes, they have lower maximum spark energy than their street brothers, and are forced to use analog circuitry. Of course they would work just fine on the street, but in this case just because it's sanctioned by NASCAR doesn't mean it's higher performance.

Above this are the multi-coil ignition systems run off a crank trigger, such as Electromotive. They take the crank trigger signal and calculate the timing of the spark. With these, the spark advance is calculated by speed and in some cases by load. There is 8 times as long to charge up each coil so a long duration, fat spark is produced. The spark advance curve can be programmed, no more messing with weights and springs! Just plug into your computer and go. These systems can be coil on plug or coil near plug as well as use a conventional distributor to dish out the sparks. An additional benefit of these setups is that the crank trigger is at least 10 times more accurate than the distributor. Recent articles about spark timing have pointed out how far from perfect it is. Doing away with distributors and spark plug wires is a real time- and cost- saver.

That's my rundown on systems. It is important to note that just because a system is CAPABLE of producing a 50KV spark, the actual spark voltage is the amount that is required to jump the gap of the spark plug. Usually this is in the neighborhood of 28KV.
One book that goes into some detail was written by Dr. Christopher Jacobs, who wrote The Doctor's Guide to High Performance Ignition and I guess is still making ignition systems. I thought the company was gone. He writes about things in very attractive engineeringese and I don't know what to believe and what not to believe. I believe most everything he sells is CDI. I have a feeling he gives imaginative names to everyday physical processes and makes it sound like he's splitting the atom. One of my systems is using a Jacobs chrome coil that I bought 30 years ago, so it seems his equipment has quality.

Unless your ignition system is really down and out you won't see a noticeable increase in power or efficiency by going to a more capable system. I know that and I do it anyway. But take a good conventional system and install a high $$$ CDI and there will be only a slight improvement, if any. The "placebo effect" assures that you will probably notice an improvement, but this is because you expect it to happen, even if it does not.

R.


Edited by dogdays (12/12/18 06:14 PM)

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#2591109 - 12/12/18 08:31 PM Re: Looking for In order of preference ignition system [Re: modelmakerinc]
Supercuda Offline
I want my mommy!!

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 14319
Loc: up yours
Dr Jacobs got bought out a long time ago and I don't think anything is available in the US.
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#2591143 - 12/12/18 10:02 PM Re: Looking for In order of preference ignition system [Re: dogdays]
RapidRobert Online   content
Circle Track

Registered: 11/20/03
Posts: 34510
Loc: Lincoln Nebraska
Dog I thought the revnator WAS from 4 seconds flat (Don). I need to bone up on this stuff. Thank you. Supercuda regarding Jacobs, I have the old Jacobs ign bible & it is a VG read tho alot is based on points (which surprised me).
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#2591171 - 12/12/18 11:33 PM Re: Looking for In order of preference ignition system [Re: modelmakerinc]
AndyF Offline
Too Many Posts

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 25168
Loc: Oregon
Might as well step up to the good stuff!


Attachments
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#2591328 - 12/13/18 12:00 PM Re: Looking for In order of preference ignition system [Re: AndyF]
dogdays Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 16290
That's what I'm talking about! Each coil gets most of two engine revolutions to charge up.

The FBO system is the HRR688. That's foursecondsflat. Back when Don was posting pictures of the circuit board it was easy to spot "Daytona Sensors" silk screened onto the board.

The Rev-N-Nater is from a small shop up in Minnesota, IIRC.

Both use digital technology in an inductive system. I wouldn't be surprised to find they use most of the same ideas in their design.

I, too thought Jacobs was dead until I did a Web search which LOOKED like they were still going in some form. But once something is posted online it never really goes away. What I saw was only one layer deep. So yes, they are no more. (And we still don't have any bananas.)

R.

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#2591379 - 12/13/18 01:35 PM Re: Looking for In order of preference ignition system [Re: modelmakerinc]
Supercuda Offline
I want my mommy!!

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 14319
Loc: up yours
Like this?


Attachments
HRR688circuitboard.jpg


_________________________
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.

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#2591401 - 12/13/18 02:17 PM Re: Looking for In order of preference ignition system [Re: modelmakerinc]
SILVER67 Offline
super stock

Registered: 02/04/06
Posts: 768
Loc: Liverpool, NY
Can the 4secondsflat be rebuilt ?
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#2591403 - 12/13/18 02:20 PM Re: Looking for In order of preference ignition system [Re: modelmakerinc]
ZIPPY Online   content
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 15451
Loc: S.E. Michigan
Originally Posted By modelmakerinc
Went from points to Mopar electronic wondering what's the next progression of upgrade.




Your next step would be an msd box with your existing dist and a compatible coil.
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#2591433 - 12/13/18 03:16 PM Re: Looking for In order of preference ignition system [Re: dogdays]
TC@HP2 Offline
master

Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 4922
Loc: Pikes Peak Country
Originally Posted By dogdays

Unless your ignition system is really down and out you won't see a noticeable increase in power or efficiency by going to a more capable system. I know that and I do it anyway. But take a good conventional system and install a high $$$ CDI and there will be only a slight improvement, if any. The "placebo effect" assures that you will probably notice an improvement, but this is because you expect it to happen, even if it does not.

R.


^^^This.

On my drag car, I ran a stock chrome box set up, stock distributor with Jacobs coil, complete Crane system, A complete Mallory system, and a complete MSD system. All of them ran the same e.t. and m.p.h. none really outperformed the other. Each offered a change up in features that were nice to have, but didn't make things run any better.

I'd say the coil on plug set up is the next best evolution.

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#2591601 - 12/13/18 10:00 PM Re: Looking for In order of preference ignition system [Re: TC@HP2]
Lee446 Offline
super stock

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 1188
Loc: Houston,Tx.
I agree with GY3. While one may not make a car any faster than the others, I have found that when running a somewhat rowdy cam in street/traffic conditions, the multi sparks have the edge for improved idle and low speed operation. I prefer the MSD analog 6AL as it is stone reliable and can be serviced if necessary. So many of the others are history, MSD is still around.

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#2591868 - 12/14/18 11:51 AM Re: Looking for In order of preference ignition system [Re: Lee446]
dogdays Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 16290
I'm with you on the analog MSD 6s. My $40.00 secondhand Ebay box just keeps on jammin' sparks. I am using the Direct Connection electronic distributor and a chrome Jacobs coil, really old school stuff.

The major reason that the other guys aren't around any more is that MSD/Holley bought most of them and discontinued them.

There's no reason MSD digital 6 isn't as successful as the analog units, IF you eliminate RFI. The engine compartment has a lot of electrical hash floating around. If the detector circuit in the Digital 6 is too sensitive or isn't selective enough, the box can get triggered by the interference. For that reason most ignition manufacturers encourage you to keep the leads from the mag pickup to the ignition box as short as possible (shorter antenna). As I work with electrical engineers, I have learned that using a twisted pair signal cable can eliminate much of the hash, and a shielded twisted pair just about eliminates it. Something like signal cable used between microphones and mixing boards is the right stuff. Belden 8451 would be a good example. I think the shield should only be grounded on one end. What say you, Sparkys?

R.

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#2591871 - 12/14/18 11:59 AM Re: Looking for In order of preference ignition system [Re: modelmakerinc]
Supercuda Offline
I want my mommy!!

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 14319
Loc: up yours
You pretty much nailed it, shielded twisted pair, ground on one end.
_________________________
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.

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#2591929 - 12/14/18 01:58 PM Re: Looking for In order of preference ignition system [Re: ZIPPY]
383man Offline
Too Many Posts

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 27017
Loc: Balt. Md
Originally Posted By ZIPPY
Originally Posted By modelmakerinc
Went from points to Mopar electronic wondering what's the next progression of upgrade.




Your next step would be an msd box with your existing dist and a compatible coil.




That's what I would do. We took the orange box off my sons Dart and added MSD box and coil with the Mopar dist I recurved. Car ran the same as with the orange ECU but I like the lower rpm multi-spark of the MSD. If I ever update my orange ECU on my 63 I will go with MSD. Ron


Edited by 383man (12/14/18 01:59 PM)
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#2592024 - 12/14/18 05:08 PM Re: Looking for In order of preference ignition system [Re: dogdays]
dart4forte Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/31/03
Posts: 14535
Loc: Mesa, Arizona
Originally Posted By dogdays
I'm with you on the analog MSD 6s. My $40.00 secondhand Ebay box just keeps on jammin' sparks. I am using the Direct Connection electronic distributor and a chrome Jacobs coil, really old school stuff.

The major reason that the other guys aren't around any more is that MSD/Holley bought most of them and discontinued them.

There's no reason MSD digital 6 isn't as successful as the analog units, IF you eliminate RFI. The engine compartment has a lot of electrical hash floating around. If the detector circuit in the Digital 6 is too sensitive or isn't selective enough, the box can get triggered by the interference. For that reason most ignition manufacturers encourage you to keep the leads from the mag pickup to the ignition box as short as possible (shorter antenna). As I work with electrical engineers, I have learned that using a twisted pair signal cable can eliminate much of the hash, and a shielded twisted pair just about eliminates it. Something like signal cable used between microphones and mixing boards is the right stuff. Belden 8451 would be a good example. I think the shield should only be grounded on one end. What say you, Sparkys?

R.


Last time I checked MSD is not refurbishing the old boxes. Correct me if I’m wrong.


Edited by dart4forte (12/14/18 05:10 PM)

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#2592262 - 12/15/18 09:07 AM Re: Looking for In order of preference ignition system [Re: dogdays]
360view Offline
master

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 4662
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By dogdays
Well here goes, my opinions may be worth what you paid for them.
.......
One book that goes into some detail was written by Dr. Christopher Jacobs, who wrote The Doctor's Guide to High Performance Ignition and I guess is still making ignition systems. I thought the company was gone. He writes about things in very attractive engineeringese and I don't know what to believe and what not to believe.

R.


I definitely liked Chris Jacobs book too.

I was especially interested in his comments that “He really likes ‘Booster Gap’ spark plugs”.

I wish I could buy some Irridium tipped Bosster Gap sparkplugs to experiment with.
Barring any of those, my second wish would be for ignition wires with built in booster gaps.

Chris Jacobs statement that daily driver V8s in RVs and pickups benefit from low turns ratio coils that produce long burn time sparks is worth noting too.

https://www.amazon.com/Doctors-Optimizin...istopher+jacobs

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