Pistons soaked?
#2589106
12/08/18 07:43 PM
12/08/18 07:43 PM
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 370 Suffolk County, New York
1mean340
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OP
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Posts: 370
Suffolk County, New York
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Hey guys, still trying to knock out some of the issues with my procharged 340 before spring.
A lot of the issues have been with tuning on E85 using the FITECH 1200. I have been running into a ton of problems from loading up badly at idle/rich tip ins and all sorts of other AFR problems.
One thing I noticed is that the plugs keep coming out fuel fouled, which is expected with the AFR issues I've been having with the FITECH. a couple have a shiny, glazed black crust on them that seems like oil deposits though.
Anyway, I took a bore scope to the pistons and the tops of all the pistons are soaked in wet, black sludge.
I put the borescope down the manifold and the manifold is bone dry. The intake ports are also dry.
This a new motor (maybe 1500 miles) with total seal gapless rings. I'm running about 7PSI of boost and don't have a PCV or vacuum pump. I do have both valve covers plumbed to a vented catch can. Theres NO oil residue in either of the hoses from the valve covers and I never have any oil in the catch can. Not even a misting inside the fittings coming off the valve covers.
I really don't think I have been burning a significant amount of oil either, but it has been hard to say because I had a stubborn leak from the 90 degree adapter for a little while so I did have to top it off a couple of times.
Just wondering what you guys think about a PCV or vacuum pump system, if I should need one for this setup? What else should I check for? I just found it weird that I could be getting that much oil but none in the catch can.
Also what are your guesses on what may be causing the wet piston tops?
Last edited by 1mean340; 12/08/18 07:46 PM.
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Re: Pistons soaked?
[Re: 1mean340]
#2589112
12/08/18 08:00 PM
12/08/18 08:00 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,540 Milwaukee WI
TRENDZ
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,540
Milwaukee WI
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My guess... The poor fuel control on a new engine destroyed the rings. I suggest you get the fuel control in order, then have the engine honed. Put a set of hellfire rings in it. That system is heavily dependant on the wideband. If you have ANY exhaust leaks, you will never get the fueling right.
"use it 'till it breaks, replace as needed"
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Re: Pistons soaked?
[Re: 1mean340]
#2589458
12/09/18 04:54 PM
12/09/18 04:54 PM
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 370 Suffolk County, New York
1mean340
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Washing out the rings is exactly what I've been afraid of. On pump gas things seemed to work better (not great, but better) but on E85 I was always fouling out plugs.
No exhaust leaks I can detect. I leak tested my exhaust welds and 02 bung weld to 20PSI and not a pinhole leak. It's all painted silver and don't see nothing around the collector/header flange and hear/feel nothing as far as leaks go.
As far as ignition, I just have an MSD 6AL box, Pro Billet distributor and FITECH controls the timing curve. Plugs were always gapped at around .24
Fuel pressure reg in the fitch is blocked and I have a bypass regulator (Aeromotive 13101). I wondered if maybe it couldn't keep up with the massive Magnafuel MP4303 pump, I have been meaning to GOPRO it under load.
It's not that it was constantly running rich, it definitely wasn't and sometimes it would pull super clean and hard for a brief moment if you leaned into it just right. I was definitely having some weird/sporadic fueling issues though.
I did many compression tests and they were within 8 or so PSI on all cyls. I did a cold leak down test a few months ago on the passenger side bank and all cyls were in acceptable range and close (I forgot to write it down). I'm not sure if a cold leak down test really tells me anything though so I'm going to do a hot one on all 8 holes as soon as I can.
I'm actually switching it over to pump gas for the winter. I'm a little worried about WOT pulls on 93 octane with 7psi but I at least want to see if I can get this system to cruise without fouling plugs and overfueling. I know the last time I was on pump gas it seemed to a big improvement in drivability over E85
I've talked to multiple pro tuners in the area hoping I could just have one of them figure it out but nobody wants to touch the FITECH and they tell me they don't think the system is going to work for what I'm using it for. The guys on the FITECH board insist otherwise though as there are other boosted/big cam/E85 guys that apparently don't have issues.
Last edited by 1mean340; 12/09/18 04:55 PM.
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Re: Pistons soaked?
[Re: 1mean340]
#2589511
12/09/18 07:02 PM
12/09/18 07:02 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,540 Milwaukee WI
TRENDZ
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master
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Milwaukee WI
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7 psi on 93 shouldn’t be any problem at all.
Tough love... get that fitech off of your car and go with a true efi system.
The fact that you camera’d the intake, with no signs of oil, tells you all you need to know about the condition of the rings. Pull the engine, get it honed, install new rings.
"use it 'till it breaks, replace as needed"
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Re: Pistons soaked?
[Re: 1mean340]
#2591878
12/14/18 03:18 PM
12/14/18 03:18 PM
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 370 Suffolk County, New York
1mean340
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Posts: 370
Suffolk County, New York
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I know it's probably a long shot, but the crosshatching looked very pronounced still on the bore scope and the motor definitely doesn't have a lot of miles on it, so maybe if I get the tune right and beat on it a bit the rings will seat?
Either way, I guess I still need to get these fueling issues worked out before I can fix that problem.
I'm going to give the FITECH one more shot on pump gas before I pull it off and upgrade it to a better MPI system. I never seemed to have the overfueling issues on pump gas so I'm wondering if maybe it'll work.
What do you guys think about AFR targets at idle/cruise/WOT? What about timing? I have an idea of what I think will work but I'd really like to hear from guys more experienced with tuning as to what I should be shooting for as a baseline.
Most of the specs are in the signature. It's an intercooled procharged setup at 7PSI. MSD 6AL, FITECH controlling the timing curve
Hemi itis, interesting chart! I wonder how they come up with that as how can you really say "X total compression" is the limit of a particular fuel without taking into consideration timing and intake air temps?
Last edited by 1mean340; 12/14/18 03:27 PM.
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Re: Pistons soaked?
[Re: 1mean340]
#2591900
12/14/18 03:54 PM
12/14/18 03:54 PM
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crabman173
Unregistered
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crabman173
Unregistered
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I know this sounds nuts but... I see so many post about washed out rings and I wonder--- I had a stroker big block six pack engine on the dyno--custom set new carbs with max mods and build--Fired it up all good ran for about 10 minutes--sounded weird--took about 10-15 minutes of looking everything over until I pulled carb bowls--NO JETS! OK well there is the problem--next we drain the oil--filled a bucket with oil and raw fuel--Ok so rings and who knows what else ruined! So I said why not? Filled with fresh oil--added some jets--swapped plugs--fired it back up--ran normal break in and when dyno day was over it made exactly what it should have to start with-- That was about 2010 and it is still melting tires and making smiles so If one was going to "wash out" the rings it was that unit I think that some do for sure but they are tougher than we might think and many that are suspected have not done that at all.
Fix the issue change oil and plugs, set timing and let her rip
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Re: Pistons soaked?
[Re: 1mean340]
#2591925
12/14/18 04:47 PM
12/14/18 04:47 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,540 Milwaukee WI
TRENDZ
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master
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,540
Milwaukee WI
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Problem is, you describe oil in the combustion chamber. Adding boost, even with a perfect tune, combined with oil in the chamber elevates the temps and torches out ringlands. Doesnt matter if you see cross hatch pattern. The second ring is supposed to scrape oil. It isnt doing that anymore. The ring face has worn into the wrong shape. Pistons will be the next expense in the cost of denial.
"use it 'till it breaks, replace as needed"
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Re: Pistons soaked?
[Re: TRENDZ]
#2591941
12/14/18 05:13 PM
12/14/18 05:13 PM
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crabman173
Unregistered
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crabman173
Unregistered
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Problem is, you describe oil in the combustion chamber. Adding boost, even with a perfect tune, combined with oil in the chamber elevates the temps and torches out ringlands. Doesnt matter if you see cross hatch pattern. The second ring is supposed to scrape oil. It isnt doing that anymore. The ring face has worn into the wrong shape. Pistons will be the next expense in the cost of denial. Agree! Oil has zero octane Oil on piston tops is always time to stop--start over
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Re: Pistons soaked?
[Re: ]
#2592084
12/14/18 10:13 PM
12/14/18 10:13 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457 Washington
madscientist
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Washington
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I know this sounds nuts but... I see so many post about washed out rings and I wonder--- I had a stroker big block six pack engine on the dyno--custom set new carbs with max mods and build--Fired it up all good ran for about 10 minutes--sounded weird--took about 10-15 minutes of looking everything over until I pulled carb bowls--NO JETS! OK well there is the problem--next we drain the oil--filled a bucket with oil and raw fuel--Ok so rings and who knows what else ruined! So I said why not? Filled with fresh oil--added some jets--swapped plugs--fired it back up--ran normal break in and when dyno day was over it made exactly what it should have to start with-- That was about 2010 and it is still melting tires and making smiles so If one was going to "wash out" the rings it was that unit I think that some do for sure but they are tougher than we might think and many that are suspected have not done that at all.
Fix the issue change oil and plugs, set timing and let her rip Sounds like you caught it pretty quick and took care of it and then put some load to it. When I see a fuel wash thing it's usually when you have an issue over time...like a choke being stuck on. The continuous long term fuel wash (long term is relative...I've seen it done in a few days of being not corrected) kills the rings. Once they are toast, you can't get it back without new rings.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: Pistons soaked?
[Re: 1mean340]
#2592254
12/15/18 11:48 AM
12/15/18 11:48 AM
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,051 The Great White North
RAMM
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super stock
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Posts: 1,051
The Great White North
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Hey guys, still trying to knock out some of the issues with my procharged 340 before spring.
This a new motor (maybe 1500 miles) with total seal gapless rings. [b][/b]I really don't think I have been burning a significant amount of oil either, but it has been hard to say Also what are your guesses on what may be causing the wet piston tops? Look I'm only going to say this once because most people using these rings and there are many,will not want to hear this. It's your rings. They are probably not washed out or glazed or whatever. It is the gapless design that causes the abnormal oil consumption under high vacuum conditions. Most people in general do not like feeling embarrassed and this applies to car guys that shell out big $$$$ on the trick of the week. When the trick of the week is a dud, NOBODY wants to admit they have been had. I have been down this road with those stupid , expensive rings three times personally and several more as a third party. OP please dingle ball hone your cylinders if they are straight and round and install a conventional gap ring. All of your oil consumption problems will go away and your tune up will more than likely come around (coincidence? not likely) My favourites are Hastings, Sealed Power, Mahle (PC), Grant etc... I could write a chapter on my experience with rings with documentation (proof) , compression tests, leak down tests, dyno tests and REAL world driving and use. Before certain ostriches jump on me--Yes I know how to hone a cylinder and file rings to the correct gap. I've never and I mean NEVER built or machined an engine that consumed abnormal (copius) amounts of oil UNTIL I tried THOSE rings. I was dumb enough to try them three times (see afore mentioned ostrich syndrome) which in my books is a fair shot. Never again. Oh you can call them and tell them and they will tell you its the oil youre using, its your honing, its the pistons, its the crank causing to much piston rock ('cuz no ones ever built a stroker that didn't burn too much oil-lol), its too much windage, its Trump's fault < OK that last one I made up. I even had a certain SALESMAN there tell me his new GM truck used a quart a week and when he complained the service rep told him it was completely normal and to piss off. Sorry I cannot and will not tell my customer that. Sorry for the long post but it is your rings--I'd put a large sum of $$$ on it. Pile on. J.Rob
2009 PHR\EMC Competitor 2010 PHR\EMC Competitor 2011 PHR\EMC Competitor 2012 PHR\EMC Competitor 2013 PHR\EMC Competitor 2014 HotRod/EMC Competitor 2015 HotRod/EMC NoShow 2016 HotRod/EMC 3rd place SPEC Bigblock 2018 HotRod/EMC 7th place G3
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Re: Pistons soaked?
[Re: RAMM]
#2592364
12/15/18 03:07 PM
12/15/18 03:07 PM
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 370 Suffolk County, New York
1mean340
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enthusiast
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OP
enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 370
Suffolk County, New York
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Hey guys, still trying to knock out some of the issues with my procharged 340 before spring.
This a new motor (maybe 1500 miles) with total seal gapless rings. [b][/b]I really don't think I have been burning a significant amount of oil either, but it has been hard to say Also what are your guesses on what may be causing the wet piston tops? Look I'm only going to say this once because most people using these rings and there are many,will not want to hear this. It's your rings. They are probably not washed out or glazed or whatever. It is the gapless design that causes the abnormal oil consumption under high vacuum conditions. Most people in general do not like feeling embarrassed and this applies to car guys that shell out big $$$$ on the trick of the week. When the trick of the week is a dud, NOBODY wants to admit they have been had. I have been down this road with those stupid , expensive rings three times personally and several more as a third party. OP please dingle ball hone your cylinders if they are straight and round and install a conventional gap ring. All of your oil consumption problems will go away and your tune up will more than likely come around (coincidence? not likely) My favourites are Hastings, Sealed Power, Mahle (PC), Grant etc... I could write a chapter on my experience with rings with documentation (proof) , compression tests, leak down tests, dyno tests and REAL world driving and use. Before certain ostriches jump on me--Yes I know how to hone a cylinder and file rings to the correct gap. I've never and I mean NEVER built or machined an engine that consumed abnormal (copius) amounts of oil UNTIL I tried THOSE rings. I was dumb enough to try them three times (see afore mentioned ostrich syndrome) which in my books is a fair shot. Never again. Oh you can call them and tell them and they will tell you its the oil youre using, its your honing, its the pistons, its the crank causing to much piston rock ('cuz no ones ever built a stroker that didn't burn too much oil-lol), its too much windage, its Trump's fault < OK that last one I made up. I even had a certain SALESMAN there tell me his new GM truck used a quart a week and when he complained the service rep told him it was completely normal and to piss off. Sorry I cannot and will not tell my customer that. Sorry for the long post but it is your rings--I'd put a large sum of $$$ on it. Pile on. J.Rob Thanks RAMM and to all others who replied. It definitely sounds like you are right. I'm going to check a few more things first, I want to do the leak down test hot just to check (cold everything looked good, but I know that's no way to do a leak down test). The only thing I am wondering though if maybe it isn't oil and it's just wet carbon. I'll figure that out quickly with a q tip sent down there though, it was hard to tell on my somewhat crappy borescope, I just assumed it wasn't carbon because the motor only has 800 miles on it, I didn't think it could build up so much so fast. I just thought it was weird because the the plugs never showed any signs of serious oil issues. One or two had a slight black glaze to them (but no ash), mostly they were just a sooted with fuel. Not terribly sooty, just definitely on the rich side. Under most driving conditions the car never ran rich, it's not like the car was dumping fuel all the time. It only had a weird load up problem after coming to a stop which would cause it to buck and stumble bad when trying to get moving again. If I let it idle for a few seconds before getting going again the AFR would normalize and then it would accelerate great. It would also get lean tip ins going into WOT causing it to overcorrect rich and then correct out of it again. This would happen briefly at the gear changes too. It wasn't as if it was dumping fuel all the time, but there were definitely times where it would stumble from dumping fuel. I know it is probably the rings, but I figure it can't hurt just trying to smooth out the tune on gas, do a leak down test and maybe drive it a bit out of boost to see if the pistons clean up? I'm not going to get into boost if they don't, but as a last resort I figure I could try this. I'll be honest, if I pull this motor out I'm probably not going to want to put it back in LOL Been wanting to go late hemi ever since I started this and realized I boogered my old, simple, reliable setup all up with FITECH and the procharger lol
Last edited by 1mean340; 12/15/18 03:10 PM.
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Re: Pistons soaked?
[Re: 1mean340]
#2592419
12/15/18 05:13 PM
12/15/18 05:13 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,635 Oakland, MI
dizuster
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Oakland, MI
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If it leaks good, I wouldn't worry about the rings too much. I have a hard time believing it could wipe out the 2nd ring for oil control, but not the top rings for sealing. But if someone has seen that before, it'd would be an education for me.
When you say it won't work on the E85, what exactly is it doing. If it's running rich, you mean the wideband is showing rich, or you have some other perception of it being rich?
I'm not super familiar with the FiTech, but most EFI systems when the wideband is a ton off, will self correct. If you're not seeing it correct the AFR, then my guess is there is some sort of setting in the FiTech that's preventing it from doing so.
When you switch from gas to E85, what settings are you changing in the FiTech?
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