Converting fuel types. E85, E98, Methanol. Pros and Cons.
#2582872
11/25/18 04:58 PM
11/25/18 04:58 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,243 Charlotte, North Carolina
sgcuda
OP
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OP
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Posts: 4,243
Charlotte, North Carolina
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Due to my solid block, I want to change over from gasoline to keep the temps down. I'm going to convert my carbs, and run through a belt drive pump. I'm looking for advantages and disadvantages of using any of the ethanol or methanol fuels available. Any fuel I use will be more than likely purchased from VP, so yes, sealed containers to eliminate fuel quality deteriorations.
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Re: Converting fuel types. E85, E98, Methanol. Pros and Cons.
[Re: sgcuda]
#2582907
11/25/18 06:35 PM
11/25/18 06:35 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206 New York
polyspheric
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master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206
New York
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Methanol can run really rich without penalty (about 250% of gas volume, jetting accuracy need not be spot on, will run well near 5:1), most corrosive (can't leave fuel in the car), most power, tolerates high static and dynamic CR. Doesn't like to start cold, needs big pump, lines, regulator, filter etc. Very hygroscopic - every time the container is opened, air containing water vapor enters. Always use the smallest container you have. I've heard of using an inflatable bladder to fill the air space, but material? It eats aluminum, brass, Buna-n, calcium, copper, galvanized steel, lead, magnesium, neoprene, Nitrile, plastics, Plexiglas, potassium, rubber, shellac, varnish, zinc, and many paints. How about using CO2 or Argon (I think Nitrogen still has some water vapor?) to expel meth from the container? You may get away with a smaller (lighter, weight off the nose) radiator. Alcohol flames are nearly invisible, be sure your car has warnings for the safety crew.
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: Converting fuel types. E85, E98, Methanol. Pros and Cons.
[Re: sgcuda]
#2582917
11/25/18 06:53 PM
11/25/18 06:53 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,243 Charlotte, North Carolina
sgcuda
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Poly, all of the fuels will require some kind of flushing sequence figured into the maintenance program. Some of the new methanol fuels have anticorrosive lubricants added already to help slow down corrosion. (ie: VP's M3 fuel). A 5 gallon pail will probably be the right amount for 1 day of thrashing at the track, so no old fuel lying around. I did forget about the flame visibility problem. Good point. Warning stickers on the car look to be in order.
[image][/image]
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Re: Converting fuel types. E85, E98, Methanol. Pros and Cons.
[Re: sgcuda]
#2582958
11/25/18 07:56 PM
11/25/18 07:56 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,174 PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,174
PA.
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Man I can’t wait to read some of the responses from this post. Lol. Since I just had a post about alcohol recently I will butt out and enjoy.
1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: Converting fuel types. E85, E98, Methanol. Pros and Cons.
[Re: sgcuda]
#2583088
11/26/18 01:04 AM
11/26/18 01:04 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,000 Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,000
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
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I run methanol, use Klotz fuel lube, and apparantly am blessed by the fuel gods because i top off the tank, plug the vents, and leave it even over winter that way. I have had to rebuild my fuel system once,a year ago. First time for some of the parts since 1998. The big deal with methanol as i understand it is it will suck moisture out of the air, which allows oxygen to attack what ever it can. So if the fuel is not allowed access to air, and has Klotz in it, I personally have had good fortune. I like methanol for the extra power and tuning window, better than ethanol, MUCH better than gas. I did buy a primer plus system this year. I bought the plus system with a one gallon tank since i fully intend to use th system at all times but the run. If you run water through your heads i believe you can get by with a fairly small cooling system. Just off the top of my head i am thinking you might want to ask about heat buildup between the center two exhaust valves? I understand some motors get water plumbed into the heads below the center ports in circle track apps. It might not be a big deal in a drag motor Since i have been kept away from the track A LOT in the last few years, i have some jugs of methanol dated three years old that check ok, no significant water in them. Keep em capped and in a cool place.
Last edited by gregsdart; 11/26/18 01:07 AM.
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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Re: Converting fuel types. E85, E98, Methanol. Pros and Cons.
[Re: sgcuda]
#2583127
11/26/18 04:49 AM
11/26/18 04:49 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,181 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,181
Bend,OR USA
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I switch to E85 four years ago and still use it My bracket current car has two very small oil coolers for the radiator due to it being a blown methanol burning car that was towed all over at the race track except for the burn out and run before I bought it It runs very consistently from early morning to late afternoons and cools down quickly, I have to drive it around a lot more than I would on gasoline to get the coolant and oil temps up in the morning I do use the local pump E85 so your fuel deal will probably by be more consistent than my fuel supply
Last edited by Cab_Burge; 11/26/18 04:50 AM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Converting fuel types. E85, E98, Methanol. Pros and Cons.
[Re: sgcuda]
#2583162
11/26/18 12:01 PM
11/26/18 12:01 PM
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 714 Central TEXAS!!!!
sr4440
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 714
Central TEXAS!!!!
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if i was wanting to "keep temps down", I would run methanol because it has a 30% higher latent heat of vaporization.
for those of you that skipped or don't remember your HS science class, latent heat of vaporization is the amount of heat required to convert a unit mass of a liquid into vapor without a change in temperature.
Methanol has to remove more heat to change to a vapor.
Joe
Without Data, you’re just another guy with an opinion.
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Re: Converting fuel types. E85, E98, Methanol. Pros and Cons.
[Re: sgcuda]
#2583362
11/26/18 07:48 PM
11/26/18 07:48 PM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399 Aurora, Colorado
451Mopar
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Aurora, Colorado
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I played with E-85, and the engine did run cooler. I did not change out my old cellulose fuel filter, and the E-85 caused it to fall apart and get into the carb. I used that as an excuse to install the FiTech EFI, with new high pressure pump and stainless steel screen fuel filter. Currently running gasoline, but I might try out the EFI with the E-85 again. Just need to install the larger Walbro 450 lph pump that is good with E-85.
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Re: Converting fuel types. E85, E98, Methanol. Pros and Cons.
[Re: sgcuda]
#2583377
11/26/18 08:22 PM
11/26/18 08:22 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,097 back in Georgia
dthemi
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master
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back in Georgia
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The VP C85 is a very good compromise between gas, and meth. You get real cooling, but not so much that you can't get heat. Corrosion is negligible compared to meth. Half the cost of race gas, and makes more power than gas because of the O2 in the fuel. The C85 also has MTBE, as a further oxidizer.
Ive ran meth in carbs, and injected, and it is for sure the way to go if you're making big power where that's all that will work. Gas is too hot in the summer, and meth is a pain in winter. E or C85 works great in both.
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Re: Converting fuel types. E85, E98, Methanol. Pros and Cons.
[Re: sgcuda]
#2583407
11/26/18 09:30 PM
11/26/18 09:30 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206 New York
polyspheric
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master
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New York
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Since no one read this, I'll just take it down, m'kay?
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: Converting fuel types. E85, E98, Methanol. Pros and Cons.
[Re: sgcuda]
#2583432
11/26/18 10:50 PM
11/26/18 10:50 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,243 Charlotte, North Carolina
sgcuda
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OP
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My goal is to run upwards of 14:1 cr with as close to a flat top piston as possible. It shouldn't be too hard with a 4.560 bore and a 4.625 stroke. Once the heads are done, I'll see how much they can be milled to get the proper chamber cc's to run a flat top. I remember the MTBE additives from years ago. They (Ecology Police) finally figured out that while trying to save the birds and the frogs, they were causing cancer to us mere mortal humans. I'm thinking of starting out with VP M1, and maybe switch over to M3 once I get a handle on how methanol works.
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Re: Converting fuel types. E85, E98, Methanol. Pros and Cons.
[Re: sgcuda]
#2583449
11/26/18 11:15 PM
11/26/18 11:15 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,174 PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,174
PA.
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Man you guys run the good stuff. Lol. I like the 145.00-165.00 for 54 gallon stuff.
1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: Converting fuel types. E85, E98, Methanol. Pros and Cons.
[Re: sgcuda]
#2583507
11/27/18 01:07 AM
11/27/18 01:07 AM
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Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,096 Australia
ozymaxwedge
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,096
Australia
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Our next big block engine will be set for E85
1963 Plymouth Max Wedge 1971 Barracuda
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Re: Converting fuel types. E85, E98, Methanol. Pros and Cons.
[Re: sgcuda]
#2583508
11/27/18 01:10 AM
11/27/18 01:10 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,243 Charlotte, North Carolina
sgcuda
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OP
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I have heard either a Primer Plus system, or some guys use oil heaters to get some heat in the motor prior to fire up. With a solid block, warm up shouldn't be too hard, even on alky. Lol! Working with a close friend and expert on fuel systems to help with the carburetion calibrations.
I really appreciate everyones input on this. This is unknown territory for me, and I'm really looking forward to the challenge.
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Re: Converting fuel types. E85, E98, Methanol. Pros and Cons.
[Re: sgcuda]
#2583647
11/27/18 12:50 PM
11/27/18 12:50 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206 New York
polyspheric
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master
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New York
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it doesn't rely on atmospheric oxygen like gas How does that work?
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: Converting fuel types. E85, E98, Methanol. Pros and Cons.
[Re: polyspheric]
#2584447
11/28/18 11:24 PM
11/28/18 11:24 PM
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Joined: May 2016
Posts: 630 Ct
Wirenut
mopar
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mopar
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Posts: 630
Ct
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it doesn't rely on atmospheric oxygen like gas How does that work? Sorry if I wasn't exact with my statement. Methanol is an oxygenate, meaning it has oxygen in it. Changes in the atmosphere, don't effect like gasoline.
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