Engine condition Opinions?
#2492371
05/05/18 11:32 AM
05/05/18 11:32 AM
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Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 195 Coastal Maine
Mr onetwo
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Coastal Maine
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Hey guys, here are some photos of the engine from my 1978 Dodge Ramcharger.It all looks pretty good to me.I have very little money and just want a good running stock-ish motor.If the pistons and bores look ok do you think I can just button it back up with new gaskets and call it good?I will be putting in a Hughes "whiplash" can and converting to Fitech fuel injection.It's getting a new oil pump and water pump for sure.It did not have steel shim head gaskets in it and it has flat top pistons....would this have been stock in 1978?Thanks for your help!
Last edited by Mr onetwo; 05/05/18 11:35 AM.
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Re: Engine condition Opinions?
[Re: Mr onetwo]
#2492408
05/05/18 01:12 PM
05/05/18 01:12 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
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How many miles on the engine.. do you have equipment to measure the bores.. it might need valve springs and a valve job
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Re: Engine condition Opinions?
[Re: Mr onetwo]
#2492427
05/05/18 01:48 PM
05/05/18 01:48 PM
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 3,809 Arlington, Texas
bobby66
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Looks like a pretty good ridge at the top of the bores. Are you going to hone it for new rings?
Last edited by bobby66; 05/05/18 01:49 PM.
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Re: Engine condition Opinions?
[Re: Mr onetwo]
#2492453
05/05/18 03:10 PM
05/05/18 03:10 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
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HemiRick
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See the tan exhaust valve on the end of the head? They should ALL look like that one....those other cylinders were not getting hot enough, indicating poor compression or not firing for some reason.....I would have serious doubts about just putting this back together and hoping it was good.
Take care, Rick 68 Coronet R/T 440 & 68 Charger 528 Hemi,and 5 Challengers! 6 cyl, 318, 360, 383, 451
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Re: Engine condition Opinions?
[Re: HemiRick]
#2492559
05/05/18 10:02 PM
05/05/18 10:02 PM
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Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 195 Coastal Maine
Mr onetwo
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Any tips on pulling the main bearing caps?The fsm calls for a C3059 removal tool, but there are none to rent.I punched out all the freeze plugs in the block and it was full of this grey sludge.Maybe I should just pull all the pistons and the cam, then send the crank,block and heads to the machine shop to be checked out.I do want to do this correctly, just don't have thousands of dollars to spend.I have posted a picture of the back of the dampner...it is ruined or salvageable?I did find mention of the "Maltese cross plus X" stamped on the engine pad,in the FSM and will alert the machine shop.
Last edited by Mr onetwo; 05/05/18 10:05 PM.
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Re: Engine condition Opinions?
[Re: Mr onetwo]
#2492575
05/05/18 11:00 PM
05/05/18 11:00 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,789 A collage of whims
topside
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I'd go with numbering rods, pull the motor apart looking everything over carefully, and having a qualified machine shop measure everything, to find out where you're at now. What's that orange stuff in the valley? Looks like a pretty big ridge in the bores, also maybe issues with oil consumption & leakage. Dampener rubber ring looks rotted. '78 would have low CR, and I'd definitely bump that to a real 9:1. To me, that increase in efficiency & torque is more important than having a rumpity cam in an SUV. Compare price to rebuild the heads (valve job, guides/seals/springs) vs aftermarket Stealths/Eddys/etc - last set of Stealths I bought were from an unbuilt project, there are some deals out there. By the same token, every Eddy & Stealth head I've had got some more work done, but some guys are happy with 'em out of the box. Your crank & rods should be OK with little work.
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Re: Engine condition Opinions?
[Re: Mr onetwo]
#2492584
05/05/18 11:16 PM
05/05/18 11:16 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,255 IL
furious70
top fuel
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top fuel
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IMO the most affordable way forward is someone else's running engine.
70 Sport Fury 68 Charger 69 Coronet 72 RR
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Re: Engine condition Opinions?
[Re: Mr onetwo]
#2492592
05/05/18 11:30 PM
05/05/18 11:30 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,841 MI, usa
dvw
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Who cares about all the stamping numbers? in the real world they mean nothing. 2 ways to go. Add the cam and hope for the best, or. Measure and then decide what'll fly and what won't. To me the bore finish doesn't look that great. I'd bet at a minimum it needs a timing chain, maybe bearings and valve springs. Very probable; guides and valve work. And if we're getting picky bore, hone, pistons, rings, rod rebuild crank turn, balance. Now will it run without? Yes. Will it make max power? No. Will it blow up? Maybe. Here's where someone with a LOT of experience can take a look and give a guess. And that all it is, a guess. You can clean it up and add a cam, springs, timing chain, valve springs. If it fails, the cost outlay is minimal. Or you can spend and it will be better. How much better? Depends how bad the current stuff is. Doug
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Re: Engine condition Opinions?
[Re: Mr onetwo]
#2492619
05/06/18 12:26 AM
05/06/18 12:26 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,214 Someplace you aren't
SomeCarGuy
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Why did you open it up? Most I’d have done was throw a chain in it, probably do all gaskets if it was out. You really cant win a game like this. Looks like it needs a basic rebuild and a low comp 440 needs pistons to really do what you want any way. I always tell guys not to mess with a running engine. Most people are way better off adding some oil every so often or a can of restore than doing a tear down without a plan for a full reboot in there.
I want my fair share
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Re: Engine condition Opinions?
[Re: Mr onetwo]
#2492621
05/06/18 12:32 AM
05/06/18 12:32 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
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Any tips on pulling the main bearing caps? loosen the bolts & hold em halfway up in the cap then wiggle the assy sideways & up as they loosen & come free. You dont want bolt thread protruding past the cap bolt hole bases so as to not nick the crank journal when the cap comes free. wiggle it back & forth carefully & take more care when you sense it is about to come free (nicking the journal is what you are trying to avoid). get 1/2/4/5 out then lift one end of the crank slightly to get the #3 cap starting to come up then work with it till it gets free. Reminds me that I am going to drill/tap my next one on top for threads so I can slide hammer em out
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Engine condition Opinions?
[Re: Mr onetwo]
#2492741
05/06/18 12:08 PM
05/06/18 12:08 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,092 Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
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The main problem with those late model big blocks is that they had very low compression. The pistons were way down in the hole. And that made them very prone to detonation even on the gas you could get then.
And I agree that the pistons and heads look like they have not been burning clean.
Use the money that you would have spent on the FI on the inside of the engine now and get a good carb like the Street Demon. You can always add the FI later if you want. It will be better and cheaper by then.
Master, again and still
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Re: Engine condition Opinions?
[Re: topside]
#2493069
05/07/18 03:43 AM
05/07/18 03:43 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
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Cab_Burge
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Mopar has always numbered the rods and main caps as long as I have been taking them apart, starting with the mid 1950 Chrysler Fire Power hemi motors GM didn't though OP, on your deal that motor is talking to you, it is hollering for some serious help Your on the correct path on taking it to a good machine shop for measuring the cylinder bores for wear and taper. I would bet a lot of money that the heads need new valve guides and a valve job also, sorry Good luck on this project, do it right once or regret it forever BTW, if your going to have it bored look for pistons for the 1972 to 1974 400 magnum motors or look at some decent Hyper quench pistons from Keith Black
Last edited by Cab_Burge; 05/07/18 03:45 AM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Engine condition Opinions?
[Re: dizuster]
#2493855
05/09/18 04:47 AM
05/09/18 04:47 AM
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Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 195 Coastal Maine
Mr onetwo
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Pulled the pistons last night and cleaned the bores.The ridge isn't as bad as it looks in the pictures.The crank journals look perfect and the rods seem ok although 1 is a bit tight.Will get the taper and wear measured by a machinist today.Do you guys have any other recommendations on what stock pistons would be best for better compression?I am going to try and find the best used set of pistons I can to save money.Thanks!
Last edited by Mr onetwo; 05/09/18 04:48 AM.
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Re: Engine condition Opinions?
[Re: Mr onetwo]
#2494048
05/09/18 05:38 PM
05/09/18 05:38 PM
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Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 288 NW Illinois
MoonshineMattK
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Any tips on pulling the main bearing caps?The fsm calls for a C3059 removal tool, but there are none to rent.I punched out all the freeze plugs in the block and it was full of this grey sludge.Maybe I should just pull all the pistons and the cam, then send the crank,block and heads to the machine shop to be checked out.I do want to do this correctly, just don't have thousands of dollars to spend.I have posted a picture of the back of the dampner...it is ruined or salvageable?I did find mention of the "Maltese cross plus X" stamped on the engine pad,in the FSM and will alert the machine shop. Maltese cross and X are factory undersize crank
Last edited by MoonshineMattK; 05/10/18 03:40 AM.
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Re: Engine condition Opinions?
[Re: Porter67]
#2494140
05/09/18 10:32 PM
05/09/18 10:32 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,092 Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
Special needs idiot
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I think alot forget what we used to do and had a heck of a good time doing it. That may be true, but we have different fuels today and different expectations.
Master, again and still
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Re: Engine condition Opinions?
[Re: dogdays]
#2494441
05/10/18 04:35 PM
05/10/18 04:35 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318 Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo
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The head gaskets make me uneasy because I don't think they're stock, meaning someone has been in the engine before.
Someone's been in there before, no doubt about that. A set of TRW 2355's would bump up the compression and weigh close enough to stock pistons that you could think about squeeking by without balancing. They would be a good choice if you were looking at an aftermarket closed chambered head. A rumpety cam like that hughes whiplash really has no place in a truck with efi and a low-cr engine.
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Re: Engine condition Opinions?
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#2494483
05/10/18 06:29 PM
05/10/18 06:29 PM
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Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 195 Coastal Maine
Mr onetwo
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The head gaskets make me uneasy because I don't think they're stock, meaning someone has been in the engine before.
Someone's been in there before, no doubt about that. A set of TRW 2355's would bump up the compression and weigh close enough to stock pistons that you could think about squeeking by without balancing. They would be a good choice if you were looking at an aftermarket closed chambered head. A rumpety cam like that hughes whiplash really has no place in a truck with efi and a low-cr engine. I thought that was the express purpose for the whiplash cam....to wake up a low compression smog motor like mine?
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Re: Engine condition Opinions?
[Re: Mr onetwo]
#2494811
05/11/18 04:15 PM
05/11/18 04:15 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,020 U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
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Pulled the pistons last night and cleaned the bores.The ridge isn't as bad as it looks in the pictures.The crank journals look perfect and the rods seem ok although 1 is a bit tight.Will get the taper and wear measured by a machinist today.Do you guys have any other recommendations on what stock pistons would be best for better compression?I am going to try and find the best used set of pistons I can to save money.Thanks! You have to have the ridge removed if you want to put in a taller CH piston in there, otherwise it might break piston rings.
running up my post count some more .
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Re: Engine condition Opinions?
[Re: Mr onetwo]
#2494820
05/11/18 05:07 PM
05/11/18 05:07 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318 Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo
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I thought that was the express purpose for the whiplash cam....to wake up a low compression smog motor like mine? Yes but in a car with 4.10 gears not a 4x4. The whiplash cams are ground for low vacuum at idle and a rumpety idle for more show than go. Not usually a good choice for an efi system.
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Re: Engine condition Opinions?
[Re: ccdave]
#2497642
05/18/18 06:52 PM
05/18/18 06:52 PM
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Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 195 Coastal Maine
Mr onetwo
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I stopped into the machine shop today and got good and bad news.The block needs to be bored, but everything else is in really great shape.The crank is not undersized as the stamping indicates and the heads have already been done at some point.Valves and springs look new, seats were all good and guides are all within spec.Now I need advice on which pistons to get.1978 stock silv-o-lites, 1967 higher compression 350NP-30's, KB184's or maybe speedpro forged....I don't know.Will get new stock pushrods and the stock rockers look fine.This is all about budget.I want a nice running motor, but not a dog.I need low compression cam advice too!
Last edited by Mr onetwo; 05/18/18 06:53 PM.
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Re: Engine condition Opinions?
[Re: Mr onetwo]
#2497785
05/19/18 03:10 AM
05/19/18 03:10 AM
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Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 195 Coastal Maine
Mr onetwo
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What would the specs on a proper RV type cam be for a motor with around 9 to 1 compression? Sorry for my ignorance on cam selection.Falcon has this cam for $85 ...any good?
Last edited by Mr onetwo; 05/19/18 03:12 AM.
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Re: Engine condition Opinions?
[Re: Mr onetwo]
#2497788
05/19/18 03:53 AM
05/19/18 03:53 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
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Circle Track
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I am leaning towards the Speed Pro L2266F30 set with Hastings moly rings for around $395 @ Summit. I can get a set of 350NP-30 with iron rings @ Falcon Global for $315.Is forged with moly rings overkill on a stock low budget rebuilt motor? yes overkill, this is a low RPM truck torque build. I would suggest some eBay cast cheapies/moly rings or kb hypers (which are way better but more $$) and you need more compression which the KB's would give you & you likely could get quench if you go with some aftermarket closed chamber heads & carefull measureing & as said heads are gonna be the big expense on this as rebuilding a set of iron stockers can approach a set of aluminum aftermarket ones (stealths) tho you might be able to get by with a valve job (odds ain't good) & are they flat tho with composition head gaskets you can have a bit of warp & they lower your already low SCR as opposed to the OE steel shim thin head gaskets. I would get some plasma moly rings (& cast pistons off of eBay) & after the shop bores/hones, you do a quick hone with a Brush Research Manufacturing dingle berry hone for moly rings and your bore size or have them do it (its worth it).
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Engine condition Opinions?
[Re: Mr onetwo]
#2497815
05/19/18 10:57 AM
05/19/18 10:57 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 277 MN
Willie68coronet
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I am leaning towards the Speed Pro L2266F30 set with Hastings moly rings for around $395 @ Summit. I can get a set of 350NP-30 with iron rings @ Falcon Global for $315.Is forged with moly rings overkill on a stock low budget rebuilt motor? I think those are the flat top no valve relief pistons that have a really short compression height. Look into wisco pro tru street. Comes with moly rings and the price will be close to the 2266 with rings. here: wiseco summit Won't be zero deck but a lot closer than the 2266's.
'68 Coronet 500 w/ Indy EZ-1 headed 446, 727 trans, 9" rear First day at the track with SUV street tires and no traction: 1.688 60', 7.24 @ 101.79 in the 1/8 mile
Great customer service from: DominicThumper Carbs, B3 racing engines, Porter Racing Engines, A-1 torque converter's, Quick Performance, Racer Brown Cams, R&R Performance, Manton pushrods
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Re: Engine condition Opinions?
[Re: ccdave]
#2497830
05/19/18 12:08 PM
05/19/18 12:08 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,092 Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
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If you change pistons, it really should be re-balanced. And new rod bolts and resizing the rods is also a very good idea. There goes a few hundred dollars.
How far out of spec are the cylinder bores? Keeping in mind that the budget is the prime motivator, why not just re-ring it?
If the cylinders aren't a train wreck, you might think about a hone job and throwing some new rings in along with new bearings and calling it good.
Way back when, we used to do that all the time. I remember knurling pistons that were way out of spec for the cylinders. It worked well in low speed applications. You can get several years out of a cheapy job like that if the pistons don't flop around in the cylinders too much. And of course, they make rings just for this.
It might be best to either do a full-on economy assembly or a full-on re-build. Not something in between.
Master, again and still
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Re: Engine condition Opinions?
[Re: DaveRS23]
#2497840
05/19/18 12:27 PM
05/19/18 12:27 PM
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Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 195 Coastal Maine
Mr onetwo
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If you change pistons, it really should be re-balanced. And new rod bolts and resizing the rods is also a very good idea. There goes a few hundred dollars.
How far out of spec are the cylinder bores? Keeping in mind that the budget is the prime motivator, why not just re-ring it?
If the cylinders aren't a train wreck, you might think about a hone job and throwing some new rings in along with new bearings and calling it good.
Way back when, we used to do that all the time. I remember knurling pistons that were way out of spec for the cylinders. It worked well in low speed applications. You can get several years out of a cheapy job like that if the pistons don't flop around in the cylinders too much. And of course, they make rings just for this.
It might be best to either do a full-on economy assembly or a full-on re-build. Not something in between. Budget I just wanna drive my truck a bit this year!The guy said it was just inside .007 spec is .005 to .007 I guess.I would love to do exactly as you say Dave.I will call them Monday morning. i can save a bunch of money by using Enginetech bearings as opposed to Clevite 77...thoughts?
Last edited by Mr onetwo; 05/19/18 12:44 PM.
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Re: Engine condition Opinions?
[Re: Mr onetwo]
#2497935
05/19/18 06:21 PM
05/19/18 06:21 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206 New York
polyspheric
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master
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New York
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Skip the EFI, put the money inside the engine.
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: Engine condition Opinions?
[Re: Mr onetwo]
#2498010
05/19/18 10:03 PM
05/19/18 10:03 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,092 Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
Special needs idiot
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Special needs idiot
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Benton, IL.
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If you change pistons, it really should be re-balanced. And new rod bolts and resizing the rods is also a very good idea. There goes a few hundred dollars.
How far out of spec are the cylinder bores? Keeping in mind that the budget is the prime motivator, why not just re-ring it?
If the cylinders aren't a train wreck, you might think about a hone job and throwing some new rings in along with new bearings and calling it good.
Way back when, we used to do that all the time. I remember knurling pistons that were way out of spec for the cylinders. It worked well in low speed applications. You can get several years out of a cheapy job like that if the pistons don't flop around in the cylinders too much. And of course, they make rings just for this.
It might be best to either do a full-on economy assembly or a full-on re-build. Not something in between. Budget I just wanna drive my truck a bit this year!The guy said it was just inside .007 spec is .005 to .007 I guess.I would love to do exactly as you say Dave.I will call them Monday morning. i can save a bunch of money by using Enginetech bearings as opposed to Clevite 77...thoughts? Good oil, proper clearances, and low RPM doesn't require premium parts to live.
Master, again and still
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Re: Engine condition Opinions?
[Re: Mr onetwo]
#2498124
05/20/18 08:13 AM
05/20/18 08:13 AM
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carnut68
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As stated the 2266 piston is terrible. They will be at least.060 -.080 in the hole. With an iron open chamber head thats a bad combo. No compression no quench. It'll run but it won't be efficient. You should try to get a piston with a 2.060- 2.065 compression hgt. Get your short block together then pic your cam. Do it right or you may pay later. Ask me how I know..
America First!
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Re: Engine condition Opinions?
[Re: Mr onetwo]
#2498173
05/20/18 12:09 PM
05/20/18 12:09 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,092 Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
Special needs idiot
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That is certainly a mild cam. Why not just us a stock, original cam? There are a lot of them lying around and they have proven themselves to be very reliable.
Master, again and still
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Re: Engine condition Opinions?
[Re: DaveRS23]
#2498186
05/20/18 12:37 PM
05/20/18 12:37 PM
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Mr onetwo
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I am going to get the Summit SUM-6400 cam and lifter kit as it is better than stock and you can't beat the price at $117.My question is how should I install the cam for my application...straight up or advanced?Also, it is a cast crank motor...what should I do about balancing?I don't have the rods yet, but when they arrive I will weigh both new and old assemblies and post up the difference.Also any thoughts on what I should do about a distributor and the ignition timing.Thanks in advance for your help!
Last edited by Mr onetwo; 05/26/18 06:52 AM.
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Re: Engine condition Opinions?
[Re: Mr onetwo]
#2500805
05/26/18 09:50 PM
05/26/18 09:50 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,193 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
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Last edited by Cab_Burge; 05/26/18 09:51 PM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Engine condition Opinions?
[Re: Mr onetwo]
#2500961
05/27/18 11:47 AM
05/27/18 11:47 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,193 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
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I Win
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Bend,OR USA
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Thank you Mr.Cab, any thoughts on balancing? I would have it done by a good shop There are two different weights involve in rotating assembly, the individual and total weights of each reciprocating and rotating parts and the rotational weights of the components, this is probably not the correct terms to describe what I mean but if you don't own or have access to a good automotive balancing machine have a good shop balance the rotating assembly for you
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Engine condition Opinions?
[Re: Mr onetwo]
#2506517
06/10/18 11:14 AM
06/10/18 11:14 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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cam bearings only need a 1/16" dia lube hole so if you have that much area left from how they clocked em you are fine but it would make me wonder about their meticulousness cuz that operation is a no brainer. any more than that is a waste of precious psi & the as produced cam bearing drilled hole is much bigger than 1/16" (the 2 that feed the heads-1/8" needed).
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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