CM cage
#2462209
03/06/18 09:02 PM
03/06/18 09:02 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,449 Martinsville, IN
cdwmotorsports
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Martinsville, IN
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I currently have a MS cage in my Demon and am wanting to switch to a CM for smaller diameter bars. I have seen pics of cars with CM cages tied into the stock chassis and I am wondering how one does that. I can only presume the chassis is MS and that the CM cage is welded to it directly.
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Re: CM cage
[Re: cdwmotorsports]
#2462219
03/06/18 09:14 PM
03/06/18 09:14 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,566 Motor City
6PKRTSE
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Motor City
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Look at my "Coming To A Strip Near You 25.5 Challenger post. Obviously,mine is an E Body but same principle for your car. My chassis and full cage is all c.m. and is ran through all the stock floors and firewall.
Last edited by 6PKRTSE; 03/06/18 09:14 PM.
1963 Belvedere 440 Max Wedge Tribute 1970 Charger R/T S.E. 440 Six Pack 1970 Challenger R/T, 528 Hemi 1970 Charger 500 S.E. 440 4 BBL 1970 Plymouth Road Runner 383 1974 Chrysler New Yorker 440 1996 2500 RAM 488 V-10 4X4 2004 3500 Dually Cummins 4x4 2012 Challenger R/T Classic.
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Re: CM cage
[Re: cdwmotorsports]
#2462280
03/06/18 10:33 PM
03/06/18 10:33 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,552 Fulton County, PA
CMcAllister
Mr. Helpful
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Mr. Helpful
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,552
Fulton County, PA
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You may have MS frame ties or you may be looking at getting it welded to stock floors or frame rails. That is acceptable, the rule says any weld that affects CM needs to be TIG. MS to CM, CM to MS and CM to CM are all TIGed. Beyond that, rules for construction are pretty much the same until you get to an SFI certified situation. The rule book is pretty detailed in it's requirements.
Also, using ChromeMoly instead of Mild Steel doesn't allow you to use smaller diameter bars. Just reduced wall thickness. Doing a cage instead of a bar allows you to use 1.625 instead of 1.750 diameter.
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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Re: CM cage
[Re: CMcAllister]
#2462523
03/07/18 01:08 PM
03/07/18 01:08 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,566 Motor City
6PKRTSE
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Another thing is resale. A moly car will always be able to bring more $$$ over a M.S. car due it being able to cert or re-cert & usually less weight when compared to the amount of bars each car would have.
1963 Belvedere 440 Max Wedge Tribute 1970 Charger R/T S.E. 440 Six Pack 1970 Challenger R/T, 528 Hemi 1970 Charger 500 S.E. 440 4 BBL 1970 Plymouth Road Runner 383 1974 Chrysler New Yorker 440 1996 2500 RAM 488 V-10 4X4 2004 3500 Dually Cummins 4x4 2012 Challenger R/T Classic.
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Re: CM cage
[Re: polyspheric]
#2463548
03/09/18 02:35 AM
03/09/18 02:35 AM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,449 Martinsville, IN
cdwmotorsports
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No one reads anything but their own post. Actually I did read your post, and regarding your statement about roll bar vs cage being the determining factor in bar size. I appreciate the correction. I however currently have a cage so in this instance it does allow for me to go to a smaller diameter bar. Thanks for your original input
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Re: CM cage
[Re: cdwmotorsports]
#2463550
03/09/18 02:39 AM
03/09/18 02:39 AM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,449 Martinsville, IN
cdwmotorsports
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6PKRTSE, I have owned the car since 94, she ain’t going anywhere. Even if it only stays a street car. A lot of great people have helped me since I was a dumb 19 year old kid on this car and no less than two of them are no longer here.i have the trunk flooring and the windshield bars I want to change so now seems like the best time to change it all.
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Re: CM cage
[Re: polyspheric]
#2463773
03/09/18 03:15 PM
03/09/18 03:15 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696 Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
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No one reads anything but their own post. Not always, especially when you have yourself on "ignore".
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: CM cage
[Re: cdwmotorsports]
#2463791
03/09/18 03:35 PM
03/09/18 03:35 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,363 Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Posts: 19,363
Las Vegas
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As pointed out the only thing to consider is where welding of moly is concerned is the moly tube HAS to be tig welded in place. You will see a minor weight savings from MS to Moly n a simple cage. It wont be a ton of weight to be sure but some. I also prefer outriggers over plates on the floor
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: CM cage
[Re: dvw]
#2463793
03/09/18 03:35 PM
03/09/18 03:35 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,552 Fulton County, PA
CMcAllister
Mr. Helpful
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Mr. Helpful
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,552
Fulton County, PA
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I personally don't like installing a bar or cage on a 50 year old floor pan. Outriggers to a plated rocker make way more sense to me. Doug I've always preferred to do it this way. I like to use 2x3 and section it up into the floor, sit the bars onto - or into - it above the floor, tying the chassis, cage and floorpan all together. This as opposed to the outrigger being under the floor with the floor trimmed around the bars. The 2x3 can be mitered and made to fit nice and clean. Most people think this is too much work, but it makes the car safer and stiffer.
Last edited by CMcAllister; 03/09/18 03:37 PM.
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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Re: CM cage
[Re: cdwmotorsports]
#2463814
03/09/18 03:58 PM
03/09/18 03:58 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206 New York
polyspheric
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New York
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My point was that when people who weren't interested enough to post correct information assume that no one else has, they're just wasting my time.
My new rule: assume everyone already knows everything, and never makes mistakes. Yup, that'll work.
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: CM cage
[Re: cdwmotorsports]
#2463831
03/09/18 04:19 PM
03/09/18 04:19 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,552 Fulton County, PA
CMcAllister
Mr. Helpful
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Mr. Helpful
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,552
Fulton County, PA
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And a note on Mild Steel, it's not all the same. ERW is a welded seam tube, typically made from 1010 steel. It's cheap and the wall thickness is hit or miss, which is why people have to use heavy .134 wall stuff to make sure it passes tech.
DOM is much more accurate and typically made with 1020. Usually you can use .120 wall with a .118 minimum spec safely.
ERW is really crap. Running a drill bit through both materials really shows the difference in them. Both are considered mild steel, costs are different.
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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Re: CM cage
[Re: cudaman1969]
#2463952
03/09/18 08:15 PM
03/09/18 08:15 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,552 Fulton County, PA
CMcAllister
Mr. Helpful
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Mr. Helpful
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Fulton County, PA
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Sheet metal is just hanging there, but like my inspector said, you have two cages, body and roll cage. Exactly. The formed sheet metal body is also a stiff and substantial structure. Use it. With some planning, the body and the new chassis/cage can be made to support and reinforce each other, making the assembly stronger than if the body was just along for the ride. Tie them together, beyond the mounting points called for to get the cage in the car, to create one assembly
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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Re: CM cage
[Re: CMcAllister]
#2464267
03/10/18 01:31 PM
03/10/18 01:31 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,255 fredericksburg,va
cudaman1969
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Sheet metal is just hanging there, but like my inspector said, you have two cages, body and roll cage. Exactly. The formed sheet metal body is also a stiff and substantial structure. Use it. With some planning, the body and the new chassis/cage can be made to support and reinforce each other, making the assembly stronger than if the body was just along for the ride. Tie them together, beyond the mounting points called for to get the cage in the car, to create one assembly You said it better than me, thanks
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Re: CM cage
[Re: polyspheric]
#2464920
03/11/18 08:50 PM
03/11/18 08:50 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,449 Martinsville, IN
cdwmotorsports
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My point was that when people who weren't interested enough to post correct information assume that no one else has, they're just wasting my time.
My new rule: assume everyone already knows everything, and never makes mistakes. Yup, that'll work. I’m not sure who you are referring to, however I have noted on numerous occasions rather than interject positive helpful replies you post your feelings and then get butt hurt when not everyone agrees with you. My statement is correct, going to a CM cage allows me to use smaller bars, why because I have a MS 10pt cage already. So you assuming you know everything about my car gets old. So please do us all a favor and either start posting useful info or just don’t post. I don’t have time for you getting all butt hurt.
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Re: CM cage
[Re: polyspheric]
#2465067
03/12/18 02:38 AM
03/12/18 02:38 AM
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 3,036 bean town ....Ca
WHITEDART
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bean town ....Ca
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My mistake, I didn't realize how important you are. another useless statement.. what's up with the personal attacks..
In the 8s N/A.with Brett miller W8's 5.07 at 133 at 2700lb
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Re: CM cage
[Re: WHITEDART]
#2465068
03/12/18 02:44 AM
03/12/18 02:44 AM
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 19,317 State of confusion
Thumperdart
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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State of confusion
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My mistake, I didn't realize how important you are. another useless statement.. what's up with the personal attacks.. Agree, another guy w/no car and who THINKS he's smarter than everyone else.....
72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
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Re: CM cage
[Re: Jeremiah]
#2465303
03/12/18 05:23 PM
03/12/18 05:23 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,449 Martinsville, IN
cdwmotorsports
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Thanks for the pictures Doug. I appreciate the real world perspective. While theory is nice seeing practical applications in living color really helps and gives me hope that my project will turn out (half) as good.
Oh, and my feeling is also hurt because nobody bowed down and thanked me for my ambiguous post filled with information you didn't ask for lol.
Also, to answer your original question - you can use mild steel 2xwhatever for outriggers and utilize your MIG to tack the CM together and it won't hurt. The TIG process will use mild steel filler rod so it will be compatible for lack of better terms. Jeremiah, your info was useful I’m not sure why you felt as though you should’ve been included.
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Re: CM cage
[Re: dvw]
#2465305
03/12/18 05:26 PM
03/12/18 05:26 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,449 Martinsville, IN
cdwmotorsports
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Much easier to remove a section of the floor. Weld in the cage and outriggers. Then trim and weld the floor cutouts back in. Doug Doug, I greatly appreciate the pictures. If you could I would like to see pics of how it’s all laid out on the bottom side. I’m pretty sure we put the cross bars from the 2x4 box frame connectors in the floor by the rear seat but I’m almost 100% sure we didn’t do them up front. Headed out to look now.
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Re: CM cage
[Re: cdwmotorsports]
#2465589
03/13/18 12:58 AM
03/13/18 12:58 AM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 9,099 Rogue River, OR
Jeremiah
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Rogue River, OR
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Thanks for the pictures Doug. I appreciate the real world perspective. While theory is nice seeing practical applications in living color really helps and gives me hope that my project will turn out (half) as good.
Oh, and my feeling is also hurt because nobody bowed down and thanked me for my ambiguous post filled with information you didn't ask for lol.
Also, to answer your original question - you can use mild steel 2xwhatever for outriggers and utilize your MIG to tack the CM together and it won't hurt. The TIG process will use mild steel filler rod so it will be compatible for lack of better terms. Jeremiah, your info was useful I’m not sure why you felt as though you should’ve been included. I'm just messing with you buddy lol. Please take my middle comment with much sarcasm.
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Re: CM cage
[Re: cdwmotorsports]
#2465815
03/13/18 03:25 PM
03/13/18 03:25 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,552 Fulton County, PA
CMcAllister
Mr. Helpful
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Mr. Helpful
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,552
Fulton County, PA
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As long as the driver is inside of that 1.625 cage, they aren't fussy about fit when it comes to cert. Take the time to get the bars fitted out and up close to the doors and body, out of the line of sight out the windshield, etc. When you can't see the tree because of the A pillar bar, or don't fit in the car, it's too late once it's welded.
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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Re: CM cage
[Re: FastmOp]
#2465882
03/13/18 05:13 PM
03/13/18 05:13 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,174 PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,174
PA.
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After 44 years of racing and having cars certified to 7.50 I finally made the big time and have a chrome moly cage in one. Who knows what’s next for me.
1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: CM cage
[Re: FastmOp]
#2465956
03/13/18 07:24 PM
03/13/18 07:24 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
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Master
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Romeo MI
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I'd have the bars come back along the top of the door then have them bend in at the hoop I like to keep all the bars as straight as possible so a slight angle at the main hoop will get you out to where you need at the A pillar.. straight bars are stronger
Last edited by MR_P_BODY; 03/13/18 07:30 PM.
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