Re: A518 full manual issues!
[Re: Charged392]
#2458154
02/26/18 11:21 PM
02/26/18 11:21 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,028 Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
Special needs idiot
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Special needs idiot
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,028
Benton, IL.
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I tried installing the Transgo full-manual shift kit in my 518. Couldn't get it to work right. So I had A&A build me a forward manual valve body with a couple of custom touches.
Works like a dream.
As to the 2-3 overlap. I have struggled with that on 727s and 518s for years. After trying a bunch of different things suggested by the experts, I have found only ONE sure-fire way to get the 2-3 overlap out.
Use the Dorman 3/8" expansion plugs (#555-115) in the clutch passage. Start with a .090" hole. There will likely be a 2-3 flair-up . Then open the hole up a couple thousandths at a time until the flair is gone. Numbered drill bits #43 to #38 are handy for this.
If you go too far and need to back up, just run a screw into the hole and pull it out with a claw hammer.
Now, it is a very fine line between a small flair at WOT and the light throttle bang of slight overlap. You may have to choose between the two as I have had instances where I couldn't get all the light throttle slap out without having a little WOT flair or vice versa.
Master, again and still
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Re: A518 full manual issues!
[Re: A727Tflite]
#2458188
02/27/18 12:02 AM
02/27/18 12:02 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,028 Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
Special needs idiot
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Special needs idiot
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,028
Benton, IL.
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Transman, you may not understand why some of us resort to restrictions to cure flair or overlap, but it is quick and effective. Any other fix is usually much more difficult, but no more effective.
With the higher line pressures, and modified valve bodies being run today, the varied combinations guarantees that there will be some cases of 2-3 timing issues and 1-2/2-3 shift splits.
Heck, even the shift kits come with a restriction for that very reason.
If a customer comes to you with either a flair or light throttle clunks, how do you address it if you don't use a restriction?
Master, again and still
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Re: A518 full manual issues!
[Re: dizuster]
#2458225
02/27/18 01:50 AM
02/27/18 01:50 AM
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Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 9 Florida
Charged392
OP
member
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OP
member
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 9
Florida
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The only normal way 1/2 can overlap is if the low/reverse band is stuck on. But it's obviously not because it's overlapping 2/3 also which has nothing to do with the low/reverse band. It almost sounds like its got a loose or cracked valve body that it's applying throttle pressure to the back side of the shuttle valves for the shifts, but that's odd too since it sounds like you have the kickdown lever tied in one position.
Give the board some time, there are some smart guys on here, they may just not check the forum every single day. Yes lever is tied at 80% range this weekend I was planning to try and move it to 100% and see if that does anything.
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Re: A518 full manual issues!
[Re: A727Tflite]
#2458319
02/27/18 12:35 PM
02/27/18 12:35 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,028 Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
Special needs idiot
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Special needs idiot
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,028
Benton, IL.
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How about a few questions for the restrictor resister?
What is the down side of using a restriction in the front clutch port?
Is the only alternative tranny disassembly?
Why don't the shift kits offer any alternative to the restictor they include?
And your carb analogy is flawed because a) the alternative is not a fix for the original problem and b) the alternative creates other problems.
Master, again and still
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Re: A518 full manual issues!
[Re: A727Tflite]
#2458472
02/27/18 05:09 PM
02/27/18 05:09 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,028 Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
Special needs idiot
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Special needs idiot
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,028
Benton, IL.
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Transman, your way may well be much better than the way I, Transgo, Fairbanks, etc, etc do it.
But guess what? Your way is a secret. So we haven't been able to do a comparison.
I, for one, am open minded to new and better ways of doing things. Which is why I have a 518 rather than a 727, in my Cuda.
The only reasons I support the restriction is because it works every time, and because I do not know of a better alternative. You have the opportunity here to change may mind.
Why don't you share the details of your better overlap fix, so that we can try it and assess it for ourselves?
And I didn't misread your post, I was just pointing out why I agreed with you that you used a poor analogy.
Master, again and still
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Re: A518 full manual issues!
[Re: Charged392]
#2458496
02/27/18 05:57 PM
02/27/18 05:57 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,635 Oakland, MI
dizuster
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,635
Oakland, MI
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I'm not sure how anyone would know which springs to tell you to change to in this imaginary overlap scenario? Every combo is different depending on the parts/clearances you use will require different springs for shift timing.
If 2/3 is overlapping, then the front clutch is coming on faster then the 2nd gear band is releasing. The longer the two clutches overlap, the more drag, heat, friction, power loss there is. If the front drum is already applying quick, then releasing the intermediate band quick is the best solution to minimize the total shift event time right?
Adding a restriction to apply the front clutch pack slower just makes for longer/softer overlap and mushy ET robbing shifts. The reason the shift kit manufactures do it that way, is because it's cheaper to give you an orifice to install then a set of springs.
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Re: A518 full manual issues!
[Re: A727Tflite]
#2458510
02/27/18 06:22 PM
02/27/18 06:22 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,750 Rio Linda, CA
John_Kunkel
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,750
Rio Linda, CA
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So they theorize that since the band is coming off - in order to have an overlap it must be the front clutch causing the problem by coming on too soon Isn't that the actual issue? How do you theorize it? I correct the flare in someone else's trans by installing the matched package of front clutch release springs.... Doesn't the correct spring package prevent the clutch from applying "too soon"? So the clutch applying too soon is the cause of excessive overlap? Of course, you realize that some overlap is necessary to prevent flare up. Thus, the issue becomes some overlap versus excessive overlap which, in mild cases, is often construed as a firm shift. Trying to choreograph the perfect overlap by manipulating parts is, indeed, the correct way to approach the issue; problem is, how do you know when you have the perfect combo? In every case it's a "seat of the pants" judgement, what the driver perceives as a clean shift with no flare up or overlap when, in reality, excessive overlap might be present and not recognized as such because of other factors. Bottom line is, the TF will always be inferior to some other makes because of this release/apply sequence. As to the restrictor orifice, correct parts that result in a perfect sequence won't account for eventual wear of rings and clutches that will interrupt the perfect sequence, so I see the changeable restrictor as a valid method not a Band-Aid.
The INTERNET, the MISinformation superhighway
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Re: A518 full manual issues!
[Re: Charged392]
#2458581
02/27/18 09:38 PM
02/27/18 09:38 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,028 Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
Special needs idiot
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Special needs idiot
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,028
Benton, IL.
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Ok going to give the TV 100% applied a test and see what that does. If that doesn’t do anything does anyone know where about a a crack is common to form on the VB so I can have a look and see if that’s the issue.
If I find no cracks and the TV cable doesn’t fix it I am going to take the trans out and completely go thru it like a rebuild to make sure I don’t have a planetary or something stupid going out possibly. If that’s all good I guess I will just order a full manual valve body from somewhere any suggestions on where to get one. Has to be standard pattern not reverse. Again, I am very pleased with my A&A forward manual valve body. I had them soften the 1-2 shift and lower the reverse pressure. Tell them what you want and they can tell you if they can get it done for you.
Master, again and still
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Re: A518 full manual issues!
[Re: dizuster]
#2458585
02/27/18 09:48 PM
02/27/18 09:48 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,028 Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
Special needs idiot
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Special needs idiot
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,028
Benton, IL.
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I'm not sure how anyone would know which springs to tell you to change to in this imaginary overlap scenario? Every combo is different depending on the parts/clearances you use will require different springs for shift timing.
If 2/3 is overlapping, then the front clutch is coming on faster then the 2nd gear band is releasing. The longer the two clutches overlap, the more drag, heat, friction, power loss there is. If the front drum is already applying quick, then releasing the intermediate band quick is the best solution to minimize the total shift event time right?
Adding a restriction to apply the front clutch pack slower just makes for longer/softer overlap and mushy ET robbing shifts. The reason the shift kit manufactures do it that way, is because it's cheaper to give you an orifice to install then a set of springs. I agree with most of your post. But I do not feel that the restrictor softens 3rd gear engagement at all. It delays the the application of the clutch pack by slowing the filling of the void. But once the void is filled, the application is quick and firm. Even when I have had too small an opening which caused a flair, the tranny went into high firmly. Not the least bit mushy.
Master, again and still
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