Machining New Intake Angle - 440 in Car Now
#2457305
02/25/18 02:21 PM
02/25/18 02:21 PM
|
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 957 Chicago
PurpleBeeper
OP
super stock
|
OP
super stock
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 957
Chicago
|
My engine is sucking oil from the intake valley into the intake ports (440 six pack cast iron). I've struggled with this issue for years. I "think" the block was milled .040" & I "think" the heads were milled .020" (going from memory only 20+ yrs. ago). I do not "think" the intake face of the heads were milled.
The intake bolt are a PIA to line up & difficult to tighten. The bolts set at the very top of the intake manifold. I have oil in all the intake ports, the plugs oil up, I use a lot of oil & the engine smokes at high rpm. Over the years, I've re-sealed the intake at least 6 times. Valley pan only, "tried" using paper gaskets top/bottom of valley pan but I couldn't start a single bolt, RTV + valley pan, "shellac" sealer + valley pan.... I even tried cutting the intake sealing part off a stock valley pan, seal it to the heads with RTV & run a single set of paper gaskets to seal the intake/heads.
I've had this problem with BOTH my current six pack (cast iron) intake and a 4bbl cast iron intake. Years ago, I milled .010" of both intakes' head mounting surface (just a conservative guess) and sealing got better, but not really fixed. Now, with a lot of RTV and a stock valley pan, I can get the six pack intake to seal for maybe 6 months at a time...bolts still at the very top of the intake manifold holes....but then it starts sucking oil into the intake runners of the heads again. The engine is in a licensed, insured, running car.
My diagnosis is that I need to mill the intake manifold face (easier than pulling heads off) and likely "angle cut" the intake so that I take a little more off the bottom of intake runner where they meet the heads and a little less off the top of the runners so the valley pan gasket will get "pinched" just a little more at the bottom vs. the top.
So, my question is.... how do I figure out what to tell a machinist about how to mill the intake face correctly? I guess I "could" just do a conservative guess, machine, re-install, test & repeat....but is there a way to get it right the first time?
THANKS FOR YOUR HELP!
70 Roadrunner convt. street car
440+6, NOS, 4-spd, SS springs
'96 Mustang GT convt. street car
'04 4.6 SOHC, NOS, auto, lowered
"Officer, that button is for short on-ramps"
|
|
|
Re: Machining New Intake Angle - 440 in Car Now
[Re: PurpleBeeper]
#2457312
02/25/18 02:40 PM
02/25/18 02:40 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
|
Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
|
The bolts set at the very top of the intake manifold. that tells me that the intake is setting too far down in to the "V". On dry mockup I would want the bolt holes to be pretty much centered in the intake manifold holes and I would want the head and intake surfaces to be flat & I would not angle milled. thick paper gaskets on either side of the valley pan would be what I would mockup with to see if I can get the bolt holes back aligned & I'm thinking that will take care of the oil consumption. You are working with a "fixed" dimention valley pan which complicates things & I dont have the last word on this (been on SB's for decades) but hopefully this is will help. People have been useing valley pans dry with no issues (as did Ma) but everything has to be dead on for good sealing over time.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
|
|
|
Re: Machining New Intake Angle - 440 in Car Now
[Re: RapidRobert]
#2457348
02/25/18 03:42 PM
02/25/18 03:42 PM
|
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 957 Chicago
PurpleBeeper
OP
super stock
|
OP
super stock
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 957
Chicago
|
I hear you & I think I might have this backwards with the bolts being low in the holes vs. high in the holes. I really need to pull it apart again and take a look since I haven't had the intake off in a while.
I originally built this motor in about 1985, so my memory isn't too fresh on this. I'm am sure though about the half-dozen times I've re-sealed it over the years and that I tried the paper gaskets top/bottom once and couldn't bolt it up. That makes me think the bolts are low in the holes now that I think about it.
I HOPE they are sitting high since the intake would need to be "raised", not "lowered" which is a heck of a lot easier using gaskets.... but I think I just had it backwards in my first post.
And RapidRobert....do you know of a valley pan that is NOT fixed and does NOT require a head to be pulled off like the 440source ones? I do remember cutting a stock valley pan once, sealing the edges with RTV and trying to use "just" the paper gaskets years ago.
Last edited by PurpleBeeper; 02/25/18 03:45 PM.
70 Roadrunner convt. street car
440+6, NOS, 4-spd, SS springs
'96 Mustang GT convt. street car
'04 4.6 SOHC, NOS, auto, lowered
"Officer, that button is for short on-ramps"
|
|
|
Re: Machining New Intake Angle - 440 in Car Now
[Re: PurpleBeeper]
#2457352
02/25/18 04:06 PM
02/25/18 04:06 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 5,816 ohio
ruderunner
master
|
master
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 5,816
ohio
|
Have you tried just setting the intake on with no gasket or pan? Are the gaps even from bottom to top of the heads? How does the bolt holes line up then?
With unknown milling of the heads block and intake there's going to be some trial and error
Angry white pureblood male
|
|
|
Re: Machining New Intake Angle - 440 in Car Now
[Re: ruderunner]
#2457382
02/25/18 05:20 PM
02/25/18 05:20 PM
|
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 957 Chicago
PurpleBeeper
OP
super stock
|
OP
super stock
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 957
Chicago
|
Hey Rude, I think you're right. I really need to be SURE where it sits and not just go from memory. What I'm hearing on here and FBBO is I might just have to check, mill, re-assemble, re-check & repeat.
70 Roadrunner convt. street car
440+6, NOS, 4-spd, SS springs
'96 Mustang GT convt. street car
'04 4.6 SOHC, NOS, auto, lowered
"Officer, that button is for short on-ramps"
|
|
|
Re: Machining New Intake Angle - 440 in Car Now
[Re: AndyF]
#2457423
02/25/18 06:41 PM
02/25/18 06:41 PM
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 96,661 On The Boat, On The Lake, Wa. ...
amxautox
Still Retired. Still Posting on Moparts. A Lot.
|
Still Retired. Still Posting on Moparts. A Lot.
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 96,661
On The Boat, On The Lake, Wa. ...
|
Yup, the walls at both ends of the block. The intake will sit on those ends, and the intake to block surfaces will have too much of a gap, and the bolt holes will be way off.
Tom
"Everyone should believe in something; I believe I'll go fishing."
-Henry David Thoreau
Men and fish are alike. They both get into trouble when they open their mouths
author unknown
|
|
|
Re: Machining New Intake Angle - 440 in Car Now
[Re: PurpleBeeper]
#2457465
02/25/18 07:53 PM
02/25/18 07:53 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 5,816 ohio
ruderunner
master
|
master
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 5,816
ohio
|
Fortunately the ends of the manifold can be ground at home to clear the valley walls if needed.
This isn't a small block
Angry white pureblood male
|
|
|
Re: Machining New Intake Angle - 440 in Car Now
[Re: ruderunner]
#2457472
02/25/18 08:03 PM
02/25/18 08:03 PM
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 96,661 On The Boat, On The Lake, Wa. ...
amxautox
Still Retired. Still Posting on Moparts. A Lot.
|
Still Retired. Still Posting on Moparts. A Lot.
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 96,661
On The Boat, On The Lake, Wa. ...
|
Yup, little notches in the ends of the manifold flanges. Correct?
edit: A small block would need the walls cut down side to side of the block if the block deck was surfaced. Or the whole length of the front and rear ends of the manifold cut.
edit 2:
I keep thinking 'end of manifold' instead of 'end of flanges'. Oh well, trying to think of this situation while watching the hockey game isn't all that easy sometimes. lol
Last edited by amxautox; 02/25/18 08:13 PM.
Tom
"Everyone should believe in something; I believe I'll go fishing."
-Henry David Thoreau
Men and fish are alike. They both get into trouble when they open their mouths
author unknown
|
|
|
Re: Machining New Intake Angle - 440 in Car Now
[Re: AndyF]
#2457480
02/25/18 08:15 PM
02/25/18 08:15 PM
|
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 957 Chicago
PurpleBeeper
OP
super stock
|
OP
super stock
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 957
Chicago
|
Well, I can see that the front/rear valley walls (where the metal bars & 3 bolts go front/back) have not been milled. I can see how that would distort the valley pan a little bit, but I always put a bead of silicone under the front/back of the valley pan & bolt that up last after the intake is bolted on & I haven't had any leaks in those areas...not good, but seems to be working. This is a 440 & the intake doesn't sit right down on the block, so it could we worse I guess.
WAIT A MINUTE....NOW I get it....the very corners of the big block intake can hit the valley rails....the notches make sense. I never thought of that.
OK, if I use Pittsburgh's (Hughes Engines) method to check the angle & "squareness" of the intake vs. heads, those washers are going to prevent me from seeing any valley rail vs. corners of the intake interference. It "seems" like I should check that first??? How do I go about checking that?
Last edited by PurpleBeeper; 02/25/18 08:43 PM.
70 Roadrunner convt. street car
440+6, NOS, 4-spd, SS springs
'96 Mustang GT convt. street car
'04 4.6 SOHC, NOS, auto, lowered
"Officer, that button is for short on-ramps"
|
|
|
Re: Machining New Intake Angle - 440 in Car Now
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#2457495
02/25/18 08:40 PM
02/25/18 08:40 PM
|
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 957 Chicago
PurpleBeeper
OP
super stock
|
OP
super stock
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 957
Chicago
|
Pittsburgh...you rock. It hurt my head a little bit to understand it, but that looks like a great method to solve my problem. I think the only issue I might have is making SURE my 4 washers are EXACTLY the same thickness. THANK YOU
70 Roadrunner convt. street car
440+6, NOS, 4-spd, SS springs
'96 Mustang GT convt. street car
'04 4.6 SOHC, NOS, auto, lowered
"Officer, that button is for short on-ramps"
|
|
|
Re: Machining New Intake Angle - 440 in Car Now
[Re: PurpleBeeper]
#2457507
02/25/18 08:56 PM
02/25/18 08:56 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,174 PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
|
"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,174
PA.
|
Pittsburgh...you rock. It hurt my head a little bit to understand it, but that looks like a great method to solve my problem. I think the only issue I might have is making SURE my 4 washers are EXACTLY the same thickness. THANK YOU No problem and thank-you. I had this same issue with an Indy intake I modified to use on my Edelbrock heads. After doing some research I will be giving this method a try. I'm pretty sure Hughs sells the wax string.
1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
|
|
|
Re: Machining New Intake Angle - 440 in Car Now
[Re: earlymopar]
#2457665
02/26/18 12:59 AM
02/26/18 12:59 AM
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,174 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
|
I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,174
Bend,OR USA
|
I lay the intake on the heads with no valley pan or gasket and take a feeler gauge and measure how much gap there is in each corner, top and bottom, front and back sides and write it down on the manifold with felt tip marker so I don't forget or get confused later, I also look at the manifold bolt holes and how they align with the bolt holes in the heads and go from there. Once that is done take the manifold to a good machine shop and have them cut the intake to remove any angle and get clearances the same on the entire intake the same You may need to have them remove some additional material later once it is straight on the heads to get the bolt holes align properly also I like to see zero clearances on the bottom(all four corners) with no valley pan or gaskets and maybe up to and no more than .003 clearance at the top all the way across so the intake pinches the bottom up tight against the valley pan and or gaskets IHTHs
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
|
|
|
Re: Machining New Intake Angle - 440 in Car Now
[Re: PurpleBeeper]
#2457907
02/26/18 03:41 PM
02/26/18 03:41 PM
|
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 957 Chicago
PurpleBeeper
OP
super stock
|
OP
super stock
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 957
Chicago
|
So what do you all feel about enlarging/elongating the bolt holes in the intake? This is recommended in the Hughes link. It says to do it 1st thing, then go back & re-do it once the intake is fitted (if necessary)
70 Roadrunner convt. street car
440+6, NOS, 4-spd, SS springs
'96 Mustang GT convt. street car
'04 4.6 SOHC, NOS, auto, lowered
"Officer, that button is for short on-ramps"
|
|
|
Re: Machining New Intake Angle - 440 in Car Now
[Re: PurpleBeeper]
#2457921
02/26/18 04:12 PM
02/26/18 04:12 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,174 PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
|
"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,174
PA.
|
As a racer and not a show guy numbers type of guy I’ve done it often. I oval them as needed up or down to make it easier for me
1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
|
|
|
Re: Machining New Intake Angle - 440 in Car Now
[Re: PurpleBeeper]
#2458136
02/26/18 10:53 PM
02/26/18 10:53 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 5,816 ohio
ruderunner
master
|
master
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 5,816
ohio
|
Enlarging the holes makes it easier to get the bolts in but doesn't get the sealing surfaces aligned.
Angry white pureblood male
|
|
|
|
|