I asked in another post about true cfm flow on large 4150 carbs and never got a really straight answer. Maybe if I explain my situation better, I can get the info that will help me make a decision on carburetion choices. I have a 528 Hemi, built for me by Dave Dudek that produced 712 hp on the dyno at Modern cylinder heads. We had some issues with the 800 cfm AFB's that were on the highly modified factory 2x4 intake. We switched to Daves 900+ cfm F.A.S.T carbs, and the HP jumped from 650 to 712. I sent my new 800's to Dale Cubic and he went thru them and said he could not really find anything wrong with them and he ran them singly on his test engine and called them good. I got them back and with a lot of testing with my Fast dual o2 sensor A/F finally got the jetting and metering rod combo right, it runs well, idles well, has acceptable cruise (13.8). I keep thinking of trying the Indy 4150 1x4 intake and was wondering how running a approx 1000+ cfm 4150 carb will work, performance wise, to running 1600cfm that I have or the 1800 cfm that we used on the dyno? I really am not interested in a Dominator as I don't really think they have improved them to where you would say that they are a GREAT street carb, but I try to be open minded. My car is 98% street and highway driven, so that is where I am coming from and looking for solid advice as I don't want to give up any horsepower for the simplicity of a single carb. Thanks, Lee.

Some of the benefits of a dual carb application is that there is one venturi feeding each intake port and each port runner is usually a lot straighter shot to the head than any given X style single four manifold. Depending on venturi bore and booster design & size, you might be able to squeeze some more flow out of a set of 4150's. The question is can your engine take advantage of it.

If you call 15+ mpg and winning Drag Week with a Dommy "not improved" I'm not sure what is but the RIGHT t-rams make great power and have nice distribution..........

For an engine like that I'd use two throttle bodies. Then you would have 2000 cfm of airflow if you need it, and you would have really nice street manners and good fuel economy. Look at the engine we just did for Hot Rod. It is similar to what you have.

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/dyno-tested-make-700-hp-trick-flows-new-fe-heads/

hi

why not try a holley 3 bbl .

950 or 1030 cfm .

mine is very street friendly !

If you have a running combo that you are happy with and making more than 650hp, in a 98% street driven vehicle, I'd just stay right there...

Thumper,I know you build a hell of a good carb, and I honestly just don't know that much about Dominators, BUT, My street car gets driven on Power Tours(2) Road trips to Woodward in Detroit (5) The last Woodward trip with the Hemi and a Mopar cross-ram with two 770 Holleys that still squeezed out 8 mpg at a 65 mph cruise cross-country. This is what I do with my car with nothing but a change of rear tires. Are you telling me a Dominator is a very good choice for that and if you are, could you please help me understand which type would work best? 2 circuit, 3 circuit, old/new.... Cause I would not know where to start.

Andy, when you first posted the results on the FE build, I posted that I would be looking forward to seeing info on setting up and tuning a dual throttle body FI, as yours is the first story I have seen on Duals.... lots of stories on singles out there, but my experience with setting up dual 4 barrels properly was a big learning experience over single quad and 6 packs that I am familiar with. I know you have a lot on your plate, but if you ever write an article on just what all is involved in tuning that set-up for max performance on the street, I will buy that book/magazine in a minute and I am sure many others would too!

Dave, your reply really puzzles me? I worked long and hard to get my dual quad setup right, it performs really well. There is always room for improvement, there is always something to be learned. If we all had the "Good Enough" attitude, we would all be driving our old Mopars around in mid 14 second trim. No Demons, Hellcats, Z06 vettes, who would have thought, 10 years ago, that we would see 9 and 10 second factory cars on the showroom floor? I guarantee you that our hobby was instrumental in driving this trend. The day I stop experimenting on my old Mopars will be the day they put me in the ground, I've been at it for over 45 years and I'm not done yet!

I have been running/bracket racing RB six pack cars for years. I can't tell you how many times at local Mopar events, a Hemi car would venture out on the track and make a pass blowing black over rich exhaust on the way to a underwhelming 15 second pass, it was embarrassing to see. I always said that if I ever got the money to build a Hemi, if it would not run at least mid 10's in street trim, I would sell it. I have not sold it. With Demons running 9's though, I would like to hold up for our side a bit better!
Lee.

The tuning is the easy part. Most people have trouble affording a dual quad EFI setup and/or installing it. The system just plugs together on a dyno but in a car it requires that a bunch of wires be run and the fuel system has be installed and then you need a O2 sensor in the head pipe and stuff like that.

Once it is installed the tuning is very logical. The easiest thing to do is to buy the complete system from Rich at Fast Man EFI and he'll include a base tune in with the box. His base tune should be close enough that the learn function would handle the final touches.

If you have worked thru a carb tune before then the EFI tune will be familiar, but easier. With a carb you have to guess how a change will get you close to the AFR you want. With EFI you select the AFR and the computer makes it happen.

Call me sometime cos it's easier than typing and more personal..........760-900-3895..........

w/r/t highly modified factory 2x4 intake: which one? What mods?

Don't rule out the Ray Barton single 4s. On my 540 inch hemi with Stage V heads, 13.5 compression I had a Stage V 2x4 intake with properly tuned 770 Holleys.
The Barton dominator intake with a 1200 CFM Pro Systems carb was worth 49RWHP!

Mercman, thats what I am looking for, real world experience with a similar combo. If you don't mind, tell me about your build.

Polyspheric, it uses a factory street hemi 2x4 intake that has basically been turned into a single plane. It flows close to the stage 5, this work was done by Dave and Modern Cylinder Heads.

I'll just assume, by the general lack of response, that one of two things is true:
1. I'm wrong because [insert famous name here] said so, or
2. everyone already knew that

Less work for me.

A friend put a Dominator on his Buick GSX clone. It idled well and made great power for a pump gas engine. He had Scotty McLendon do the carb.

http://www.amfibi.com/us/c/2915160-c781f367

99.9% of the time one won't notice 50hp in a 98% street driven vehicle. I doubt I would notice it in my 2,800# drag car. Might be worth a little on the time slip but assometer?

I have a new 572 C.I. pump gas street Hemi with a set of Stage V heads and intake with dual 1150 dry EFI throttle bodies that will have the Holley Dominator EFI system on it.
Rich at Fastman EFI will tune it for me soon, I'm waiting for the Stage V cast aluminum valve covers to get engraved and polish so I can finish the final assembly, plumbing and wiring on it before trying to dyno it.
I'll post the results on here when it is done This is for street driver E body 1970 Challenger show type car, not a fast street and strip car, dang it
This will be the first N/A EFI Hemi motor I've built and had tuned for straight pump gas, I'm hoping for 800 + HP at or below 7500 RPM

Lee 446, This motor at the time had stock Stage V heads that flowed 378 at 700. Cam is a bullet solid roller 730 lift duration is in the high 270 range (don't have specs handy).
3550 lbs 69 GTX that had run 9.71. Switching to Barton intake and 1200 CFM carb picked up 49RWHP and car went 9.49 @138.53. Im guessing that that is about 60-65 crankshaft horsepower gain.
Next gain was having Barton port heads. I flowed them before and after the port work on the same bench. Heads went 441 at 700.
Car went 9.21 @144
Easy to tune this set up. I will have to work on a off idle burble at around 1800 or so RPM, but idle and wot were almost spot on.

When I built the 540 for my Cuda, I knew based on my wedge experience that it would want a Dominator sized carb. I didn't want the additional complexity of duals and didn't want to spend the extra coin on an EFI system that would be obsolete (and maybe unsupported) in a few years (months?).

So the big question was which intake. I talked to quite a few people whom I felt knew what they were talking about. The big Barton was many guy's first choice for a single application.

At the Indy Cylinder Head show a couple of years ago, I stopped and talked to Ken about his recommendation. With my build info and a table full of different intakes, he recommended the Dominator flanged, dual plane.

I was skeptical. Enough so that I bought both a single and a dual plane intake and ran them back to back on the dyno.

The dual made over 30 lb more torque and only gave up 11 hp @ 6,800.

For my street car, that rocks. With that intake and ThumperDart's tune in the carb, the thing idles great and the throttle response is very crisp.

Dave Hall, you have contributed absolutely nothing to this post, in the spirit of your contributions, my advice to you is sell your race car and buy a Prius. That, and run a survey on Moparts about who can't feel 50 hp and who is willing to give it up cause Dave says you don't need it.
Polyspheric, I read the post before you deleted it!!??!! You brought up many good points, and one reason I have been thinking about going to a single 4 or trying out the new Edelbrock 2x4 is that, even with my limited knowledge of intake modifications, I know that distribution issues, puddling, etc, are almost assuredly occurring, it makes power at the top, but is not the best choice on a street car and yes, originally I had the manifold modded to keep everything appearing stock, just like you can't tell a 426 from a 528 on the outside. You can't take the old street racer out of me and stealth was the name of the game back in the day.

Merc, thanks for all the great info! I would be thrilled to have a 9 second street car, you are my hero! Very good facts, you have a bit bigger Roller than I do, heads flow almost identical, now ya got me thinking! Trouble is, my car with me in it is 4200 lb. race weight and I'm not taking the A/C or the PS out(69 Satellite)and my 225 lb could use a 20 lb. trimming!

Cab, As usual, I will be waiting eagerly to hear how your build comes out, you always make good and interesting contributions to help everybody out.

DaveRS23, I appreciate your input and real world experience, it is very helpful! I have looked at the indy and the Barton, not really a whole lot of choices for modern single 4 intakes for gen 2 Hemi's. You spent the money to find out what was best for you and you share this info to help everyone else out and I really appreciate it, gives me direction! Lee.

Dual throttle bodies on a Stage V intake would be the perfect combo for power plus drivability. But the Stage V intake has a different center to center spacing so you need to invest in a new air cleaner and all of the related stuff. It gets expensive and it takes time to round up all the bits and pieces.

On the 482 FE we used the Sportsman ECU which saved some money. I liked it but it didn't have a place to hook up oil pressure which kind of soured the deal for me. We could monitor a ton of parameters on the display but there was no way to see oil pressure. So in the car the guy will need an old style oil pressure gauge next to the LCD display that has all of the other info.

The nice thing with a setup like this is the ECU will keep a log for you so you can go look at how things are running. With a big investment in an engine like that it is nice to be able to keep tabs on it.

My $.02, I tried an Indy single plane and a 1140 cfm dominator vs a old Weiand 2x4 tunnel ram back to back on the Dyno. The motor was my 605 street Hemi. I do have to admit the Indy intake was to small for the motor. The best pull was 787 hp with the Indy. The Weiand and 2 Thermoquads made 852.8hp and alot more torque from start to finish.
I don't remember which intake the Indy was but I gave it to Dragula and maybe he knows.
Most people don't run a tunnel ram because of hood clearance or just are to lazy to want to mess with 2 carbs. I made 18 pulls getting the Thermoquads dialed in and I feel it was Well worth the time. I for one will never go back to a single carb.

Not to hyjack the thread. Anyone have any experience between the Barton/dominator combo vs an Indy tunnel ram or a mp cross ram?

Do you still have the factory plenum on your weiand? I have one of those, there just so damn talk then the plenum seems small.

I did say my opinion was worth pennies. You, on the other hand, have a dyno tuned, happy combo and want to take power away by using a 4150 based single carb? Makes about as much sense as your Prius comment. Keep on spending those dollars for some stupid dyno number for a street car so you can make a little car show sign about how much hp your car has. I only offered two little opinions trying to save you some bucks.

Yes still have the stock plenum except I milled the top to accept Thermoquads.
As far as Dyno time, I sold a car to buy my own Dyno. There is a down side to this though, you can wear a motor out trying crazy stuff. The 605 has going on 70 pulls.

Lee after reading this I think you need to step back and look at what you want the car/engine to be.

Stock looking? Fast? Drivable?

"My car is 98% street and highway driven, so that is where I am coming from and looking for solid advice as I don't want to give up any horsepower for the simplicity of a single carb."

Sounds like a EFI conversion would make the most sense.

You are asking for advice on a racer forum so Dave Hall gave you a racers perspective, no reason to get butthurt.

I have converted more than one dual quad Hemi motor, both early Gen 1 Chrysler Firepower and the newer 426 Street hemi motors from progressive style to one to one, that really wakes both type motor up Especially at low RPM part throttle, under 2000, in gear
The Stage V EFI hemi intake is a single plane and it will have both throttle bodies opening at the same time, hence 1 to 1 ratio
I'm sure this combination will make the owner a little gun shy and nervous by the throttle response and tire spinning at WOT, not like a stock street Hemi motor with the progressive linkage

Just a short answer to the 4150 single 4 . I used a Race Demon RS 1050
Yes it will support 700 HP.
572" 10.5 - 1 stage V heads by MCH
Comp solid roller .660" .639" 264* 270* @.050 112 lsa
Pump gas.
2950 # 5.98 @ 115.73
I have not driven it a lot on the street , but when I did it was flawless.
That said, I decided to go bigger.

Mark

"Dual throttle bodies on a Stage V intake would be the perfect combo for power plus drivability" - Andy said that to me about 7 years ago and I listened. Check out the pump gas dyno run from MM: https://youtu.be/95gZTspdzsg It gets interesting at 0:20.

888 HP at 6400 ... and who knows what the torque peak was since the recorded peak was 828 when they started measuring at 5000 RPM. Maybe it made more at lower RPM? I took delivery back in June 2017. I started collecting parts 10 years ago for this bucket list project.

Some of the details:
* World aluminum block
* Stage V Heads with CNC port by MCH 428 CFM at .700"
* Callies Crank
* Oliver I-Beam Rods
* Ross Pistons (10.8-1 CR)
* Bullet Roller Cam (.637 lift, 273* at .050, 114 separation)
* Comp Elite Lifters
* Barton T&D Rockers
* Stage V 2x4 intake manifold
* FAST EZ-EFI 1.0 dual throttle bodies and ECU
* AR Engineering Stage V dual quad throttle linkage kit
* 28* of timing, 50 Lbs fuel pressure
* FAST XFI 2.0 and XIM coming soon and some beadlocks

I'm buying parts for the new fuel system now and I'll need some headers. My 18-spline A-833 will also need an upgrade. It's a Back-half 'Cuda, lots of fiberglass, Dana with Strange Axles and big ET Streets. Coming to the streets of North Pittsburgh as soon as I can get the rest of the $part$ and fabrication taken care of.

Special thanks to Mike, Eric and Scott from MM,Jeff (RIP) at MCH, AndyF and RichN for lots of advice on getting to this point.

888 hp and 828 ft-lbs is crazy. It looks like you ran the AEM puck as a crank and cam sensor? I built a few of those but I never ran one myself. If you were using that on the dyno pull then I'd say it works okay.

Crazy power on that combo. But I bet it cost a bunch, not sure what Lees desired budget is, but I bet that is upwards of $5000 bucs or more. Still Nice and great to see a set up combo like that.

I have a Mopar Crossram on now but low speed drive ability is poor. I'm a street driver as well, love power tour. Was looking at the edelebrock 2x4 intake vs the Indy single. I found that Pro System does a Fantastic job on carbs. Not sure if edelebrock is spaced for Holleys? Efi is the best drivability. Anyone try FI tech on a dual 4 intake?

Andy and Cab
it sounds like you have some personal experience with the stage v 2x4 intake, any opinion using it in a mostly street FI application compared to a Barton single?
Does the Stage V require any additional porting?
I will also be using on a 800hp 528 street motor.

In the old days you needed to run a dual plane intake with dual carbs to have it be drivable. But with EFI you can run a big single plane intake and the computer control will make it work. Dual throttle bodies provide max airflow and the Hemi is blessed by having the single plane Stage V intake available.

If you are shooting for an 800 hp street engine then I'd say that the Stage V intake is your best shot. Maybe it can be done with a different intake but if it was me I'd use the Stage V and dual throttle bodies. Port injection is probably better than TBI but I wouldn't be afraid to use TBI on the Stage V.

If you are serious about building an engine like that you should talk to Rich at FAST Man EFI. He has done several of those engines and he can walk you thru the choices. I also think that Tim at FHO is a good person to talk to. I know he uses the Stage V intake on a lot of his engines.

I haven't tried throttle bodies on a crossram but I bet it would work better than a pair of carbs. The carbs get messed up by reversion while the fuel injection would not have the same issue. If I had a cross ram car I'd try a pair of throttle bodies first to see how well it worked. If I couldn't get it to work then I'd switch over to a Stage V intake since I know that combination will work.

If you have the later two piece Mopar Hemi Xram I feel your pain, I don't know of any one who bolted on one of those stock that liked it, especially on a street and strip car
The original OEM Mopar drag race Xram where great on the Hemi drag race motors, I'm not sure how they worked on the street though

Here's why the Stage V will work okay for you. This one is untouched but with Tim's CNC'd Stage V heads. Knowing what I do now I wouldn't have wasted the time with those AVS'.

FWIW...the only thing that will make more power on a big cube hemi than the Barton single 4500 manifold or the big Indy 426-4 manifold is the big Indy tunnelram or a custom sheet metal tunnelram. Keep in mind that there are 3 different versions of single carb, single plane, Indy hemi manifolds.

A good dominator is plenty streetable. I have a Pro Systems 3 circuit 1200 cfm dominator on my 572" pump gas hemi that's been 9.54 at 140 mph on motor and 8.91 at 150 mph on nitrous at 3900 lbs. I use the Barton single 4500 manifold.

I run dual Holley 1050 Dominators on a Indy Tunnel Ram on my 528". We did plenty of idle, cruise & WOT adjusting & tuning on the dyno. Totally streetable & makes nice power. Motor was built for the spray anyway for at the track. My next big upgrade someday will be EFI & 4500 size Throttle Bodies.

The crossram is heavy, 47 pounds as received. Its super thick and doesn't need to be, example.. the china wall was 13/16" at thickest point, its now 5/16. I played on my mill for a few days, pulled 7.2 pounds off. Still 40 is heavy. My airflow guru at Chrysler said to block off the interconnection, it will hurt peak power by 25 HP but will make a huge difference in low speed drive-ability. might be worth a try. That stage V manifold looks great.

I also have an old Magnesium Chrysler Cross Ram Hemi manifold that has all of the old Ray Barton tricks before Cross "Tunnel Rams" became legal. I have not tried to run it on the street yet for anything.

The Barton single 4500 manifold is 35 lbs.! It's way heavier than most think.
Compared to the Indy 426-3 at 19 lbs. and the 426-4 at 22 lbs., plus 3 lbs. for the valley plate.

I thought the drivability is pretty good on my cross ram after we got the carbs dialed. I’m just not wild about the weight or the distribution. I’m thinking an indy tunnel ram for the next go around. I already have a pair of 6109 Holley’s, should make a good street/strip set up.

Lee, is hood clearance an issue? Is full out horsepower more important that driveability? How much does the budget play into the decision?

As you answer these and a few other questions, your best choice for an intake may be clearer. Lay out your priorities and then you should get some more focused responses.

I don't have anything to add, but just thought I would pipe in with my stuff. I have Stage V heads prepped by Tim, and a Stage V with 2 650 Thunders on it. The engine did 712 @ 6000, and that was at 34 degrees. It was making about 6 more HP at 32 degrees, and around 6-8 HP/100 RPM, so theoretically it was close to 750 at 6500. It was the end of a long, long day, and 712 was good enough for me!

I know there are other intake combos that would get more HP out of my setup, but one of the things I wanted was a stockish look. If I had 2 AFB's, and an air cleaner to fit the additional spacing on the Stage V manifold, I would have done that.

As Andy said though, finding a stock like air cleaner can be a pain. After trying a few different setups, I finally found someone who fabricated one for me from a stock air cleaner base. (Actually, it occurred to me long after I got it, something that he said that I hope I misinterpreted. He usually used repop 6 pak bases to do the mod, but couldn't find one, and so used a Hemi one! I pray he didn't destroy an original air cleaner base to make mine!!). This thing is a work of art though, it is gorgeous.

At the moment, I have a 6 pack on the engine, which I did just for the novelty of it. It is a really cool setup, (I've had a few guys roll their eyes when I tell them I have a 6 pack Hemi), but it is noticeably down on power. Just what you would expect: 935 CFM vs 1300, a dual plane manifold compared to the design of the Stage V.

I'll keep it on for a while, but I do miss the power of the other setup, so will go back eventually.

Once again, it always comes down to figuring out what you want, and what is most important, which obviously changes. I gave up a good amount of power for the novelty of the 6 pack, but when that loses its appeal, I'll be back to the 2 4's. But, for example, I won't ever put 2 Holleys on. At least in my current frame of mind. That may change some day, but I do want the stock look.

Dave, hood clearance is a potential issue in the future as I may swap the Hemi out of my 69 Satellite with A-12 hood and put it in my wifes 70 Cuda with a Shake hood. I will probably always lean to drivability, that is reflected in my choice of a small solid roller cam. While I don't have an unlimited budget, I can afford to get whatever I think will be best within reason. I have thought long and hard about FI and had a long talk with Rich Nedbal a few years ago. Like you, I am just a little leary of long term product support on some of the stuff out there. With input from here and a long talk with Dwayne, we ordered the Indy/Vanke dual plane- Dominator flange. I also had a very productive talk with ThumperDart and will commission from him a 1200 dominator that he builds and feels that with his mods, will meet my needs. All told, I will have 2K output and I think it will work out great, but I can always fall back to two fours and possibly go to the new Edelbrock single plane 2x4. I have high confidence that the Dominator setup will work well and will report on the results as they occur. Thanks for all the help. Lee.

Good choice! That combo will do what you want it to do.

I have basically that same set-up under the Shaker on my Cuda and couldn't be happier with it. Another good thing about going with a single Dominator is that there are drop bases out there that can be grafted onto a repop Shaker base to get it all to work together. I did that and then had a new air cleaner lid made of fiberglass that just touches the inside of the Shaker bubble.

The carb is actually at hood level. And the orange air cleaner lid is clearly visible through the Shaker grills. COOL STUFF!

With the oil shield under the intake and with a 1/2" wooden spacer under the carb, the carb is substantially cooler than the intake.

Keep us posted on your progress.

Was going to put that in my post and forgot. Have a friend who had a wicked 71 Cuda with a 528 hemi, single dominator and shaker. It was an awesome car!

I know all about making a custom base to make things work. I am currently making a drop base for my dual Dominator carbs with the tunnel ram & and a long & taller custom shaker scoop to fit my shaker hood.

Drop base, custom air cleaner,? Do you mean something like this?