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Re: Most Powerfull 59 Degree Small Block Ever?
[Re: MegaDart]
#24127
05/10/06 10:31 AM
05/10/06 10:31 AM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,752
detroit area
moderncylinder
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,752
detroit area
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ryan and other small block gurus,, how about this guy??
james caro driver, car owned by sonny stancil
nhra super stock gt/ca
04 dodge stratus built by b and b race cars
360 59 degree block, .060 over, stock compression, which is 8.8/1 1.88/1.60 308 iron heads ported by me, edelbrock victor manifold ported by me. carter thermoquad carb. cam is around what you said on that other guys motor, but .670 or so lift.
car weighs 2750lbs with driver,, little less that your guy,, 9.47 at 139ish, 1/8 5.92 at 113.5.
this guy is almost knocking on that guys door, though 300lbs light,, doing it with waaayyy less quality of parts..
moral of the story,, if you spend good money and buy the right parts from the right people it isnt that hard to make something run like that.
jeff
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Re: Most Powerfull 59 Degree Small Block Ever?
[Re: moderncylinder]
#24128
05/10/06 11:37 AM
05/10/06 11:37 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,547
State College, PA
RyanJ
OP
moparts member
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OP
moparts member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,547
State College, PA
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Quote:
ryan and other small block gurus,, how about this guy??
james caro driver, car owned by sonny stancil
nhra super stock gt/ca
04 dodge stratus built by b and b race cars
360 59 degree block, .060 over, stock compression, which is 8.8/1 1.88/1.60 308 iron heads ported by me, edelbrock victor manifold ported by me. carter thermoquad carb. cam is around what you said on that other guys motor, but .670 or so lift.
car weighs 2750lbs with driver,, little less that your guy,, 9.47 at 139ish, 1/8 5.92 at 113.5.
this guy is almost knocking on that guys door, though 300lbs light,, doing it with waaayyy less quality of parts..
moral of the story,, if you spend good money and buy the right parts from the right people it isnt that hard to make something run like that.
jeff
Jeff, Those S/S cars are awesome, but run the #'s.... on the moroso calc 2750 @ 139 mph is 565 HP. Which is very impressive for the combo but over 100 shy of being anywhere near what I was talking about which was the most powerfull 59 degree head combo I have seen to date.
And for those throwing around big HP #'s like they are toys, we need a way to correlate one engine to another since all dynos spit out varying #'s and in many cases wildly varying. Ask Bigcube what the difference was Between Kent RItters SuperFlow and Dwaynes SuperFlow. I think anyone who builds and dyno's alot of motors soon realizes the vast differences that are out there. It's the uninformed public who buy into whatever # they are given, and that must be gospel. The best way I have found to corellate real world HP is vehicle weight and MPH. Granted you sometimes have to look at the air the car ran in to run the #'s the owner claims but usually you can get a good idea of what a motor is doing.
If anyone wants to post their Race weight and MPH I'll be happy to run the # through the moroso and tell you how it compares. Just for instance here is B3's 3350 lbs 134 MPH ~618 HP So it's no HP "king". It's nice combo that makes good power but is not exceptional, which is what we are talking about in this post.
MegaDart what was your race weight and best MPH with your old W5 motor? I'll let you know how it stacks up and don't be disapointed when it is no where near 740 HP. I think I did the #'s a while back when you had posted the weight somewhere and if I remember right it was in the 650 range. And you can argue all you want, I'm sure that motor did make 740 HP on someones dyno..... that's fantastic, but when the #'s are input against other known combo's it does'nt add up to 740 HP. Basically what I'm saying is you could have taken that motor to 5 other dyno's maybe 2 of them would show somewhere between 640-680 HP and 1 of them about the same 740, and 2 others maybe even higher. Those #'s are just #'s, the dyno is a tuning tool to try to extract the most power possible out of an engine, it's not a comparison tool. Vehicle weight and MPH is better comparison. BTW Your old Dry Sump system off the W5 motor is sitting in the shop, I'm building Chris Coco's 417" W8 motor currently. I did'nt realize that was your old 3 stage system until he sent me pics of it in the Dart.
Jerico: the '69's sitting in the main bay at the shop. It's about 1/2 painted, and is now a rolling chassis. Bodywork is taking longer than I hoped, and I wanted something to drive this summer, so I bought this '70 as a Driver. The '69's not going anywhere.
ANDYF: No I'm not saying this is the most potential power motor. I'm just saying I have yet to see or hear of one making more... I certainly think you could touch the 700 mark with a more "trick" combo. I just hav'nt seen anyone actually do it yet. Not alot of people want to spend $15K+ for a 59* head/59* block motor. They all just jump right to the 48* stuff and then big #'s are "relatively" easy.
If anyone else out there knows of a combo that they think is close, give me the MPH and weight and we'll see. I'm not saying this one is THE most powerfull out there, but from what I have seen it has got to be pretty close, certainly in top 1 percentile power wise of 59* motors.
And yes CBK I'm talking about "true" 59 degree motors, not 48* halfbreeds. I still will never see the "Fifty Nine Degree W9" as a real 59* head since it has 15 degree valve angle. In my mind a 59* head is a head that started life as 18 degree valve angle. I consider the 15 degree W2AB heads to be 48 degree heads, and so does MP.
And yes StrokedW7 and I talked to the guy with teh Green Dart at Norwalk two years ago. He said it had ran 9.40's 142 in the past, but was not hooking at Norwalk, we saw him go 9.60's @ 139. It was'nt taht he would'nt give out info, he just did'nt know anything about the motor. We asked what Stroke it had and he said I think it is 6". I said no... you probabbly mean it has 6" rod length. And he said yeah. After talking with him a little while I was able to extract taht it was a 9" deck R3, with a 3.80 Sprint car crank, 6" rod, 4.185 bore. It was a Davis motor and had Used Craftsman truck W8's on it. It had a "598" cast single 4 intake and some form of 4150 series Carb, I think it was a Demon off top of my head. It had a single stage belt drive oil pump. That's about all I remember. I believe he said the car was 3200 lbs with him. We asked about power #'s..... Maybe Steve remembers exactly what he said but it was somewhere in neighborhood of 840-860 PWR and 640 TQ.
3200 lbs @ 142 MPH = 700 HP. Which.... is about what we'd expct to see on Rider's dyno with that type of combo. So it made about what I thought it would. Around 700-720. Nothing spectacular, but about average for what it was. Some combo's seem to be over acheivers, some underacheivers and some are on average.
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Re: Most Powerfull 59 Degree Small Block Ever?
[Re: RyanJ]
#24129
05/10/06 12:35 PM
05/10/06 12:35 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,721
Portage,michigan
B3422W5
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,721
Portage,michigan
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i agree ryan..the moroso calculator seems to be exactly in line with riders dyno,and as such is a good barometer... if i plug my 134.40 pass and weight into the calculator on this site,it says 633 at the tire,add 20 percent for driveline,and you would have a large number a few years back(and some may remember it)mopar muscle had a feature article called"smallblock stomper"..they ran a 416 with "mildly ported square indy's"about 12.5 compression,and the same flat tappet cam that quickrunner went 10.69 best in his runner...they had a 1025 race demon on that motor that i bought from them,at the indy swap meet...anyhow,they showed 665 horse on the dyno,and said with a roller and port work,another 50/60 ponies were possible...we now know that couldnt have been true...figures are figures.....with only(at this time)a puny 618 ponies,that duster is as cheap to insure as a cavalier 4 door  
69 Dart GTS A4 Silver All steel, flat factory hood, 3360race weight
418 BPE factory replacement headed stroker, 565 lift solid cam
Best so far, 10.40 @127 1/4
1.41 best 60 foot
6.60 at 103.90 1/8
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Re: Most Powerfull 59 Degree Small Block Ever?
[Re: RyanJ]
#24131
05/10/06 02:07 PM
05/10/06 02:07 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,752
detroit area
moderncylinder
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,752
detroit area
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ryan, i wasnt knocking you. you didnt even build that thing from what i read, and ron sharp did the heads. it runs good,, no doubt,, is it impressive to me,, no,, not with the parts that are there. thats what it should run, if not better, if you do things right.
jeff
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Re: Most Powerfull 59 Degree Small Block Ever?
[Re: MegaDart]
#24135
05/10/06 06:06 PM
05/10/06 06:06 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
Quicktree
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
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Quote:
Well I don't give a hoot about Riders dyno or anyone else's, in fact I'm tired of hearing about it.
So tell me this, how much hp to go .99 60' at 1800lbs, more then you've ever made I'll bet...
I'm sure SOB would be interested to hear what you think of his dyno sheet.
I bet I can get close we went 1.0 60' with 878hp 
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Re: Most Powerfull 59 Degree Small Block Ever?
[Re: RyanJ]
#24137
05/10/06 06:31 PM
05/10/06 06:31 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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so are you saying that you feel 670 HP out of a 416 is about the max you can make in a 59* motor? i think we've done better than that. 670hp makes a nice combo but c'mon. if that's the limit were all in big trouble.
even some of the chevy 383's we've done make more than that. no point in rubbing salt in the wound by talking about the SBC 434's we've done, LOL.
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Re: Most Powerfull 59 Degree Small Block Ever?
[Re: MPerry]
#24140
05/10/06 06:47 PM
05/10/06 06:47 PM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,023
NY
B1duster
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,023
NY
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Yea guys, play nice. How about a SB Mopar "Build Off" ?
Last edited by B1duster; 05/10/06 06:49 PM.
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Re: Most Powerfull 59 Degree Small Block Ever?
#24141
05/10/06 07:00 PM
05/10/06 07:00 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 803
Red Bluff, CA
WilliamHall
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 803
Red Bluff, CA
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Quote:
so are you saying that you feel 670 HP out of a 416 is about the max you can make in a 59* motor? i think we've done better than that. 670hp makes a nice combo but c'mon. if that's the limit were all in big trouble.
even some of the chevy 383's we've done make more than that. no point in rubbing salt in the wound by talking about the SBC 434's we've done, LOL.
Would you care to post the numbers run including weight with these higher HP engines? That would be a fairer comparison. My guess is you have a liberal dyno, or better yet a more liberal dyno than Ryan has.
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Re: Most Powerfull 59 Degree Small Block Ever?
[Re: WilliamHall]
#24142
05/10/06 07:04 PM
05/10/06 07:04 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,418
Mcallen, TX
SB449VALIANT
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,418
Mcallen, TX
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Quote:
Quote:
so are you saying that you feel 670 HP out of a 416 is about the max you can make in a 59* motor? i think we've done better than that. 670hp makes a nice combo but c'mon. if that's the limit were all in big trouble.
even some of the chevy 383's we've done make more than that. no point in rubbing salt in the wound by talking about the SBC 434's we've done, LOL.
Would you care to post the numbers run including weight with these higher HP engines? That would be a fairer comparison. My guess is you have a liberal dyno, or better yet a more liberal dyno than Ryan has.
i love a happy dyno... 
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Re: Most Powerfull 59 Degree Small Block Ever?
[Re: WilliamHall]
#24144
05/10/06 07:41 PM
05/10/06 07:41 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Would you care to post the numbers run including weight with these higher HP engines? That would be a fairer comparison. My guess is you have a liberal dyno, or better yet a more liberal dyno than Ryan has.
you would be guessing wrong on the dyno thing. i'm not going to go digging through the files for time slips just to please someone that will try to argue or discredit no matter what i post. ask any engine builder about the combo's i mentioned. a mild 383 chevy will make over 600 HP on anybody's dyno that is properly calibrated. a properly built one will make 700+. like i said before, the 434 motors make waaaaay more than 700.
Last edited by DRAM_Perf_Only; 05/10/06 07:42 PM.
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Re: Most Powerfull 59 Degree Small Block Ever?
[Re: MegaDart]
#24146
05/10/06 09:16 PM
05/10/06 09:16 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,547
State College, PA
RyanJ
OP
moparts member
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OP
moparts member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,547
State College, PA
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Quote:
Well I don't give a hoot about Riders dyno or anyone else's, in fact I'm tired of hearing about it.
So tell me this, how much hp to go .99 60' at 1800lbs, more then you've ever made I'll bet...
I'm sure SOB would be interested to hear what you think of his dyno sheet.
What does a .99 60' time in a BB Chevy powered RED have anything to do with 59 degree small blocks? If you gave me the MPH I could give you a decent idea of power comparison. Although the one things I will say about this caculator is, the further you go out on the extremes, the more it seems "skewed" ie. extremely light cars, or anything over 1000 HP and it get's a little "off" But for the middle of the road stuff between 2000-4000 lbs and 300-1000 HP it seems to be very close.
But anyhow I was asking about your old 59* motor, not some BB chevy, they can easily make over 1000... but...that's not the discussion. Like I said before I think your old W5 was in the 650 range, which certainly does not make it a slouch, it puts it right up there as one of the most powerfull I've heard of as well when compared to others based on track performance alone.
I TRIED to take the whole "dyno thing" out of this discussion by asking for 1/4 mile MPH and vehicle weight so we can run them through one simple calculator to make honest comparisons and yet everyone still is throwing around 600 HP, 700 HP this and that and is not backing anything up with track #'s and vehicle weight, other than Jeff and one other guy. And I'm sure their are SB GM combo's doing it.... but darn I don't recall them being part of the subject line of this post either.  Do I think using a slide calculator is the "best" way to determine how two engines compare to each other power wise? Definitely not, but in my eyes it seems to be alot more accurate than trying to compare 2 engines run on two different dyno's, based purely on the fact that we have all seen the same engine go on different dyno's and put up vastly different #'s, telling me that comparing those 2 is really pointless. The "best" way would be to run two engines back to back on same day, same dyno, same operator etc. But even then there is still a little room for error and intrpretation, but... that really is'nt possible when trying to just evaluate various engines already running around the world now is it?
And again as I stated before NO I don't think 670 is the most "possible" out of a 59* SB Chrysler, I'm just stating that until someone shows me timeslips on something that putting it into the moroso calculator says it makes more..... well.... then so far this is about as much as I have ever heard of actually being made. And yes I have absolutely nothing to do with this engine until this point so I'm not posting this to brag about it etc. Lazerri picked out the cam, ICH did the CNC work, another guy did the VJ, the owner built it....
I was posting about it to stimulate conversation and thoughts. I'd LOVE to hear about someone else who has a NA 59* head 59* block motor making more, but I don't see anyone posting real world info on one. So what does this leave one to think?  If there is one out there let's hear about it.
ONE thing is for certain........ dyno #'s as you can see are ALWAYS a hot topic, and will always be a good way to get a bunch of racers and engine builders to argue amungst each other LOL. It is certainly a topic that get's alot of people "fired up", alot of guys have VERY intense feelings about their Dyno #'s and it is entertaining from a psycological standpoint to see how these discussions affect people and what they type.
I read most of the dyno posts on here and other boards, whether it be SB, BB, Hemi, GM, Ford etc. And I've had customers who I've done heads for show me their sheets etc. And some #'s are just laughably high, some middle road and some surprisingly low. I tend to look more at where the peak TQ/HP is being made, how broad is the TQ curve, how far past peak HP does the power curve pull before it drops like a rock, what's the fuel curve look like etc. Those are the important things to look at when just having a set of #'s shoved in your face more so than how big the actual #'s are. Only time I pay a ton of attention to how big the #'s are is when I am dynoing a motor and I'm watching the #"s pop up on Wyndyn for the first time on a new combo. There is always that sense of excitement to see how close or far off you were to what you were trying to achieve. Aftr the initial #'s come up from there then you go back to repition and look at all the other data and try to use it to find more power.
And again, I'm not trying to start a war here  , I'm basically looking to see if anyone knows of a NA 59* SBM combo that on the track has proven to make more power than the one I listed. Very simple... (at least I thought it was  ) How we got skewed off into HP/CID and Chevy's and this dyno and that dyno, I'll never know.
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~Mike~
