Re: 727 Why you should always CHECK !
[Re: nss guy]
#2402133
11/11/17 08:56 PM
11/11/17 08:56 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,763 Walton's Mountain, Pa
Steve1118
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Posts: 2,763
Walton's Mountain, Pa
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Agree a zillion percent. I'm not a supporter of the "We're all gonna die if we race a torqueflite" crowd, but, this is common sense. Anytime the motor and drive train lose their load in 1st gear you gotta check. The trans will seem fine puttsying around....but it's not. I remember when that happened, Jim.....This was the instruction we were given in big bold letters back in the sixties, before the fancy stuff was available. Just common sense, paying attention.
"Old age and treachery trumps youth and enthusiasm, every time!" East Central Director / Chrysler Power Magazine www.reasbeckracing.webs.com
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Re: 727 Why you should always CHECK !
[Re: nss guy]
#2402138
11/11/17 09:00 PM
11/11/17 09:00 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,490 Minnesota
Hemi_Joel
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master
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Minnesota
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Good save! What caused the R&P failure?
[img]http://i.imgur.com/boeexFms.jpg[/img]31 Plymouth Coupe, 392 Hemi, T56 magnum RS23J71 RS27J77 RP23J71 RO23J71 WM21J8A I don't regret the things I've done. I only regret the things I didn't do. "Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something. ~ Plato"
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Re: 727 Why you should always CHECK !
[Re: Hemi_Joel]
#2402145
11/11/17 09:05 PM
11/11/17 09:05 PM
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,443 central ohio
nss guy
OP
pro stock
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OP
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central ohio
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Good save! What caused the R&P failure? I am thinking how I set up the R&P, my first time and it lasted 6+ years.
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Re: 727 Why you should always CHECK !
[Re: nss guy]
#2402228
11/11/17 10:59 PM
11/11/17 10:59 PM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 13,189 aZLiViN
J_BODY
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I Live Here
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aZLiViN
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Re: 727 Why you should always CHECK !
[Re: scottb]
#2402253
11/11/17 11:41 PM
11/11/17 11:41 PM
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,443 central ohio
nss guy
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,443
central ohio
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On a 727 to help out on the explosion what is needed steel front drum rear bolt in spray and what else will help out on the explosion No explosion here =, inspected and will replace all damaged componets.
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Re: 727 Why you should always CHECK !
[Re: nss guy]
#2402370
11/12/17 03:42 AM
11/12/17 03:42 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,448 Phoenix, AZ
MoparBilly
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Phoenix, AZ
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It's a weird feeling when you tear one down and find no damage to the sprag. On one hand, you're happy nothing was broken, but on the other hand you're like, "Dang it, I just did all that work for nothing!"
"Livin' in a powder keg and givin' off sparks"
4 Street cars, 5 Race engines
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Re: 727 Why you should always CHECK !
[Re: nss guy]
#2402690
11/12/17 08:17 PM
11/12/17 08:17 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,796 Rio Linda, CA
John_Kunkel
Too Many Posts
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Rio Linda, CA
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Once again I'm gonna play the cynic; I doubt that the OP's sprag failure was really that spontaneous, probably in distress before the R&P failure.
The INTERNET, the MISinformation superhighway
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Re: 727 Why you should always CHECK !
[Re: John_Kunkel]
#2402733
11/12/17 09:44 PM
11/12/17 09:44 PM
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,443 central ohio
nss guy
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: Sep 2006
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central ohio
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Once again I'm gonna play the cynic; I doubt that the OP's sprag failure was really that spontaneous, probably in distress before the R&P failure.
Curious of why it would be compromised before the R&P failure? The reason I say that is that when I pulled trans after the R&P failure I could not turn the driveshaft or trans output shaft by hand, need big pair channel locks, before the failure the car rolled very easily in the staging lanes.
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Re: 727 Why you should always CHECK !
[Re: nss guy]
#2403101
11/13/17 04:44 PM
11/13/17 04:44 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,796 Rio Linda, CA
John_Kunkel
Too Many Posts
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Rio Linda, CA
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The rolling test of a sprag proves nothing until a catastrophic failure jams it up. I just don't see the galling in the OP's pic happening in a few seconds.
The INTERNET, the MISinformation superhighway
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Re: 727 Why you should always CHECK !
[Re: John_Kunkel]
#2403141
11/13/17 06:11 PM
11/13/17 06:11 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,296 NE Ohio
DoubleD
top fuel
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top fuel
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Posts: 2,296
NE Ohio
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Once again I'm gonna play the cynic; I doubt that the OP's sprag failure was really that spontaneous, probably in distress before the R&P failure.
Every one I have ever seen was "spontaneous" or related to a specific indecent of extreme shock to the drive train - if you break a rear-end in first gear this usually happens - the only time I ever had one saved was by the use of a air shifter - the trans shifted to second when it free-wheeled - I still had it checked out to make sure - cause your not gonna find out until the next pass......
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Re: 727 Why you should always CHECK !
[Re: nss guy]
#2403550
11/14/17 04:19 PM
11/14/17 04:19 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,919 A shed in England
Tig
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A shed in England
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This is what happened after we took some teeth off the R/P (dana 60)
'74 Challenger..9.46 @ 145.9 1/4, 6.001 @ 118 1/8 so far. 4023lb !!! # N/A, Marsh performance 655ci, Indy Maxx, T/R, Indy 600-13 X's, Street legal, pump gas, full interior, Cal-Tracs, mufflers, 3:73's and real 10.5 radials. 9.51 @ 142.4 1/4, 6.003 @ 114 1/8 with our old mule KB, 572-13, 580 wedge. RHD '68 Barracuda Fastback 323ci street/strip. Best ET 13.88 @ 99.03
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Re: 727 Why you should always CHECK !
[Re: Tig]
#2403789
11/15/17 12:20 AM
11/15/17 12:20 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 116 Eastern Shore of Maryland
nasty68
member
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member
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Eastern Shore of Maryland
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Probably a stupid question being i have never pulled a trans apart but i assume the whole trans needs to be torn down to get to the sprag?
68 dart, 383, 727 2013 Jeep JKU Sahara
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Re: 727 Why you should always CHECK !
[Re: nasty68]
#2403827
11/15/17 02:09 AM
11/15/17 02:09 AM
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,674 Wichita
GY3
master
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master
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Wichita
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Probably a stupid question being i have never pulled a trans apart but i assume the whole trans needs to be torn down to geth to the sprag? Yes, it is in the very back of the inside of the case.
'63 Dodge 330 11.19 @ 121 mph Pump gas, n/a, through the mufflers on street tires with 3.54's. 3,600 lbs. 10.01 @ 133mph with a 250 shot of nitrous an a splash of race gas. 1.36 60 ft. 3,700 lbs.
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Re: 727 Why you should always CHECK !
[Re: Roughbird72]
#2404547
11/16/17 05:24 PM
11/16/17 05:24 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,919 A shed in England
Tig
master
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A shed in England
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Ok, just for argument's sake. After how many passes/seasons should one inspect the sprag? I generally rebuild / check the trans after 5 seasons (250 - 300 passes here). It doesn't usually wear too much. After any sort of drive line failure I check the sprag.
'74 Challenger..9.46 @ 145.9 1/4, 6.001 @ 118 1/8 so far. 4023lb !!! # N/A, Marsh performance 655ci, Indy Maxx, T/R, Indy 600-13 X's, Street legal, pump gas, full interior, Cal-Tracs, mufflers, 3:73's and real 10.5 radials. 9.51 @ 142.4 1/4, 6.003 @ 114 1/8 with our old mule KB, 572-13, 580 wedge. RHD '68 Barracuda Fastback 323ci street/strip. Best ET 13.88 @ 99.03
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Re: 727 Why you should always CHECK !
[Re: Tig]
#2404552
11/16/17 05:45 PM
11/16/17 05:45 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,989 Anoka County, MN
Leigh
master
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Anoka County, MN
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Back when 727 and 904's were the primary product line trans, I never once saw a tech disassemble an overrunning clutch. They would spin it and move on. That's a flat rate tech for you. I ALWAYS mark every roller for location, disassemble, diagnose condition and reassemble with new springs in their original location on the cam. I always keep the inner race orientation the same as well. Some will say anecdotal, but, all rollers are not created equal. I mic them for both diameter, length and check for identical champfer. The matched sets on the high side of spec diameter, are prized now, that the oem roller and spring packages are history. Leave no stone unturned.
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Re: 727 Why you should always CHECK !
[Re: DoubleD]
#2404574
11/16/17 07:06 PM
11/16/17 07:06 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,796 Rio Linda, CA
John_Kunkel
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
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Rio Linda, CA
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Once again I'm gonna play the cynic; I doubt that the OP's sprag failure was really that spontaneous, probably in distress before the R&P failure.
Every one I have ever seen was "spontaneous" or related to a specific indecent of extreme shock to the drive train Of course, the failure was spontaneous but if you hadn't physically inspected the sprag one run before the failure how do you know its condition before the failure? I've pulled apart plenty of 727's that were working just fine but had rollers with visible flat spots
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Re: 727 Why you should always CHECK !
[Re: nss guy]
#2404620
11/16/17 09:13 PM
11/16/17 09:13 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,319 Puyallup, WA
StealthWedge67
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Puyallup, WA
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I busted my 8-3/4 on a launch once a few years back. I pulled the trans down and found the sprag to be a-ok, so back together it went.. I took the opportunity to reassemble with new clutches and steels, so the R&R time wasn't all for not. Considered myself lucky.
This past year I did a maintenance rebuild and added a bolt-in sprag just as an extra safety measure.
LemonWedge - Street heavy / Strip ready - 11.07 @ 120
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Re: 727 Why you should always CHECK !
[Re: John_Kunkel]
#2404957
11/17/17 01:54 PM
11/17/17 01:54 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,265 fredericksburg,va
cudaman1969
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fredericksburg,va
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Once again I'm gonna play the cynic; I doubt that the OP's sprag failure was really that spontaneous, probably in distress before the R&P failure.
Every one I have ever seen was "spontaneous" or related to a specific indecent of extreme shock to the drive train Of course, the failure was spontaneous but if you hadn't physically inspected the sprag one run before the failure how do you know its condition before the failure? I've pulled apart plenty of 727's that were working just fine but had rollers with visible flat spots As far as checking the sprag on rebuild, if the pins are straight, move on. Not believing failure could occur on a new sprag when a driveline part brakes, when it free-wheels and slams back under load, no way is it strong enough to not damage or brake it. The sprag was never designed for that kind of abuse. As far as explosions, I'd say the driver is not paying attention to what the "car" is telling him. A simple test to do after your burnout, put in low, push throttle to reset the sprag rolling foward, if it feels not right, abort the run, you broke it. Never roll-coast to the line after the burnout. By the way, I've done first-second-drive burn outs forever and never broke a drum, but have broken two sprags hitting wet spots after the burn out box on dry hope and feeling the results.
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Re: 727 Why you should always CHECK !
[Re: cudaman1969]
#2405117
11/17/17 06:45 PM
11/17/17 06:45 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,796 Rio Linda, CA
John_Kunkel
Too Many Posts
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Rio Linda, CA
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As far as checking the sprag on rebuild, if the pins are straight, move on. Not believing failure could occur on a new sprag when a driveline part brakes, when it free-wheels and slams back under load, no way is it strong enough to not damage or brake it.
Totally disagree; rollers with flat spots can co-exist with straight pins. Sudden shocks occur with Clutchflites/Neutral and failures aren't epidemic with such abuse.
The INTERNET, the MISinformation superhighway
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Re: 727 Why you should always CHECK !
[Re: John_Kunkel]
#2405666
11/18/17 09:51 PM
11/18/17 09:51 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,265 fredericksburg,va
cudaman1969
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fredericksburg,va
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As far as checking the sprag on rebuild, if the pins are straight, move on. Not believing failure could occur on a new sprag when a driveline part brakes, when it free-wheels and slams back under load, no way is it strong enough to not damage or brake it.
Totally disagree; rollers with flat spots can co-exist with straight pins. Sudden shocks occur with Clutchflites/Neutral and failures aren't epidemic with such abuse. Clutchflites- neutral starts? I can take a big hammer and beat the crap out of anything too. Must have taken 100s apart in the last 50 years and never saw flat spots on rollers, unless sprag was broken, thoreticaly impossible to slide under load (they break first or the springs have lost tension from heat) seen plenty of broken, chewed up ones. Of course I should add, inspect ever part of the sprag unit to be safe before putting back in service. To each his own.
Last edited by cudaman1969; 11/19/17 01:38 PM.
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Re: 727 Why you should always CHECK !
[Re: cudaman1969]
#2406026
11/19/17 07:15 PM
11/19/17 07:15 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,796 Rio Linda, CA
John_Kunkel
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Rio Linda, CA
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never saw flat spots on rollers, unless sprag was broken, thoreticaly impossible to slide under load (they break first or the springs have lost tension from heat Again we disagree; rollers sliding is the initial failure mode IMO, the FSM even advises checking the rollers for flat spots. You have a roller and inner race that have highly polished surfaces...in reality it's a miracle of physics that they even hold.
The INTERNET, the MISinformation superhighway
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Re: 727 Why you should always CHECK !
[Re: John_Kunkel]
#2406217
11/20/17 03:59 AM
11/20/17 03:59 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,265 fredericksburg,va
cudaman1969
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master
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fredericksburg,va
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never saw flat spots on rollers, unless sprag was broken, thoreticaly impossible to slide under load (they break first or the springs have lost tension from heat Again we disagree; rollers sliding is the initial failure mode IMO, the FSM even advises checking the rollers for flat spots. You have a roller and inner race that have highly polished surfaces...in reality it's a miracle of physics that they even hold. Yes, again we disagree, the perfect wedge till one side gives or is overcome by load.
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Re: 727 Why you should always CHECK !
[Re: cudaman1969]
#2406295
11/20/17 12:42 PM
11/20/17 12:42 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,405 north of coder
moparx
"Butt Crack Bob"
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"Butt Crack Bob"
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,405
north of coder
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are the above statements saying neutral drops don't affect the sprag ? what fails internally when neutral drops are stupidly done ? or am i not understanding something in these statements ? Do a few, then try looking thru the broken parts to find out what broke first. It was a starting line practice back in the sixtys but the tires where tiny. NHRA banned it after too many clean ups. Then the billion dollar converter industry came about. a few ? man, i remember this technique like it was yesterday ! then, there was the practice of us doing "J hooks", where one would go real fast in reverse, then drop into low. object was to see who could male the longest "J". funny we all have any feet left ! the local gas station made a fortune selling us used goodyear and firestone red line [and occasionally blue line/blue streak goodyears] G-70 tires for $5.00 ea [mounted and balanced - dating myself ? ]. at least one pair of tires per weekend, not uncommon though, to go through one set per night ! we sure were "young & dumb" then. luck on our side helped a bunch too......
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Re: 727 Why you should always CHECK !
[Re: dogdays]
#2406499
11/20/17 08:07 PM
11/20/17 08:07 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,796 Rio Linda, CA
John_Kunkel
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
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Rio Linda, CA
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And yet the Super Sprag fails too. Here's a pic of an A&A sprag that failed recently, notice all the pins are straight.
And the kicker, the trans was working "just fine" according to the owner but was pulled because of no Reverse; on disassembly the pan was found to be full of hard debris, further disassembly found the grenaded sprag which took out the roller rear support, rear band drum and the case. If it hadn't been for a broken factory rear servo piston the owner would have attempted another run.
Griner transbrake VB with no LBA and a factory front drum.
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Re: 727 Why you should always CHECK !
[Re: moparx]
#2406524
11/20/17 09:49 PM
11/20/17 09:49 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,265 fredericksburg,va
cudaman1969
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,265
fredericksburg,va
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O are the above statements saying neutral drops don't affect the sprag ? what fails internally when neutral drops are stupidly done ? or am i not understanding something in these statements ? Do a few, then try looking thru the broken parts to find out what broke first. It was a starting line practice back in the sixtys but the tires where tiny. NHRA banned it after too many clean ups. Then the billion dollar converter industry came about. a few ? man, i remember this technique like it was yesterday ! then, there was the practice of us doing "J hooks", where one would go real fast in reverse, then drop into low. object was to see who could male the longest "J". funny we all have any feet left ! the local gas station made a fortune selling us used goodyear and firestone red line [and occasionally blue line/blue streak goodyears] G-70 tires for $5.00 ea [mounted and balanced - dating myself ? ]. at least one pair of tires per weekend, not uncommon though, to go through one set per night ! we sure were "young & dumb" then. luck on our side helped a bunch too...... Can you imagine those tires on today's hot cars? We did a trick with the neutral safety switch, ground the switch, floor it, then start the engine. Probably didn't really do much but felt like a high stall converter or at least what we thought it would feel like. It is a wonder we lived to tell the tales. Racing and hanging out around the Hot Shops all Friday and Saturday nite, those where the days, er nights! $10-15 could last all weekend.
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Re: 727 Why you should always CHECK !
[Re: nss guy]
#2406663
11/21/17 04:44 AM
11/21/17 04:44 AM
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 417 reynoldsburg,ohio
poppaj
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 417
reynoldsburg,ohio
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We did it as well last race of the year. Snapped driveshaft as well.😬
AA/NSS 65'Coronet "Whompin Wedge" Pop & Son Performance 557" B-1 power John Holt Chassis
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