Re: Starter issues (hot cranking)
[Re: JACK1440]
#2341913
07/23/17 12:47 PM
07/23/17 12:47 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,243 Charlotte, North Carolina
sgcuda
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,243
Charlotte, North Carolina
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How close are the header tubes to the starter? Maybe a heat shield is in order. Poor or lack of ground capacity is very high. What is the battery CCA? What size cable are you using to the starter from the battery?
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Re: Starter issues (hot cranking)
[Re: JACK1440]
#2341919
07/23/17 12:58 PM
07/23/17 12:58 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,540 Milwaukee WI
TRENDZ
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,540
Milwaukee WI
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Try disconnecting the ignition pickup when this is happening. You may just need a bit less timing with temp.
"use it 'till it breaks, replace as needed"
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Re: Starter issues (hot cranking)
[Re: JACK1440]
#2341972
07/23/17 02:41 PM
07/23/17 02:41 PM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 632 MD-USA
Dodgeguy101
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 632
MD-USA
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We went after the ground first and did find some wiring that needed to freshened up so that is done.
I have a heavy cable (welding cable) going to the started.
It's going to get a heat shield today. I have the mazzaloni headers
Haven't tried the pickup idea. I'll try that today also I know you have a big enough wire for the positive, but how big is the ground wire? That was my problem, from what Ive read, the negative needs to be as big. After I went with a bigger ground wire, mine starts right up, hot or cold.
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Re: Starter issues (hot cranking)
[Re: JACK1440]
#2342017
07/23/17 04:26 PM
07/23/17 04:26 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,514 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,514
So. Burlington, Vt.
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I know a few people who had trunk mounted batteries that were just grounded to the chassis in the rear, that found a definite improvement with hot cranking by running a full sized cable from the battery right to the block.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Starter issues (hot cranking)
[Re: JACK1440]
#2342033
07/23/17 04:59 PM
07/23/17 04:59 PM
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 715 Central TEXAS!!!!
sr4440
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 715
Central TEXAS!!!!
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instead of guessing, why don't you do a voltage drop test, that way you can find the problem quickly.
FYI we use a stock mini starter to turn over a 500CI 14-1 8-71 blower engine, works fine.
Joe
Without Data, you’re just another guy with an opinion.
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Re: Starter issues (hot cranking)
[Re: JACK1440]
#2342153
07/23/17 09:52 PM
07/23/17 09:52 PM
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 715 Central TEXAS!!!!
sr4440
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 715
Central TEXAS!!!!
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Voltage drop testing is one of the simplest tests in the world to do, but often is over looked. Here is a detailed explanation of how to perform the test.
You will need a volt meter, preferable a digital one. The help of a friend will make testing a lot easier as well. And possibly a set of booster cables if the circuit you are going to test is really long.
A few things that you should know first. When you use a volt meter it displays the difference in voltage from one lead to another. So when you place it across the battery on the + and - posts, and it reads 12.79volts, it means that the difference in voltage between the two posts is 12.79volts.
All the circuits in your car complete themselves at the battery, specifically between the + and - plates inside the battery. So any extra resistance outside the battery, any where in the circuit is a bad thing.
Industry standard for automotive production cars is a .5 total voltage drop in any system. Except maybe your starting system, as the old style starters just draw a ton of amperage. The .5 is divided up as .3 positive and .2 negative. So when we are testing the positive leg of the circuit we will want to see less than .3 of a drop, and less than .2 on the negative side. This is while the device is in use. i.e. if you are checking your lights, they need to be on while doing the check.
So here is how to do the test. Put one lead on one point of the circuit, and the other lead at another point. Say at both ends of a wire. The meter should read zero. Now turn on the device. The reading on the meter is how much the voltage drops between the two leads. If it is on both ends of a wire, then it is how much the voltage drop down that wire. If it is over .3 + or .2 - it needs to be replaced.
Here is an example testing the starter system on an older Ford. It is slow cranking, with a new starter and battery, so we will check for voltage drop issues. First thing we do is put one lead on the positive terminal of the battery, and the other lead on main post of the starter. Try starting it and we get a reading of 1.5volts. So we know there is a 1.5 volt drop on the positive side of the circuit.
So leaving the lead on the battery, we move the other lead up to where the main battery cable from the starter goes to the fenderwall solenoid. We repeat the start, and still get a reading of 1.5volts. So we know that cable is not the problem. (Could have also put the leads on each end of the wire to determine this, but takes longer to do the test).
Next you put the lead on the solenoid's post, and try the test. Still 1.5volts, so we know the connection between the post and the starter cable) is good. So we move the lead to the other post of the fenderwall solenoid, and repeat the test. Now we get a reading of .5 volts on the meter, instead of the 1.5volts. So it would appear that we are losing 1 volt through the solenoid. To confirm that we can put a lead on each post of the solenoid, and try starting it. In this case it does confirm that we dropping 1 volt through the solenoid.
But we still have .5 volts drop. So now we check the cable end at the solenoid, to the battery post. It reads .5volts still. So we then go to the battery post to the cable end at the battery itself. We get a reading still of .5 . So that would mean that between the battery post and the cable end we are losing .5volts, in other words, we have a bad connection.
So you replace the solenoid, clean the battery cable end at the battery. Also preventive clean the solenoid cable ends too. Test the complete system down to the starter again, and get a reading of .2 volts. So we are happy. Moving over ot the negative side. You move one lead to negative post of the battery, and another lead to the body of the starter.
You start the motor and getting a reading of .7 on volt meter. Now you just follow the ground path back every where there is a connection. So first you would go from the negative post to the bell housing, then block, then the ground strap clamp at the block, then to the frame rail, etc, etc. Where ever the drop goes away, then the what ever is between your last point and the new point is likely where the drop is. Always double check it by actually putting the leads on both ends of the item being tested (both ends of a wire, between a clamp and bolt, two posts on a solenoid or relay, two posts on a kill switch, etc).
It should take less than a couple of minutes to check a complete circuit. If the circuit is really long, say with the battery in the trunk. You can clamp a booster cable to the battery, and then to the one lead of the meter, thus extending the lead's length. You can use a small wire even, just booster cables are readily available.
(copied from another site, best explanation i could find)
Joe
Without Data, you’re just another guy with an opinion.
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Re: Starter issues (hot cranking)
[Re: sr4440]
#2342160
07/23/17 10:13 PM
07/23/17 10:13 PM
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,443 central ohio
nss guy
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,443
central ohio
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Voltage drop testing is one of the simplest tests in the world to do, but often is over looked. Here is a detailed explanation of how to perform the test.
You will need a volt meter, preferable a digital one. The help of a friend will make testing a lot easier as well. And possibly a set of booster cables if the circuit you are going to test is really long.
A few things that you should know first. When you use a volt meter it displays the difference in voltage from one lead to another. So when you place it across the battery on the + and - posts, and it reads 12.79volts, it means that the difference in voltage between the two posts is 12.79volts.
All the circuits in your car complete themselves at the battery, specifically between the + and - plates inside the battery. So any extra resistance outside the battery, any where in the circuit is a bad thing.
Industry standard for automotive production cars is a .5 total voltage drop in any system. Except maybe your starting system, as the old style starters just draw a ton of amperage. The .5 is divided up as .3 positive and .2 negative. So when we are testing the positive leg of the circuit we will want to see less than .3 of a drop, and less than .2 on the negative side. This is while the device is in use. i.e. if you are checking your lights, they need to be on while doing the check.
So here is how to do the test. Put one lead on one point of the circuit, and the other lead at another point. Say at both ends of a wire. The meter should read zero. Now turn on the device. The reading on the meter is how much the voltage drops between the two leads. If it is on both ends of a wire, then it is how much the voltage drop down that wire. If it is over .3 + or .2 - it needs to be replaced.
Here is an example testing the starter system on an older Ford. It is slow cranking, with a new starter and battery, so we will check for voltage drop issues. First thing we do is put one lead on the positive terminal of the battery, and the other lead on main post of the starter. Try starting it and we get a reading of 1.5volts. So we know there is a 1.5 volt drop on the positive side of the circuit.
So leaving the lead on the battery, we move the other lead up to where the main battery cable from the starter goes to the fenderwall solenoid. We repeat the start, and still get a reading of 1.5volts. So we know that cable is not the problem. (Could have also put the leads on each end of the wire to determine this, but takes longer to do the test).
Next you put the lead on the solenoid's post, and try the test. Still 1.5volts, so we know the connection between the post and the starter cable) is good. So we move the lead to the other post of the fenderwall solenoid, and repeat the test. Now we get a reading of .5 volts on the meter, instead of the 1.5volts. So it would appear that we are losing 1 volt through the solenoid. To confirm that we can put a lead on each post of the solenoid, and try starting it. In this case it does confirm that we dropping 1 volt through the solenoid.
But we still have .5 volts drop. So now we check the cable end at the solenoid, to the battery post. It reads .5volts still. So we then go to the battery post to the cable end at the battery itself. We get a reading still of .5 . So that would mean that between the battery post and the cable end we are losing .5volts, in other words, we have a bad connection.
So you replace the solenoid, clean the battery cable end at the battery. Also preventive clean the solenoid cable ends too. Test the complete system down to the starter again, and get a reading of .2 volts. So we are happy. Moving over ot the negative side. You move one lead to negative post of the battery, and another lead to the body of the starter.
You start the motor and getting a reading of .7 on volt meter. Now you just follow the ground path back every where there is a connection. So first you would go from the negative post to the bell housing, then block, then the ground strap clamp at the block, then to the frame rail, etc, etc. Where ever the drop goes away, then the what ever is between your last point and the new point is likely where the drop is. Always double check it by actually putting the leads on both ends of the item being tested (both ends of a wire, between a clamp and bolt, two posts on a solenoid or relay, two posts on a kill switch, etc).
It should take less than a couple of minutes to check a complete circuit. If the circuit is really long, say with the battery in the trunk. You can clamp a booster cable to the battery, and then to the one lead of the meter, thus extending the lead's length. You can use a small wire even, just booster cables are readily available.
(copied from another site, best explanation i could find)
Joe Excellent troubleshooting guide !
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Re: Starter issues (hot cranking)
[Re: sr4440]
#2342200
07/23/17 11:43 PM
07/23/17 11:43 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,454 Glendora Ca.
Just-a-dart
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,454
Glendora Ca.
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I use this method of trouble shooting on a lot of different types of electrical systems encluding my car stuff. It works!
The only thing I would add if you use a auto ranging meter pay attention to the decimal point
Last edited by Just-a-dart; 07/23/17 11:45 PM.
"Just a Bracket car dressed up like a streetcar"
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Re: Starter issues (hot cranking)
[Re: JACK1440]
#2342262
07/24/17 01:41 AM
07/24/17 01:41 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421 Balt. Md
383man
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
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Jack if you want to do a voltage drop test I will gladly come over and help you guys if you like. I have been doing voltage drops test most of my auto tech career. And to my surprise most techs dont know how to do simple voltage drop testing. In fact most basic techs I talk with dont even understand it. I had to do it on my 63 last winter when I had a cranking problem even with a new battery. I agree with everyone about the mini starter also as my eng is only 10.6 comp but I have used them since the late 90's with no problems. I can bring my fluke meter over also to use if you dont have one. Ron
Last edited by 383man; 07/24/17 01:42 AM.
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Re: Starter issues (hot cranking)
[Re: JACK1440]
#2342371
07/24/17 12:33 PM
07/24/17 12:33 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,384 Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,384
Las Vegas
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Honestly the frame on a back half car is usually not the best place to ground the battery. I prefer a floating ground system myself that brings all the grounds back to the battery basically. A voltage drop test will show where the issue is. I would NOT use just the motorplate mount as a ground. I would like to see a ground from hear to head then to the floating ground or at least a very solid place on the frame. Try an experiment and connect a cable from the battery to the starter to provide a ground and see If it changes. My guess is you need better grounds.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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