Need a little alignment advice
#2335500
07/11/17 08:45 PM
07/11/17 08:45 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,295 Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
OP
Special needs idiot
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OP
Special needs idiot
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,295
Benton, IL.
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70 Cuda, new components, offset UCA bushings, primarily street car.
Had the car aligned today and static, we got +2.4* caster and -.5* camber on both sides. When I sat in the car, it was still +2.4* caster, BUT the left camber went to -.2* and the right went to -1*. Toe stayed at 1/16".
The car now has a good amount of drift to the right. About 50% of the time there is only myself in the car and then about 50% of the time I have the wife with me. Obviously I need to make an adjustment and the alignment guy is cool and ready to make whatever adjustment we decide on. I just don't know where to set it now.
I didn't think that putting my 190lbs in the seat would affect the readings that much. But they did. And I don't know how much the wife's X number of pounds will affect it to boot.
I am not real particular on the alignment specs. I would just like the car to go down the road straight with either just me or with me and the wife in the car.
What adjustment would you recommend for this?
Master, again and still
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Re: Need a little alignment advice
[Re: JohnH]
#2335577
07/11/17 10:47 PM
07/11/17 10:47 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,295 Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
OP
Special needs idiot
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OP
Special needs idiot
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,295
Benton, IL.
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Yep, power box that I just got back from Firm Feel. I think the issue is that the camber is off side to side with me in the car. And I was just curious if anyone else has dealt with this particular problem.
Master, again and still
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Re: Need a little alignment advice
[Re: DaveRS23]
#2335584
07/11/17 10:57 PM
07/11/17 10:57 PM
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Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 315 Ontario, Canada
RealWing
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 315
Ontario, Canada
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Reputable alignment shops always stagger the caster (or camber) side to side to compensate for the road crown. Then they road test the car to make sure. Doesn't sound like they knew what they were doing IMHO. When that is done correctly, it will track straight.
1970 Superbird 440-6bbl, auto 1969 Barracuda 340-4bbl, FB Formula S auto 1969 Barracuda 6.1 L Hemi, 5 speed, Convertible 2022 Can Am Spyder RTL
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Re: Need a little alignment advice
[Re: DaveRS23]
#2335586
07/11/17 10:58 PM
07/11/17 10:58 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041
Lincoln Nebraska
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I ask for as much positive caster as can be obtained and zero camber & 1/16 to 1/8 of toe in. Most shop regs wont let a customer sit in the car while it is on the rack so I set my weight in barbells on the pass side then have the tech pull em over to the drivers seat when he exits the vehicle after he drives on the rack & some machines compensate for drivers weight (talk to your man). You may or may not want to have the wifes' weight in barbells on the pass side. ahead of time I get the toe straight and the camber to zero & the ride height (tbars) where I want (tire fit looks good in the wheelwell) then I drive it several miles then recheck/readjust the ride height as needed then drive to the shop. 1/2 tank of gas/tires aired up. jounce/bounce to confirm the ride height (it will settle) then I tell him not to change it but he may if needed SLIGHTLY adj it side to side to get both sides even.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Need a little alignment advice
[Re: DaveRS23]
#2335836
07/12/17 12:02 PM
07/12/17 12:02 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,295 Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
OP
Special needs idiot
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OP
Special needs idiot
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,295
Benton, IL.
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I have been driving the car for a couple of months so that everything could settle in, especially the ride height. I will switch the tires, but they are new so that shouldn't be the issue.
I have read and re-read the alignment threads, but didn't see much about having weight in the seats, so I was surprised that it had as much impact as it did.
+2.4* caster was all we could get, even with the offset bushings. But that didn't change when I put my butt in the seat.
The big surprise for me was that the pass side camber went from -.5* to -1*. Added to the driver's side change from -.5* to -.2*, that is a difference of .8* camber side to side. That is the likely culprit here, isn't it?
The alignment guy has many years experience (although not on Mopars) and seems ready to do what it takes to get this done. So sitting in the car shouldn't be an issue.
Should the wife and I go and get readings with both of us in the car and then with just me in the car and kinda split the difference in settings? Seems a little convoluted to me, but if that is what it takes then I would do it.
Thanks for the input, guys. I appreciate it.
Master, again and still
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Re: Need a little alignment advice
[Re: DaveRS23]
#2335842
07/12/17 12:17 PM
07/12/17 12:17 PM
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Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 5,956 ohio
ruderunner
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 5,956
ohio
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New or not, cross the tires. They can cause a pull right off the bat.
Put the weight on the driver's seat and recheck ride height then recheck the specs.
Angry white pureblood male
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Re: Need a little alignment advice
[Re: DaveRS23]
#2335944
07/12/17 02:44 PM
07/12/17 02:44 PM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,677 in a cattle trailer down by th...
Guitar Jones
Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
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Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,677
in a cattle trailer down by th...
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Camber will not have too much of an effect on drifting from one side or the other. Caster does though. I always try to set them up with .5 degree less on the left to compensate for road crown.
"Follow me the wise man said, but he walked behind"
'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion. '74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NV4500, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Rear disc and hydroboost conversion. 2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi.
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Re: Need a little alignment advice
[Re: Guitar Jones]
#2336048
07/12/17 05:57 PM
07/12/17 05:57 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041
Lincoln Nebraska
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yes the weight info does sound potentially convoluted. the tire man further above sounds convincing so I would check that potential. Did it drift before or NA?. I would talk to the alignment guy again or even just call another shop (maybe a Mopar shop) tho I wouldn't think that would be real critical as alignment is alignment (for the most part) & tell em what happened (no names will likely get a better chance of good info) & there are alot of heavy bodied customers these days so it should not be a fresh never dealt with before issue. Post how it turns out.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Need a little alignment advice
[Re: RapidRobert]
#2336156
07/12/17 09:09 PM
07/12/17 09:09 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,295 Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
OP
Special needs idiot
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OP
Special needs idiot
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,295
Benton, IL.
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Welllllllll.......the rest of the story is that this is the second shop I have had it at. The first didn't even get it close and they worked on it for hours. There just aren't any shops around here that have done any old Mopars.
This guy is independent, has years of (other) brand experience, and says he is ready to do what it takes to get the job done. We'll see.
I didn't get a chance today to try the suggestions offered here, I hope to tomorrow. And then I'll give the alignment shop another shot.
One last piece of info; I have 318 bars in the car. They are supporting an al. head Hemi and 518OD. Obviously way more weight than they were designed for. The ride height is good and the adjustment bolts are still below the LCAs. But they may let the nose drop more than normal when the driver climbs aboard. Which may then affect the adjustments more than normal.
I will try to influence the results with the suggestions offered above and then, if all else fails, consider installing heavier bars.
Master, again and still
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Re: Need a little alignment advice
[Re: DaveRS23]
#2336167
07/12/17 09:39 PM
07/12/17 09:39 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041
Lincoln Nebraska
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You might have someone measure how far the left & right sides move down when you and or you & passenger enter the vehicle. Maybe the 318 bars are too light but I would think not an issue since you were able to crank em up to a good height. Maybe it wouldn't hurt to weigh the front end & see exactly how much weight is on the bars. whatever is causing the "drifting" I think is critical. On my 65 dart SB they kept the RH where I set it & set the camber to zero but they said the caster was way different on one side likely from something bent & I had told em to get as much positive caster as they could. it floated down the street perfect (power st). my next one I'm gonna level it myself (utube), likely "string it" then start with turning the cams for max caster then bring the rear one out till I get zero camber (carpenters 2 ft level glued vertical to the rims) & let the caster fall where it may. If I did do caster there are some interesting vids using floor tiles with salt inbetween em for easy turning. On my dart I used some monstrous circle track tbars (all I had at the time except /6 bars) & it rode awesome (+ 003/003 SS rear springs).
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Need a little alignment advice
[Re: DaveRS23]
#2336189
07/12/17 10:19 PM
07/12/17 10:19 PM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,677 in a cattle trailer down by th...
Guitar Jones
Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
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Paddle faster! I hear banjo music!
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,677
in a cattle trailer down by th...
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Welllllllll.......the rest of the story is that this is the second shop I have had it at. The first didn't even get it close and they worked on it for hours. There just aren't any shops around here that have done any old Mopars.
This guy is independent, has years of (other) brand experience, and says he is ready to do what it takes to get the job done. We'll see.
I didn't get a chance today to try the suggestions offered here, I hope to tomorrow. And then I'll give the alignment shop another shot.
One last piece of info; I have 318 bars in the car. They are supporting an al. head Hemi and 518OD. Obviously way more weight than they were designed for. The ride height is good and the adjustment bolts are still below the LCAs. But they may let the nose drop more than normal when the driver climbs aboard. Which may then affect the adjustments more than normal.
I will try to influence the results with the suggestions offered above and then, if all else fails, consider installing heavier bars. Unless you are going for a road race vehicle the weight is not the issue. We used to set the drivers side 1/2" higher than the right to compensate since most of the time a car only has one occupant. Adding weight rarely affects caster and it's caster that affects how straight a car tracks all else being in spec. Can you get a car to pull with camber adjustments? Yeah you can but you have to slant both wheels to one side to do it. So it's no longer close to preferred spec. Your problem is either equal caster or too much caster on the left. It could also be a tire issue as tires are not only never round they are also conical to some degree.
"Follow me the wise man said, but he walked behind"
'92 D250 Club Cab CTD, 47RH conversion, pump tweaks, injectors, rear disc and hydroboost conversion. '74 W200 Crew Cab 360, NV4500, D44, D60 and NP205 divorced transfer case. Rear disc and hydroboost conversion. 2019 1500 Long Horn Crew Cab 4WD, 5.7 Hemi.
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Re: Need a little alignment advice
[Re: RapidRobert]
#2336202
07/12/17 10:39 PM
07/12/17 10:39 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,376
dogdays
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,376
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There are two components that you guys are discussing and it's important not to get them confused. 1. Spring force - how much weight the spring is resisting 2. Spring rate - How the spring reacts to a change in weight or force.
In this particular case, the smaller diameter bars have a lower spring rate and therefore will deflect more with a unit change in force, while a larger diameter bar of the same length will deflect less.
The general equation is F = KX, where F is Force, K is the spring rate and X is the amount of deflection. It's easier to follow if you think of a coil spring, like a valve spring.
The torsion bar is exactly like a coil spring, except the coil has been straightened out. Chrysler engineers liked to do their own thing so they talk about the combined effect of the torsion bar and length of the control arm, they call this wheel rate. That's the number of lb force it takes to raise the wheel 1".
The important takehome from this discussion is that while the smaller diameter bar will support the load, the suspension will deflect more with every additional pound it is asked to support. That's no matter how much the bar is already supporting.
R.
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Re: Need a little alignment advice
[Re: Guitar Jones]
#2336225
07/12/17 11:10 PM
07/12/17 11:10 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,295 Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
OP
Special needs idiot
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OP
Special needs idiot
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,295
Benton, IL.
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Unless you are going for a road race vehicle the weight is not the issue. We used to set the drivers side 1/2" higher than the right to compensate since most of the time a car only has one occupant. Adding weight rarely affects caster and it's caster that affects how straight a car tracks all else being in spec.
Can you get a car to pull with camber adjustments? Yeah you can but you have to slant both wheels to one side to do it. So it's no longer close to preferred spec.
Your problem is either equal caster or too much caster on the left. It could also be a tire issue as tires are not only never round they are also conical to some degree.
Boy, I am with you on the out-of-round tire thing. We balance a fair amount of tires and I am shocked at how many are not even close to being round. I will swap my front tires side to side, hopefully tomorrow and drive it. And it's interesting your point on the camber having little affect on drifting to one side or the other. Because the camber changed a substantial amount with my weight in the car. But just as you noted in your post, the caster changed only slightly. Both sides, with and without my butt in the seat stayed in the +2.3* to +2.5* range. As I said, first I will swap the front tires and see what happens. If that doesn't move the problem or fix the problem, then I might pull a bit of caster out of the driver's side. It has to go back to the rack anyway, so I can't really do it any harm. Thank you!
Master, again and still
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Re: Need a little alignment advice.......Update.....SUCCESS!
[Re: DaveRS23]
#2336668
07/13/17 09:57 PM
07/13/17 09:57 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,295 Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
OP
Special needs idiot
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OP
Special needs idiot
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,295
Benton, IL.
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SUCCESS!!! Rather than switch the tires around, I just bought a new pair of Michelin Defenders. Good tires, very round and neither one took more then 3/4oz weight, total. But that wasn't it, it still drifted right. So with Guitar Jones' advice that a right drift would be caused by the left having too much caster, I hit the interwebs and gleaned enough info to try a bit of experimentation. I marked the position of the cam bolts on the left side and moved the front one in just a bit. Re-installed the tire and test drove. It was better. So after a couple more small moves inward on the front cam bolt, it goes down the road good and straight. Thanks guys for all the help, especially Guitar Jones for the specific info without which I wouldn't have known just what to tackle. Now, one last question; do I need to do anything with the toe? It didn't take much movement on the cam bolt, but it did have to move and that does affect the toe, doesn't it? Thanks again, guys!
Last edited by DaveRS23; 07/13/17 11:05 PM.
Master, again and still
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