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Hemi or Wedge #2323829
06/19/17 09:21 PM
06/19/17 09:21 PM
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Hemicuda7 Offline OP
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I'm wanting to build a new engine for my 68 tube chassis barracuda. I would like to be at 1000hp NA. Just would like to here some suggestions. I have a brand new powerglide, so would like to stay with that. I would like to know if I went with a bigger ci hemi, a power glide would be fine. The car weighs 2554 with me in it. Not sure if the hemi would be better with a TF behind it? Any help would be great.

Re: Hemi or Wedge [Re: Hemicuda7] #2323836
06/19/17 09:33 PM
06/19/17 09:33 PM
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Bend,OR USA
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Cab_Burge Offline
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How fast do you want to go?
I've made more HP per C.I. on my N/A wedge builds than on any N/A Hemi build confused shruggy
1000 HP on a wedge shouldn't be hard with a good race block and a good set of B1-MC or Predator heads shruggy work
I've built one 542 C.I. B1 bracket motor that made 920 HP pretty easy with a non max tuned carb. :shruggy
My next bracket motor for myself will be set up for either E85 or straight Alky with a set of B1-MC heads on a Koleno 4.500 bore block with a 4.375 stroke crankshaft(555 C.I., I think) with BB Chevy rod journals up
I'm expecting north of 1000 HP on that motor using one of those fuels luck
My 2750 lb.(with me in it) tube chassis bracket 1970 Cuda has gone 9.00 @ 147.+ MPH with a mild 505 C.I. bracket motor on E85 with a set of non ported Eddy Victor M.W. heads with a Mikes Monster glide and a 9 inch Continental converter built for a lot bigger higher H.P motor that was in the car before I bought it without the motor, it came with that trans and converter.


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Hemi or Wedge [Re: Cab_Burge] #2324057
06/20/17 10:29 AM
06/20/17 10:29 AM
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Hemicuda7 Offline OP
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I would like to be high 7's low 8's. You think a glide would be ok with a hemi? Alot more maintenance with a hemi compared to a wedge?

Re: Hemi or Wedge [Re: Hemicuda7] #2324061
06/20/17 10:34 AM
06/20/17 10:34 AM
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Marion, South Carolina [><]
an8sec70cuda Offline
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The hemi will be 2 or 3 grand more expensive I bet than a comparable wedge. One will not require any more maintenance than the other as long as you buy quality parts...mainly valvetrain.

I'd absolutely run a powerglide...behind either motor.


CHIP
'70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60
'69 road runner, 440-6, 18 spline 4 speed, Dana 60
'71 Demon, 340, low gear 904, 8.75
'73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75
'90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt
'06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
Re: Hemi or Wedge [Re: Hemicuda7] #2324374
06/20/17 08:55 PM
06/20/17 08:55 PM
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back in Georgia
dthemi Offline
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I'd agree, and I do so love a hemi.

The best head we have available at present, in my opinion, is Predator. I think you'd have to pull off a plug wire to get down to a thousand with a good set of predators.

A hemi is the same money until you buy rocker arms. A good set is double the cost of good wedge rockers. Go for the top line rockers and you'll spend 4-5 thousand.

Re: Hemi or Wedge [Re: dthemi] #2324520
06/21/17 02:13 AM
06/21/17 02:13 AM
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Arizona, USA
gsmopar Offline
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Originally Posted By dthemi
I'd agree, and I do so love a hemi.

The best head we have available at present, in my opinion, is Predator. I think you'd have to pull off a plug wire to get down to a thousand with a good set of predators.

A hemi is the same money until you buy rocker arms. A good set is double the cost of good wedge rockers. Go for the top line rockers and you'll spend 4-5 thousand.


I don't think I spent 5g's, but I'll check my receipt:


Re: Hemi or Wedge [Re: Hemicuda7] #2324527
06/21/17 02:47 AM
06/21/17 02:47 AM
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Great Neck,LI,new york
hemi-itis Offline
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HEMI.........either you have one or you want one............


HEMI-ITIS has no cure.
My condition is fully BLOWN!!
Re: Hemi or Wedge [Re: hemi-itis] #2324541
06/21/17 04:05 AM
06/21/17 04:05 AM
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Bend,OR USA
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Originally Posted By hemi-itis
HEMI.........either you have one or you want one............
haha
I've had five or six and built a bunch more for other people, that is one of the reasons I call them Hemiroids motors haha grin
I built a new pump gas street blown Hemi Mega block that was 4.310 x 4.250 with a Littlefield 10:70 street blower and a pair of Carb Shop blower Dominator carbs, it made 924 HP at 7300 RPM on CA pump swill making 7.0 lbs of boost, we change it to race gas and change the pulleys form 12% underiven to 13 % over drive which raised the boost to 12.0 lbs at 6500 RPM making 1027 HP and then went into detonation whiney
I built a bracket 542 C.I. B1 motor with a single Dominator carb. with right at 13.0 to 1 compression ratio that made 920 HP 6500 RPM on 110 octane race gas not tuned up work
My message is there are more than one way to make good power with Mopar BB motors boogie devil

Last edited by Cab_Burge; 06/21/17 04:07 AM.

Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Hemi or Wedge [Re: Hemicuda7] #2324596
06/21/17 10:42 AM
06/21/17 10:42 AM
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New York
polyspheric Offline
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RB + Procharger = cheap power, far fewer $$$ parts.
Remember: as Larry Widmer says, "RPM" means "ruins people's motors"


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Re: Hemi or Wedge [Re: Hemicuda7] #2324610
06/21/17 11:23 AM
06/21/17 11:23 AM
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Posts: 2,299
NE Ohio
DoubleD Offline
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Given both engines are on an equal foundation - meaning using a mega block or aftermarket aluminum block - and you are shooting for the 1000 HP naturally aspirated - the cost is going to be practically the same at that power level - the big difference in the HEMI is valve train a good Barton set-up is $4000 - a wedge will be around $2000 - $3000 depending on what head you use. T&D makes the Barton set-up and it is a piece of engine art. Cost of an engine at that power level with all new parts figure 35,000 - 40,000 depending what you pick.

In the end the HEMI is just cool factor

Re: Hemi or Wedge [Re: gsmopar] #2324619
06/21/17 11:45 AM
06/21/17 11:45 AM
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back in Georgia
dthemi Offline
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Originally Posted By gsmopar
Originally Posted By dthemi
I'd agree, and I do so love a hemi.

The best head we have available at present, in my opinion, is Predator. I think you'd have to pull off a plug wire to get down to a thousand with a good set of predators.

A hemi is the same money until you buy rocker arms. A good set is double the cost of good wedge rockers. Go for the top line rockers and you'll spend 4-5 thousand.


I don't think I spent 5g's, but I'll check my receipt:




The T+Ds are great rockers for sure, and what i run the most of, but not the best rockers for a hemi. Buck up for Jesel with tool steel exhaust, and 5G will vanish before you can crank it.

Re: Hemi or Wedge [Re: polyspheric] #2324625
06/21/17 11:56 AM
06/21/17 11:56 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
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Marion, South Carolina [><]
an8sec70cuda Offline
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Originally Posted By polyspheric
RB + Procharger = cheap power, far fewer $$$ parts.

No, not really. Prochargers aren't cheap by any means. No cheaper than an equivalent nitrous motor or roots blown combo to make the same power. No cheaper than a N/A combo either depending on what power level we're referring to.
The cheap/fast/reliable saying comes to mind here. Pick 2 and ride w/ it.


CHIP
'70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60
'69 road runner, 440-6, 18 spline 4 speed, Dana 60
'71 Demon, 340, low gear 904, 8.75
'73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75
'90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt
'06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
Re: Hemi or Wedge [Re: Hemicuda7] #2324632
06/21/17 12:07 PM
06/21/17 12:07 PM
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Posts: 2,653
Stuttgart, Arkansas
rickseeman Offline
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Either one will make 1000 HP NA so it's a matter of personal preference. I like Hemi's.


2011 Drag Pak Challenger
Re: Hemi or Wedge [Re: Hemicuda7] #2324637
06/21/17 12:14 PM
06/21/17 12:14 PM
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Las Vegas
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I have done both the Hemi and Wedge in a tube chassis 68 Barracuda. IMO a wedge based deal is the way to go, if for no other reason weight, and the aforementioned cost of rockers. I have had a few 1000+HP Wedge head deals. We currently have 2 B1's and a Predator. FWIW my 525" B1 in my Cuda went 171 at 2975.


"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."

"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
Re: Hemi or Wedge [Re: Hemicuda7] #2324783
06/21/17 03:47 PM
06/21/17 03:47 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,209
New York
polyspheric Offline
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Nitrous "mistakes" tend to be just that tiny bit more expensive... like taking out the whole car.
Prochargers fit under the hood, and don't blow up.

My street car is turbo because it's factory, but it's a lot of work if you have no support.


Boffin Emeritus
Re: Hemi or Wedge [Re: polyspheric] #2324798
06/21/17 04:12 PM
06/21/17 04:12 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,375
Marion, South Carolina [><]
an8sec70cuda Offline
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Marion, South Carolina [><]
Originally Posted By polyspheric
Nitrous "mistakes" tend to be just that tiny bit more expensive... like taking out the whole car.
Prochargers fit under the hood, and don't blow up.

My street car is turbo because it's factory, but it's a lot of work if you have no support.

LOL, quality information right there. rolleyes


CHIP
'70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60
'69 road runner, 440-6, 18 spline 4 speed, Dana 60
'71 Demon, 340, low gear 904, 8.75
'73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75
'90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt
'06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
Re: Hemi or Wedge [Re: an8sec70cuda] #2324824
06/21/17 05:17 PM
06/21/17 05:17 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,376
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dogdays Offline
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Big motor, lightweight car = 'Glide. Doesn't matter what the combustion chamber looks like.

For reasons I cannot understand, the powerglide just works better with that combination. Maybe it uses the torque converter better.

Thing is, I keep remembering the powerglide in a 283 powered Chevelle and it just simply needed more gears. This was a bone-stock street car. We didn't know about torque converters back then, either.

R.

Re: Hemi or Wedge [Re: polyspheric] #2324862
06/21/17 07:12 PM
06/21/17 07:12 PM
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Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Dragula Offline
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My 2 cents.....and I love Hemis, but they can be a pain at times.

If the right matching parts are used, it will make great power without going crazy on compression and cam lift. Ours make over 800hp on pump gas...Had some issues half way into the first year with it, kinda working them out now...but my issues have been with the oiling system and lack of a big enough pan on my current engine and we hadn't put oil restrictors in the heads. Had many others over the years.

But what I have seen on the Predator headed motors, is no goofing around no BS valve train with just dead on geometry...Meaning it all fits and works really well with astonishing spring pressures and crazy lift ratios and it holds up...Hemis don't like all that with respect to high lift and big ratios on the valve train. Its a lot of maintenance and its tough on parts with them. They tend to reach a point of sacrificing lift for less maintenance unless you go spendy with the T&D Barton setup.

Me, I would be open to trying one of those Predator engines, probably would have if there were sombody making headers for them. Obviously, not a lot of people go this route, so no off the shelf headers...That is one expense that can be $1300 or $2500....

I think its going to depend on your preference and goals. I think in the long run the Predator is cheaper, and a better choice, but that's just based on my watching these guys...One other Predator expense you might incur other than headers is a offset distributor or jesel belt drive one. I do not believe a standard MSD will clear..

And a glide will be fine behind either at that weight...




Last edited by Dragula; 06/21/17 07:18 PM.

'70 Cuda,...605 EFI Hemi Street Car (6.20 best pass, 1.33 60ft)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYw6RA-k5Bk (6.25 at 108.75mph from inside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zQEb9uxFng (6.25 at 108mph from outside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCvfzsC4NgM (9.9)

'66 Barracuda AWB Stretched nose Blown 440 Car in build stage

'71 Duster Drag Car 400 Low Deck 512 best 6.002 at 115.44mph
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Znuo3jMUXTk
Re: Hemi or Wedge [Re: Hemicuda7] #2324941
06/21/17 10:11 PM
06/21/17 10:11 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,209
New York
polyspheric Offline
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Just a historical note: Powerglide was useless until about 1970 when Marvin Ripes of A-1 developed a good converter for his C1 Corvette. This means in a practical sense that even if $$$ "bullet-proof" (hah!) internals are used, a PG is only as good as the converter as to both careful selection (stall) and quality (efficiency, slip). This means $$$ well spent.

So far, purpose-built carburetors have made blow-through, with a good hat into the right aftermarket (not fabricated) manifold, affordable with very little power loss... in a race engine.
Still a PITA for a street car, and the extra $$$ for quality EFI is what ruins the budget.


Boffin Emeritus
Re: Hemi or Wedge [Re: Hemicuda7] #2324945
06/21/17 10:18 PM
06/21/17 10:18 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
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New York
polyspheric Offline
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A blower (centrifugal, roots, turbo) develops lower peak cylinder pressure, and less strain on the walls, than a NA or especially nitrous (which has a giant bang that must be kept far away from TDC!!) engine with the same average power. The wider torque range will ET better with the same gearing.

It is also happy at lower RPM, which means;
cheaper, smaller port volume heads with better manners
less manifold volume for better response
lighter pistons with (almost) no dome
less rod beam section and a bit less $$$ rod bolts
less cam duration, overlap and lift
less rocker $$$
less valve spring for longer service life
tuned exhaust less important, just big


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