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Re: Front End Issues Continue to Haunt Me [Re: MoparDonny] #232228
02/22/09 04:12 PM
02/22/09 04:12 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
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Quote:

Not that I know ANYTHING about front end geometry, but could some of this be avoided if the brake bias was a little more generous to the rear brakes? Within reason and safety of course.
Just thinking out loud.

Don.




Sure it can... most likely it would be a proportionate value

Re: Front End Issues Continue to Haunt Me [Re: Lil Demon] #232229
02/23/09 04:08 PM
02/23/09 04:08 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 531
USA
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540DUSTER Offline
mopar
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lil demon,have you ever measured the toe of each wheel by itself thru its full range? I bet if your car is like mine one wheel toes in and the other toes out when you hit the brakes.

Re: Front End Issues Continue to Haunt Me [Re: 540DUSTER] #232230
02/23/09 04:11 PM
02/23/09 04:11 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,746
Riverside, California
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Lil Demon Offline OP
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I hadn't thought about that.

Re: Front End Issues Continue to Haunt Me [Re: Lil Demon] #232231
02/24/09 10:44 AM
02/24/09 10:44 AM
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Posts: 6,840
The Swamp
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Sixpak Offline
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The Swamp
What MoparTeacher and Fish540 are referring to are all in the MP Chassis manual. It tells you how to plot the toe changes through the range of front end travel, and what to do to correct it. Most of what is there in the manual will apply to you, with the one caveat that it applies to a stock K frame and how to modify it to help correct the problem. But the underlying principles are the same.
Along with that I would also look at the possible flexing in some of the lighter weight components in the front end.

Re: Front End Issues Continue to Haunt Me [Re: Sixpak] #232232
02/24/09 12:11 PM
02/24/09 12:11 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,442
LOWELL IN
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LOWELL IN
http://www.heidts.com/pdf/Understanding_IFS.pdf

this link explains it all,when i made my own front end i used this info to set it up.

works great

my home made front end

https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...&PHPSESSID=

Last edited by QWK_ENUF_511; 02/24/09 12:12 PM.

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Re: Front End Issues Continue to Haunt Me [Re: mopar_to_ya] #232233
02/24/09 01:35 PM
02/24/09 01:35 PM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,283
Colorado,U.S.A
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Quote:

Quote:

It shakes only whenyou're braking??? Sounds like warped brake rotors too me Simple fix






My LRT does the same thing about midway through the shutdown. If I lift off the brakes and re apply then it usually stops. But if you all are cracking steering arms, that scares me. I thought I was the only one out there with this problem. I guess I'll have to do some more checking.
Rob told me that the new steering arm design would fix any issues, but I never got any to find out for sure.




I have a LRT, and the same problem. When I changed to the frontend, I also picked up some MPH. I started having the shimmy/shaking problem at shut down hitting the brakes. I replace the rotors, pads, and bearings, still have the shakes. I just ordered a new hub and bearings, thinking that there may be something with the races in the hub? I'm having to push on the brakes, then let off, then lightly on the brakes again. Doing this the return road comes up quick at 147. This year the car will be 155 mph or so. I'll be watching this, and trying things suggested.

I don't run the washers for the strut rod bushings this way, they are turned around from this old pic.

Last edited by 4404dart; 02/25/09 10:35 AM.
Re: Front End Issues Continue to Haunt Me [Re: autoxcuda] #232234
02/24/09 01:39 PM
02/24/09 01:39 PM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,532
off the grid
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I gotta get me one them thar Bum Steer guages!


Yeah, it's got a smallblock.
Re: Front End Issues Continue to Haunt Me [Re: Sixpak] #232235
02/24/09 02:21 PM
02/24/09 02:21 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
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Sport440 Offline
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The MP Chassis charts are for Rear steer. Once you understand how they work you will have to reverse the results to apply them to a Front steer.

As a example, if a tie rod is to long on a Rear steer it will toe the wheel In. That same tie rod would on a Front steer will toe the wheel Out. To use those MP charts all one May only have to do is to reverse all " toe in and toe out " verbage. But to be sure I would have to examine those charts again.


That Heids Pdf explains the front suspension pretty well. Longacre Racing has a well detailed artcle as well. I will try to find a link. mike

Re: Front End Issues Continue to Haunt Me [Re: 540dust] #232236
02/24/09 06:06 PM
02/24/09 06:06 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 986
Indiana
MFR440 Offline
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Indiana
Quote:

Does it kinda do this:





WOW! Cool video!! Where'd you get that?!


Re: Front End Issues Continue to Haunt Me [Re: MFR440] #232237
02/24/09 06:27 PM
02/24/09 06:27 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 656
Kokomo, IN
540dust Offline
mopar
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Kokomo, IN
MFR440 Hope you don't mind I latched on to that a long time ago cause I was having the same trouble with a DARE at the time, I worked my tail off on that thing trying to get the bumpster out of it, but as I said before, never helped, what fixed it was to get rid of it, that fixed it. Great vid, brings out the scarey factor really well.

Re: Front End Issues Continue to Haunt Me [Re: 540dust] #232238
02/24/09 08:33 PM
02/24/09 08:33 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,176
Park Forest, IL
slantzilla Offline
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A couple members here had the asame issues with the LRT front end a couple years ago. The fix was front wheels with more offset.


"Everybody funny, now you funny too."
Re: Front End Issues Continue to Haunt Me [Re: 4404dart] #232239
02/24/09 11:35 PM
02/24/09 11:35 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,327
south central,Pa
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south central,Pa
Quote:

I have a LRT, and the same problem. When I changed to the frontend, I also picked up some MPH. I started having the shimmy/shaking problem at shut down hitting the brakes. I replace the rotors, pads, and bearings, still have the shakes. I just ordered a new hub and bearings, thinking that there may be something with the races in the hub? I'm having to push on the brakes, then let off, then lightly on the brakes again. Doing this the return road comes up quick at 147. This year the car will be 155 mph or so. I'll be watching this, and trying things suggested.




I have had this issue since day one. I feel your pain watching the turnoff coming at a HIGH rate of speed . Now I see that Chuck at Best had a steering arm crack. I'm going to go back over my frontend before I put my motor back in this time. I see you have the newest version of the k-frame with the extra added braces, so I'm thinking that isn't an issue. And I was also told it was the wheel offset on the front wheels, but I already have the most offset in that you can buy. I'm also going to try another strut rod set-up on mine that is more rigid but much more free than stock.
Keep me posted, and I'll do the same.

BTW 440dart, I also run the torsion bar set-up.

5051090-LRT2.jpg (114 downloads)
Re: Front End Issues Continue to Haunt Me [Re: slantzilla] #232240
02/24/09 11:41 PM
02/24/09 11:41 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,839
NW Indiana
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fbs63 Offline
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I have the LRT K and never had a problem. My car has gone 153 mph. My alignment is 3 deg caster,0 camber and 1/16 toe in. That being said I do think an alignment with max caster and 0 toe causes this shake with this particular K member. I know people who have switched from 1.75 to 2.25 offset wheels and solved the problem also.
Bob

5051112-CarPic2.jpg (61 downloads)
Re: Front End Issues Continue to Haunt Me [Re: mopar_to_ya] #232241
02/25/09 12:10 AM
02/25/09 12:10 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
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Sport440 Offline
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Mopar to ya, Just from your pics, your tie rod angle is wrong in relationship to the lower control arm.

It either needs to be raised at the inner pivot point or dropped at the outer pivot point, or a combination of both. Just my opinion from the pics. A full view of both the inner and outer pivot points would be better for me to judge.

But no doubt, you have bump steer issues or issues as you already know. mike

Re: Front End Issues Continue to Haunt Me [Re: fbs63] #232242
02/25/09 12:12 AM
02/25/09 12:12 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,327
south central,Pa
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Quote:

My alignment is 3 deg caster,0 camber and 1/16 toe in. That being said I do think an alignment with max caster and 0 toe causes this shake with this particular K member. I know people who have switched from 1.75 to 2.25 offset wheels and solved the problem also.
Bob







Hey Bob,
I wasn't aware you ran a LRT. Have you always run 3 deg of caster? I was told to run more and that's the way mine is aligned. I already run the 2.25 offset wheels. I run 0 camber and 1/16th toe in too. Is yours a torsion bar set-up or coil over? Let me know.
Thanks and take care.
Love your car

Re: Front End Issues Continue to Haunt Me [Re: Sport440] #232243
02/25/09 12:20 AM
02/25/09 12:20 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,327
south central,Pa
mopar_to_ya Offline
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Quote:

Mopar to ya, Just from your pics, your tie rod angle is wrong in relationship to the lower control arm.





You got me thinking now, but I am pretty sure that was a pic before it was aligned. But I will surely check tomorrow. I was just showing the style of steering arm I have compared to 440dart's.

Re: Front End Issues Continue to Haunt Me [Re: mopar_to_ya] #232244
02/25/09 12:39 AM
02/25/09 12:39 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,839
NW Indiana
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Mopar to ya,
The alignment has been the same since I brought the car out. I have coil-overs on the front so that may be the difference. The people that I have talked to that had shake also had a lot of caster so there has to be something there.
Bob

Re: Front End Issues Continue to Haunt Me [Re: mopar_to_ya] #232245
02/25/09 12:51 AM
02/25/09 12:51 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 525
IL
DRAGRCR632 Offline
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IL
im goin to make one post on this subject

first the shimmy IS NOT bumpsteer period
the shimmy is from one of 2 things

strut bushings install in correctly or loose
(which will also shimmy on a stock K the same)

second cause is an angle called scrub raduis
of the cars that shimmy are 73 and up
a body and B body style spindle i adressed this in the newer style arm by moving the ball joint location
with ALL 73 and up deals i sell you MUST use
the newer arm mill back of the spindle a min .250
and use the 2.25 offset 3.5 wide wheel
i thought i had solved all of them out there
but as i see on moparts i havent
its funny of the people on here not one has
contacted me directly to talk over to see what
can be done to help solve it(as i said above)
chuck was the only one but cant say for sure
what caused his to crack
i will tell you this the shimmy is direct cause
of most of the crackin or a voilent wheelin heavy
car

i have 100s of customers out there with NO SHIMMY
73 and up & 9-10 drum


LRT

Re: Front End Issues Continue to Haunt Me [Re: mopar_to_ya] #232246
02/25/09 12:52 AM
02/25/09 12:52 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
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Sport440 Offline
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Canton, Ohio
Mopar to ya. Your right, the alignment setup, caster, can change the tie rod angle significantly up or down compared to the lower control arm.

Positive caster moves the outer tie rod pivot point up while negative caster moves the outer tie rod pivot point down by over a 1"+ or so. This also effects toe in and out a bunch.

I didnt mean to single you out, Just trying to pass a little info along from what ive learned with my car.

Ive been working and honing issues on my R/P car since 96. Im finally starting to figure things out. mike

Re: Front End Issues Continue to Haunt Me [Re: DRAGRCR632] #232247
02/25/09 09:14 AM
02/25/09 09:14 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,327
south central,Pa
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south central,Pa
Rob,
I'm not busting your coconuts. I see that another member has my same issue and with the newer k and arms, and I simply stated that must not be the problem. My car drives great, it just shimmys in the shutdown. And we spoke about this a year ago. Mine is et-up exactly the way you told me and I have the 2.25 offset wheel. I've never gotten the newer arms. I just want to check mine over since I see Chuck's arms were cracked.
As far as the main post with LilDemon, I think most of your problem is in the dare k-frame itself.

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