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#2333047 - 07/07/17 11:09 AM Re: 383 HP 330vs335 hp [Re: 383man]
dan9 Offline
super stock

Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1010
Loc: pa.
Thank you for clearing that up for me. Back then we had to rely on the car mags for info. It seems like the older these cars get the more people know about them. The mags back then said the 70 motors were smog motors and rated at less hp.


Edited by dan9 (07/07/17 11:15 AM)

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#2333103 - 07/07/17 12:59 PM Re: 383 HP 330vs335 hp [Re: Bad B-rad]
dart4forte Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/31/03
Posts: 14570
Loc: Mesa, Arizona
Several years ago a buddy of mine who owns a flow bench did a flow comparison between the various exhaust manifolds. The test was done out of curiosity and from a similar thread on moparts posted at the time. The test was to measure flow and port velocity. The manifolds tested were the B body magnum driver side, C Body magnum Driver side and my 68 GTS 383 driver side manifold. All the subjects were tested at 25" of Vacum. All the exhaust ports were tested to come up with an average

Both the B and C manifolds flowed within 5" of each other. Both had the heat riser with the flap wide open. The A Body driver side manifold flowed slightly less on average between the B and C. The number wasn't significant. It had the heat riser removed.

Of course I went looking for the charts in all my stuff that's still unpacked from our move two years ago and have yet to find them. I'll be going up north next month where I can get copies to post.


Edited by dart4forte (07/07/17 01:01 PM)

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#2333163 - 07/07/17 02:31 PM Re: 383 HP 330vs335 hp [Re: dart4forte]
Rhinodart Online   penguin-006
Rhinotruck

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 37530
Loc: Round Lake Beach, Illinoisy
Originally Posted By dart4forte
Several years ago a buddy of mine who owns a flow bench did a flow comparison between the various exhaust manifolds. The test was done out of curiosity and from a similar thread on moparts posted at the time. The test was to measure flow and port velocity. The manifolds tested were the B body magnum driver side, C Body magnum Driver side and my 68 GTS 383 driver side manifold. All the subjects were tested at 25" of Vacum. All the exhaust ports were tested to come up with an average

Both the B and C manifolds flowed within 5" of each other. Both had the heat riser with the flap wide open. The A Body driver side manifold flowed slightly less on average between the B and C. The number wasn't significant. It had the heat riser removed.

Of course I went looking for the charts in all my stuff that's still unpacked from our move two years ago and have yet to find them. I'll be going up north next month where I can get copies to post.


So do you mean passenger side? The drivers side did not have heat risers. shruggy
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#2333193 - 07/07/17 03:18 PM Re: 383 HP 330vs335 hp [Re: 383man]
cudaman1969 Offline
master

Registered: 01/25/04
Posts: 4538
Loc: fredericksburg,va
Originally Posted By 383man
Originally Posted By dan9
If I remember correctly the ads or road tests of the new RR and Super Bee stated that they came with 440 heads. Maybe that lead to a a lot of confusion. I have old mags from the era and I am curious about what they said.



I remember reading that in a 68 Roadrunner add. And the reason being up to 1968 the 383 and 440 had different heads. After that as far as I remember both the 383 and 440 used the same 906 head up to 1970. But before 1968 the 383 used the small 1.60 exh valve heads and the 440 the 1.74 exh valve heads.

I believe in 1967 the 383 in the A-body (Dart & Cuda) that was rated at 290 hp used the small valve 1.60 heads and the 383 two brl cam. I think in 1968 the A-body 383 got the large valve 906 heads and the 300 hp rating and in 1969 the 383 A-body got the better 383 Roadrunner/SuperBee cam and the 330 hp rating. All in all it sure can get confusing. Ron

On the 67 440 engine, hp=big ex valve, lp=small ex valve. Dad bought a 67 New Yorker for parts for his car, came with the 440-2 barrel 915 head small valve. I Had the big valve installed and used them on my 69 383. I think 67 was the first year for the big ex valve on a production engine (GTX type) Dads NYorker had the 375 engine in it, same as GTX-RT

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#2333454 - 07/08/17 01:54 AM Re: 383 HP 330vs335 hp [Re: cudaman1969]
WO23Coronet Offline
master

Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 4148
Loc: Canada
No such thing as a 2bbl 440, but I think you're right on the standard '67 440 having 1.60" exhaust valves in 915 heads.

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#2333630 - 07/08/17 12:42 PM Re: 383 HP 330vs335 hp [Re: cudaman1969]
dan9 Offline
super stock

Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1010
Loc: pa.
Not to change the subject but I thought the 440's in Chryslers were 350hp.

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#2334839 - 07/10/17 03:25 PM Re: 383 HP 330vs335 hp [Re: dan9]
JohnRR Offline
I Win

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 73560
Loc: U.S.S.A.
Originally Posted By dan9
Not to change the subject but I thought the 440's in Chryslers were 350hp.


350HP std , 375HP optional in some models.
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#2334841 - 07/10/17 03:37 PM Re: 383 HP 330vs335 hp [Re: Alchemi]
JohnRR Offline
I Win

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 73560
Loc: U.S.S.A.
[quote=Alchemi]I have a 68 non hp 2bbl short block sitting assembled with new rings and bearings, I can not say for sure that the deck is untouched, but I do have a couple of pistons proud of the deck, they are dished
I will get some pics up soon [/quote

Did you check them all? I have the same piston right here next to me and the the only way it would be above the deck is if either the factory cut the block too much originally, which isn't the norm as they are usually tall, or someone cut it to square during a rebuild. Is the factory stampings still intact on the front pass side ID pad ?

The CH of that piston is 1.932, same as the HP flat top, and on a blueprint spec block deck it is .0025 in the hole .
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#2335198 - 07/11/17 08:25 AM Re: 383 HP 330vs335 hp [Re: JohnRR]
Alchemi Offline


Registered: 02/24/14
Posts: 171
Loc: Brisvegas, Australia
JohnRR the pad looks intact
D383
3 1 2

R
its a 67 casting date and only has a number stamped on the bottom of the bellhousing under the starter
It had been apart prior to me, one of the 906 heads ended with a -1 and the other -5
Recently it has been honed and the pistons/rods bead blasted, crank polished, machinist said a couple of pistons were down a few thou, and a couple of bores slightly larger (when I did ring gap, 2 ended up .004-5 bigger)
When I originally pulled the motor down a couple of years ago I checked the deck heights with a single piston and got not identical but similar results to below, that piece of paper long gone though
The odd side was at 0 ish - I could get .003 up on #1 giving it a tap with a dowel and 2 others less, but #5 is just under
Pad side however is way off
2 - 0, +.004T
4 - +.003, +.0075T
6 - +.0025, +.007T
8 - +.005, +.008T
If that side was machined, it was done very poorly compared to the other side (and would explain the intact pad?) After looking at how both 5&6 seem a bit lower than the neighbors id say I lost a thou or two on the crank polish and 6 must be a loose piston with the high tilt value

Machinist said I would have a bit of piston slap when cold and not to race it.... plans changed - it was thrown together to get the car moving, but now has much better internals collating. Wondering how it would go with some sidewinders and 2 different gasket heights, run it till it blows and then put the good stuff in... lols

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#2335427 - 07/11/17 04:07 PM Re: 383 HP 330vs335 hp [Re: Rhinodart]
dart4forte Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/31/03
Posts: 14570
Loc: Mesa, Arizona
Originally Posted By Rhinodart
Originally Posted By dart4forte
Several years ago a buddy of mine who owns a flow bench did a flow comparison between the various exhaust manifolds. The test was done out of curiosity and from a similar thread on moparts posted at the time. The test was to measure flow and port velocity. The manifolds tested were the B body magnum driver side, C Body magnum Driver side and my 68 GTS 383 driver side manifold. All the subjects were tested at 25" of Vacum. All the exhaust ports were tested to come up with an average

Both the B and C manifolds flowed within 5" of each other. Both had the heat riser with the flap wide open. The A Body driver side manifold flowed slightly less on average between the B and C. The number wasn't significant. It had the heat riser removed.

Of course I went looking for the charts in all my stuff that's still unpacked from our move two years ago and have yet to find them. I'll be going up north next month where I can get copies to post.



So do you mean passenger side? The drivers side did not have heat risers. shruggy



No, we did the driver side. I just mis-spoke. Guess I had passenger side on the brain. Still digging through my stuff. I did find the flow numbers on the heads on the 68 GTS.


Edited by dart4forte (07/11/17 04:09 PM)

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#2335960 - 07/12/17 01:06 PM Re: 383 HP 330vs335 hp [Re: Alchemi]
JohnRR Offline
I Win

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 73560
Loc: U.S.S.A.
Originally Posted By Alchemi
JohnRR the pad looks intact
D383
3 1 2

R
its a 67 casting date and only has a number stamped on the bottom of the bellhousing under the starter
It had been apart prior to me, one of the 906 heads ended with a -1 and the other -5
Recently it has been honed and the pistons/rods bead blasted, crank polished, machinist said a couple of pistons were down a few thou, and a couple of bores slightly larger (when I did ring gap, 2 ended up .004-5 bigger)
When I originally pulled the motor down a couple of years ago I checked the deck heights with a single piston and got not identical but similar results to below, that piece of paper long gone though
The odd side was at 0 ish - I could get .003 up on #1 giving it a tap with a dowel and 2 others less, but #5 is just under
Pad side however is way off
2 - 0, +.004T
4 - +.003, +.0075T
6 - +.0025, +.007T
8 - +.005, +.008T
If that side was machined, it was done very poorly compared to the other side (and would explain the intact pad?) After looking at how both 5&6 seem a bit lower than the neighbors id say I lost a thou or two on the crank polish and 6 must be a loose piston with the high tilt value

Machinist said I would have a bit of piston slap when cold and not to race it.... plans changed - it was thrown together to get the car moving, but now has much better internals collating. Wondering how it would go with some sidewinders and 2 different gasket heights, run it till it blows and then put the good stuff in... lols


Can you post a picture of the pad area ? The fact that the info is still thetre tells me it was either purposely machined like that and you would see a step , I have had a couple of 383's decked on a Rottler CNC and specifically asked that the ID pad not have the info machined off.


If you are expecting all the pistons to be the same depth from cylinder to cylinder you are expecting way too much from that engine. It MIGHT have been pretty close when it was new but after x number or hundreds , or even thousands of heat cycles?

I'm still surprised that you have positive pistons , are you measuring with a deck bridge directly over the center of the pin or out at an edge and rocking the piston?

Do you have a way to measure from the crank centerline to the top of the deck on the 4 corners ?
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#2336061 - 07/12/17 04:16 PM Re: 383 HP 330vs335 hp [Re: JohnRR]
Cab_Burge Offline
I Win

Registered: 08/23/03
Posts: 32103
Loc: Bend,OR USA
I've seen .018 in rod center to center length in stock rods, not in the same motor though work puke
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#2338494 - 07/17/17 03:48 PM Re: 383 HP 330vs335 hp [Re: 68mannix]
1969383S Offline
member

Registered: 07/14/13
Posts: 45
Loc: Georgia
All A-Body 383 cars in 69 at least, had Windage trays as well. See Attached. So it is doubtful the extra 5 comes from that alone. I think it is more a market game played by Ma Mopar.


Attachments
pan and windage info.pdf (55 downloads)

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Gerald

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#2339430 - 07/18/17 10:20 PM Re: 383 HP 330vs335 hp [Re: 1969383S]
1969383S Offline
member

Registered: 07/14/13
Posts: 45
Loc: Georgia
The only difference is in the manifolds used and the block configuration. The internals were all the same!

Maybe the model AVS Carb was different as 2 models are listed for each Stick and Auto

A-Bodies were "S" block builds. (Machined off Left side rear engine mount ear and drilled bosses at the oil pump for left side mount, chrome covers and oil breather.) Hemi Orange

RR and SB were "H" block builds (Normal Engine Mount ears no drilled boss at the oil pump.) Hemi Orange

It was nothing but marketing! They both have HP stamps on boss under the Dizzy.

Were they going to tell the buyers the Barracuda or Dart had the same power in an economy car as the highly marketed Road Runner or Super Bee mid size cars? Heck no, you spin it. The loss in advertised HP on the A-body left manifold was easily gained in weight loss of the car. A-body 383 cars rule!

See Attached.




Attachments
69-25-1_page5.jpg

69-25-1_page6.jpg

69-25-1_page8.jpg




Edited by 1969383S (07/18/17 11:46 PM)
Edit Reason: Final Word
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#2339523 - 07/19/17 02:28 AM Re: 383 HP 330vs335 hp [Re: 1969383S]
Cab_Burge Offline
I Win

Registered: 08/23/03
Posts: 32103
Loc: Bend,OR USA
Originally Posted By 1969383S


A-Bodies were "S" block builds. (Machined off Left side rear engine mount ear and drilled bosses at the oil pump for left side mount, chrome covers and oil breather.) Hemi Orange

RR and SB were "H" block builds (Normal Engine Mount ears no drilled boss at the oil pump.) Hemi Orange





Me thinks your confusing the M code 1969 A body 440 mounts with the H code 383 A body cars, the 440 had the oil pump bosses drilled and tapped, the 383 did not scopeThe A body 383 blocks from 1967 to 1969 had two bosses cast into the driver side block that where drilled and tapped for the block steel motor mount to bolt to, no cast in motor mounts ears machine off either shruggy
I've had two 383 A body cars that where original and seen several original M code 1969 440 A body cars, there are differences in them on the block machining and exhaust manifolds shruggy


Edited by Cab_Burge (07/19/17 02:30 AM)
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#2339571 - 07/19/17 08:17 AM Re: 383 HP 330vs335 hp [Re: Cab_Burge]
cudaman1969 Offline
master

Registered: 01/25/04
Posts: 4538
Loc: fredericksburg,va
Originally Posted By Cab_Burge
Originally Posted By 1969383S


A-Bodies were "S" block builds. (Machined off Left side rear engine mount ear and drilled bosses at the oil pump for left side mount, chrome covers and oil breather.) Hemi Orange

RR and SB were "H" block builds (Normal Engine Mount ears no drilled boss at the oil pump.) Hemi Orange





Me thinks your confusing the M code 1969 A body 440 mounts with the H code 383 A body cars, the 440 had the oil pump bosses drilled and tapped, the 383 did not scopeThe A body 383 blocks from 1967 to 1969 had two bosses cast into the driver side block that where drilled and tapped for the block steel motor mount to bolt to, no cast in motor mounts ears machine off either shruggy
I've had two 383 A body cars that where original and seen several original M code 1969 440 A body cars, there are differences in them on the block machining and exhaust manifolds shruggy

Also my 69 RR 383 block has those cast bosses for the mounts used in the a-body's .

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#2340310 - 07/20/17 11:24 AM Re: 383 HP 330vs335 hp [Re: Cab_Burge]
1969383S Offline
member

Registered: 07/14/13
Posts: 45
Loc: Georgia
I meant to say above the oil pump for the front mount bosses. Drilled and Tapped



A-body 383 left mount attaches to those 2 bosses above the pump and the front ear. The rear Ear for normal mounts used in RR/SB etc is machined off. Attached is a genuine A-body Block.


Attachments
Inked100_1816_LI.jpg


_________________________
Gerald

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#2340795 - 07/21/17 01:43 AM Re: 383 HP 330vs335 hp [Re: NachoRT74]
383man Offline
Too Many Posts

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 27035
Loc: Balt. Md
Found this info about 383's from 1970. Ron

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My car...63 Sport Fury Max Wedge wanna be street car..with new 493 pump gas full exh eng.......10.76 @ 124.49 ! ! ! My page on the cool 62-65 Mopar site ! http://www.1962to1965mopar.ornocar.com/mmo82008.html

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#2340900 - 07/21/17 10:09 AM Re: 383 HP 330vs335 hp [Re: 1969383S]
cudaman1969 Offline
master

Registered: 01/25/04
Posts: 4538
Loc: fredericksburg,va
Originally Posted By 1969383S
I meant to say above the oil pump for the front mount bosses. Drilled and Tapped



A-body 383 left mount attaches to those 2 bosses above the pump and the front ear. The rear Ear for normal mounts used in RR/SB etc is machined off. Attached is a genuine A-body Block.


Cool, learn something new everyday. Been a long time, but working on my buddy's 68 383 Darts (had two 383 GTS's, one auto, one 4-speed) can't remember seeing that, we removed engines and put on the stand to go thru.

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#2340904 - 07/21/17 10:15 AM Re: 383 HP 330vs335 hp [Re: 383man]
Triggerfish Offline
top fuel

Registered: 07/25/05
Posts: 1915
Loc: Blairsden, CA
Originally Posted By 383man
Found this info about 383's from 1970. Ron

Thanks much Ron. I didn't realize the Road Runner 383 was different than the Super Commando 383. Back in 70, I bought a 'Cuda 383 4spd new & it had the Super Commando that I thought had the same motor as my friends new Road Runner.

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