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Re: Advancing Cam question
[Re: Dodgeballs]
#2182598
10/25/16 11:09 PM
10/25/16 11:09 PM
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 469
Hawaii
Dodgeballs
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 469
Hawaii
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OK. Just to be 100% sure - When people say advance the 509 cam 4 degrees, that is 4 degrees advance at the crank? I read several posts by someone to advance the cam 8 degrees at the crank to get 4 degrees at the cam. And I have no idea if he knew what he was talking about. He was saying he was using a Mr. Gasket 985G offset key on the crank. I look up the 985G and it says it is a 2 degree offset. And I look at my timing chain set and now I am thoroughly confused.
Edit:
So I believe the markings on the crank gear are crank degrees. So if I want to advance cam 2 degrees, then I use the A4 marking on the timing gear.
BUT
Does the 509 like 4 or 8 degrees advance at the crank? (stock 1970 440, TM7 (for now) and Demon 750 carb, 4 spd, 4.10 gears Challenger)
Last edited by Dodgeballs; 10/25/16 11:38 PM.
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Re: Advancing Cam question
[Re: Dodgeballs]
#2182638
10/25/16 11:36 PM
10/25/16 11:36 PM
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Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,074
CA
crackedback
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,074
CA
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The cam straight up is at 108 Intake centerline. 4 advanced would be 104. I've installed that cam in lower compression 340/360 and 440s at 100 ICL, so it can be cranked more advanced than 4 degrees.  Stop confusing yourself, EVERYTHING is in crank degrees!
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Re: Advancing Cam question
[Re: crackedback]
#2182644
10/25/16 11:43 PM
10/25/16 11:43 PM
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 469
Hawaii
Dodgeballs
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 469
Hawaii
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The cam straight up is at 108 Intake centerline. 4 advanced would be 104. I've installed that cam in lower compression 340/360 and 440s at 100 ICL, so it can be cranked more advanced than 4 degrees. Stop confusing yourself, EVERYTHING is in crank degrees! Dang it. I get confused bc this one guy kept spurting 4 degrees, 8 degrees, calling a 2 degree offset key a 8 degree offset key, etc. OK. DEGREES IN CRANK DEGREES. Got it. Now the question is what would one suggest for my setup? stock 1970 440, TM7 intake (for now, could go with a Performer RPM later - though I had clearance issues with that intake on my other Challenger.) and Demon 750 carb, 4 spd, 4.10 gears Challenger Thanks for bearing with me.
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Re: Advancing Cam question
[Re: crackedback]
#2182682
10/26/16 12:20 AM
10/26/16 12:20 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
383man
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
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The cam straight up is at 108 Intake centerline. 4 advanced would be 104. I've installed that cam in lower compression 340/360 and 440s at 100 ICL, so it can be cranked more advanced than 4 degrees. Stop confusing yourself, EVERYTHING is in crank degrees! He is right as when talking cam advancing and retarding in degrees its usually always in crank degrees since the degree wheel is set up on the crank. Ron
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Re: Advancing Cam question
[Re: Dodgeballs]
#2182701
10/26/16 12:36 AM
10/26/16 12:36 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
Sport440
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
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[quote=crackedback]The cam
Now the question is what would one suggest for my setup?
stock 1970 440, TM7 intake (for now, could go with a Performer RPM later - though I had clearance issues with that intake on my other Challenger.) and Demon 750 carb, 4 spd, 4.10 gears Challenger
Thanks for bearing with me. With the stock engines comp, id advance it to 100 ICL if you could. Not sure you will have the intake to piston valve clearance though. At least try to get it to a 104 ICL though, if clearance allows. That cam doesn't have a lot of low end, so the advance will help. Your smart in choosing the RPM for later vs the TM7. It will make your 4 speed more driver friendly.
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Re: Advancing Cam question
[Re: Dodgeballs]
#2182716
10/26/16 12:53 AM
10/26/16 12:53 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,172
Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,172
Bend,OR USA
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Is this stock 1970 440 a magnum 375 HP or a non magnum 1970 350 HP 440 motor? Either way shoot for between 105 to 102 degrees on the intake lobe center in relation to top dead center using the 4 degree keyway on the crankshaft gear  Make sure and check the cam timing, DO NOT ASSUME that when you align the dots the cam timing is correct  I've had several different sets of Cloyes True Roller 440 three bolt timing sets that had the cam dot position between two teeth on the cam gear, if I aligned the cam dot to the driver side of the motor it made the cam timing 12 degrees retarded in the 4 degree advance position   if I aligned it so the cam dot was to the passenger side of the crank dot it was almost no advance or retard on the cam timing   Trust and then always verify 
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Advancing Cam question
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2182719
10/26/16 12:55 AM
10/26/16 12:55 AM
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 469
Hawaii
Dodgeballs
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 469
Hawaii
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It's a magnum 440 from an RT Challenger. Is this stock 1970 440 a magnum 375 HP or a non magnum 1970 350 HP 440 motor? Either way shoot for between 105 to 102 degrees on the intake lobe center in relation to top dead center using the 4 degree keyway on the crankshaft gear Make sure and check the cam timing, DO NOT ASSUME that when you align the dots the cam timing is correct I've had several different sets of Cloyes True Roller 440 three bolt timing sets that had the cam dot position between two teeth on the cam gear, if I aligned the cam dot to the driver side of the motor it made the cam timing 12 degrees retarded in the 4 degree advance position if I aligned it so the cam dot was to the passenger side of the crank dot it was almost no advance or retard on the cam timing Trust and then always verify
Last edited by Dodgeballs; 10/26/16 12:56 AM.
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Re: Advancing Cam question
[Re: Dodgeballs]
#2182732
10/26/16 01:15 AM
10/26/16 01:15 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,172
Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,172
Bend,OR USA
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I'll see where the cam is really at when I degree it. I will go to 100 if it is safe to do so. But I don't want to pull heads to check valve clearance. Should I just go to 104 or 102? Remember the scene in the old Dirty Harry movies with Clint Eastwood asking the guy on the ground" Are you feeling lucky" Are you feeling lucky? You don't have to remove the heads to check the piston to valve clearances as long as you have adjustable rocker arms, use a pair of solid lifter to do the cam timing check and piston to valve clearance check by using the adjusters on the rocker arms from around 15 degrees before top dead center to around 20 degrees after top dead center, slowly tighten the adjusters up with a dial indicator on the valve retainer to measure how much you are opening the valves before touching the pistons at 15,then10, then 5 BTDC and then at TDC and do the same checking on the other side at5,10,15 and finally at 20 degrees ATDC. Make sure and count the numbers of turns you tighten the adjusters up at each checking point and then back them off the exact same amount before moving the crankshaft to the next checking point  I quit checking once I have at least .100 P to V clearances I use a set of soft, light pressure, checking springs on the intake and exhaust valves to check V to P clearances and then reinstall the proper valve springs when I'm done doing all the checking Maybe you can find some small diameter springs in a hardware store over there to use on your motor also
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Advancing Cam question
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2182739
10/26/16 01:30 AM
10/26/16 01:30 AM
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 469
Hawaii
Dodgeballs
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 469
Hawaii
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Thanks! I never heard about that method before. I do have a set of adjustable rockers so I will try it. Thanks again for the learnin'! I'll see where the cam is really at when I degree it. I will go to 100 if it is safe to do so. But I don't want to pull heads to check valve clearance. Should I just go to 104 or 102? Remember the scene in the old Dirty Harry movies with Clint Eastwood asking the guy on the ground" Are you feeling lucky" Are you feeling lucky? You don't have to remove the heads to check the piston to valve clearances as long as you have adjustable rocker arms, use a pair of solid lifter to do the cam timing check and piston to valve clearance check by using the adjusters on the rocker arms from around 15 degrees before top dead center to around 20 degrees after top dead center, slowly tighten the adjusters up with a dial indicator on the valve retainer to measure how much you are opening the valves before touching the pistons at 15,then10, then 5 BTDC and then at TDC and do the same checking on the other side at5,10,15 and finally at 20 degrees ATDC. Make sure and count the numbers of turns you tighten the adjusters up at each checking point and then back them off the exact same amount before moving the crankshaft to the next checking point I quit checking once I have at least .100 P to V clearances I use a set of soft, light pressure, checking springs on the intake and exhaust valves to check V to P clearances and then reinstall the proper valve springs when I'm done doing all the checking Maybe you can find some small diameter springs in a hardware store over there to use on your motor also
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Re: Advancing Cam question
[Re: Dodgeballs]
#2182785
10/26/16 03:41 AM
10/26/16 03:41 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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confirm the dampener slit is at true TDC (piston stop) degree it as said & if the guys say 100 is the goal then achieve that or as close as your timing gearset adjustments will let you. As said check PV clearance. check wipe pattern/rocker to retainer/retainer to seal/coil bind/pushrod to rocker, those clearances & adequate lifter rotation. remove inner springs/adequate ZDDP/breakin oil/gun the eng to seat the rings. alot of prep but when done you will have a spot on long block & you have ONE shot to get a very good ring and cam breakin as opposed to an average breakin or even a poor one
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Advancing Cam question
[Re: WHITEDART]
#2184387
10/28/16 10:40 AM
10/28/16 10:40 AM
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 3,036
bean town ....Ca
WHITEDART
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 3,036
bean town ....Ca
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Spend a few bucks get the tools ...there are some great how to video..on youtube..
In the 8s N/A.with Brett miller W8's
5.07 at 133 at 2700lb
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Re: Advancing Cam question
[Re: Dodgeballs]
#2184585
10/28/16 03:21 PM
10/28/16 03:21 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,172
Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,172
Bend,OR USA
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I forgot to mention that you should use a set of solid lifters and pushrods to check the valve to piston clearances with light weight checking springs when checking the lobe timing, sorry  The hydraulic lifters can and usually will collapse without oil pressure giving you a false reading  Another check you can, and should do, is to check the exhaust lobe timing after you get the intake lobe where you want it, the exhaust lobe should have the exact same amount of advance that the intake has, IE cam is ground on 108 lobe separation angle and you install the intake lobe at 104 ATDC, the exhaust lobe should be in at 112 BTDC I have had several cams over the years that where not ground on LSA that the cam card called for Good luck on yours
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Advancing Cam question
[Re: Dodgeballs]
#2184895
10/28/16 09:45 PM
10/28/16 09:45 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
Sport440
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
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Thanks for all the responses.
I can advance it up to 8 degrees with this timing chain set. I'll see where the cam is really at when I degree it. I will go to 100 if it is safe to do so. But I don't want to pull heads to check valve clearance. Should I just go to 104 or 102? That cam is going to be tight, it may tell you just how far you can advance it. If you cant get it to at least 104, get a different cam.
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I would degree the cam off of the intake lifters at first and then check the intake lobe timing at the retainers to make sure the intake valves are timed off of the intake lobes correctly, IE if you use the 4 degree advance keyway on the timing set check the intake lobe timing to make sure the cam is installed so intake lobes are at max lift at 104 degrees after top dead center, not at 101 or 111 ATDC 
