5ltr, I appreciate your input.

However, to me, that red Road Runner just looks lame with those wheels. No offense, it's just not my thing, just no way I can accept a modern wheel on an older car.

It's like in the '70s when all those rock bands went disco - many did it and it actually was accepted by some but that didn't make it right.

Again, I'm really more of a purist when it comes to this type of stuff. Lame as it sounds, I'd probably be willing to sacrifice some handling performance for a more 'era correct' appearance.

Couple things I know I don't necessarily need or want; huge brakes that are gonna put me through the windshield, a super stiff ride or a really low car.

Maybe 'handling' here is more just mitigating the really bad aspects of '60s-'70s cars to a reasonable level as opposed to making it into a full-on autocross car.

From your first post you said what you wanted. You said that you DON'T want a race car, or autocross car. Just a better handling street car that doesn't tip over like a barge.

So, do what I said I did with my '71 Sebring. You'll be very happy. Rode nice, still soft for the long drives, and took corners GREAT! And the stock disc/drum power brakes worked great also.

The OP said "That being said, can you make one of these larger cars handle reasonably? I'm not going to autocross it or anything so no serious G Machine type stuff. Maybe some pieces here and there but whatever platform I end up with would likely stay 'stock'. "

Not handle like a slot car, not handle like his Mazda, of which he said The suspension is really stiff though and after a long drive in traffic, it gets tiring.

The biggest detriment to a stock C body's handling back int he day was it's narrow tires. No need for fancy suspension parts when the tires couldn't stick enough to tax the suspension anyway.

Doesn't wound to me like he wants monster brakes or donk rims either.

Firm Feel has everything he needs to get it to "handle reasonably" without it getting tiring or diving off into the non-stock aspects.

the 1969 CHP police polara held the road course record at 147 mph and it withstood the mustang and camaro challenges-----the record wasnt broken until a 2006 CHP police hemi charger hit 150 mph-----i am thinking the minivans you speak of were part of the atlas rocket project that was scrapped----time to clean the water out of your ears-----the c-body cars can be made to run---ask jay leno hes got a couple in his garage---maybe he will trade for one of your cool minivans...there is also alot of data from the michigan state police on these cars---if you want to read...edit---i am wondering if that 2006 hemi charger was an all wheel drive unit---that may skew the results...

another note on the fast c-bodies is the Tom McCahill reviews in mechanix illustrated----tom was the person that coined 0-60 performance in cars as a valid comparison---he was the first that would take a new car---run it hard then write an article about it----he would not regurgitate factory claims and gathered alot of resentment from the big 3 about his assessments....in 1963 (maybe 1965) he tested a chrysler newport----he stated it was the fastest 4 door sedan in america---every year after that he would hark back to that test and a car that no one could equal----finally in 1996 a 4 door caprice broke that record held by the newport-----kinda funny there were not any minivans getting a mention----guess he didnt drive any florida ones.....

I think a lot of distaste for modern rim sizes is the 35 and 40 aspect ratios that typically come with them. If you look for a 45 or 50 series in 17" diameters, you can restore a lot of the original look.

If you do stick with 15" tires, M/T SR and Maxxis Marauder may be the newest designs out there in 15" street tires.

I think that's probably true.

I will add though that extra diameter needed with the larger wheels makes them look disproportionate to me. Those wheels remind me of toys where the details are represented in a cartoonishly large manner. I never liked things like that!



Also, whatever over-the-top spoke wheel designers utilize, they are usually pushed out to the outside of the rim so there is no dish. If there is, it's minimal.

I understand that those aspects of modern wheel design are somewhat necessary to accommodate larger brakes/calipers but if I don't care about that idea so much then I can get away with a classically-styled 15" rim.

I will look into the M/T tires, thanks.

By your response, it looks like you just want a classic car that still looks like a classic, but with modern handling and braking. 1.0+" Torsion bars, hd leaf springs, welded subframe connectors, fox/bilstein shocks, firm feel steering box, and a 11.75" front 4-piston kit and a budget 10.75" 1-piston rear setup will get you there. Your problem will be finding a tire with a 15" wheel diameter, to actually make all these handling modifications worthwhile. It's your money, parts don't cost much more that can take you from 'it's a lil' better' to 'what an unbelievable difference', but it doesn't seem like you're after that. Pretty much what you said "okay brakes, soft ride, and high stance", kind of makes it sound like you just need to buy a c-body. Toss some bilstein shocks on it, front disc brakes, and modern radial tires; call' it a day.

I don't really consider 18" wheels with some of the best high-performance street tires available 'donk', but now when you get into 20-22's, it's a different story.

You either want classic, or you don't; it's apparent you just don't want the rocker panel to touch the pavement in a corner and to have enough braking performance to stop at the red light, which is perfectly alright. If that's all you care about, it's straightforward as both cars are capable of getting to that level with minimal work.

Obviously, it's going to be nothing like what you experience now (even in a Mazda), but it will be better than they were stock. Out of the two, the c-body is.. laughable when you mention road-racing, which is generally the direction you actually need to build these cars to handle fairly well and stop when you want them to, in the same sentence; but it's nice to be different sometimes as well. Our style of driving today is incredibly different than it was back in, people ride our bumpers, make panic stops out of nowhere, swerve to miss the leaves on the road', run stop signs texting their 'bff' while sipping starbucks and expect you to brake or swerve to miss them.. It's not the 1960's anymore, and it's kind of scary (in a way) to want to daily drive something that doesn't stop/turn well for safety reasons. These cars aren't easily replaceable, as long as you maintain all stock parts, everything can be restored to factory later on.

As for the c-body comment, it doesn't take much to outrun a car that weighs 4,200 pound vehicle with 350 flywheel HP (and around 20% drivetrain loss). A CHP Camaro Z28 (LT1) would eat it alive, and that's not saying a whole lot. Heck, even the CHP 5.0 LX Coupe's would outrun it, out brake it, and out maneuver it; with 150 less HP. The polara was actually one of the best cop cars of the era, it would be like them utilizing 6.4ltr Scat Pack Chargers today. I love these cars, but let's be realistic, most were s-l-o-w stock in a straight line (in comparison to today's vehicles) and needed much more rubber and suspension' to actually take a corner at speed (to compensate for lack of electronic aids/assists we have all been accustomed to). Our 440 donor engine actually came out of a wrecked police car in 73'.

Actually, most distaste comes from 20+" wheels with 30 aspect ratio tires ('rubber bands'), as they don't fit the bodystyle. As you can see with my Road Runner, the rear tires are 28.5" tall/11.6" wide with a high sidewall (45 aspect ratio). On the front, I run the same aspect ratio, and it's only 27" tall/10" wide with a good amount of sidewall (perfect rake 1.5"). You may have noticed, they are a near perfect replica of the Hellcat's wheels but in 18's, guess the Hellcat has donks' too because it runs 20's

If you're after the 'dish' look, my Saleen had it going on.. Good luck finding a wheel for a Mopar like this, unless you shorten the axle & minitub. Would look awesome with some torque thrusts, probably have to get some custom wheels made by American Racing to get the perfect offset/backspacing to do so.

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There are tons of wheels out there that will fit a C-B-E-F-A body with decent dish. My Dart has probably the least amount of "dish" capable front track width. Meaning they need more backspacing than the bigger cars.

Your dart looks great, but I'm surprised you weren't cast out of your local mopar club for running modern wheels instead of rallyes or steelies! Blaspheme!

Another issue with larger wheels on older cars is that the wheel openings were designed around a 14" or 15" wheel and tire. Conversely, modern car wheel openings are designed around larger wheels so they look more proportionate. Put a 15" wheel on a modern car and it looks just as silly as a muscle car with a larger wheel. Ever see an LX car with 20" front wheels and 15" slicks in the rear?

What can I say, it bugs me.

I am not totally opposed to updating older cars with modern equipment, there is a lot of it on my Duster - electric fan and water pump, Toyota alternator, serp belt, Bosch type relays, etc. Funny too because I was just thinking about how different it looks with all the shiny aluminum, black plastic and wiring, not even remotely old school.

But, that's under the hood and unless the hood is open and you really look at it, it's not that noticeable. People who know what they are looking at might react to it but it's not like set of wheels which can make or break a car. Again, if it came down to it, I would sacrifice some level of performance to achieve a pleasing aesthetic.

I don't really know if I am going to find a C-body, it might be a B body or even another A so this is all speculative thought. Regardless, it helps to flesh out the ideas and how far I would actually go. I prefer drag oriented cars myself but they're not totally practical for regular driving so in a sense, I am already making a concession to my ideals. I don't need to go too far in the opposite direction though, I'm sure I can come up with something that looks like I want it to while performing reasonably well under regular driving conditions.

Wheel well opening were designed around the tire and wheel combo.

27" tall tire is still 27" tall even if the rim is 15" or 18". What throws it off is the rubber to rim ratio, I expect to see more sidewall on older cars. I noticed on a couple of car build type shows they use a rim with a faux sidewall look.

http://www.deluxewheels.com/the-wheels/ as an example.

Which gives the benefit of a low profile tire with the look of traditional sidewalls.

Large or small, improved handling comes down to weight distribution and setting up roll couple to support that distribution and traction to translate it to the tarmac.

Can a C body be reasonably handling cruiser, absolutely. The basic formula for any of our cars isn't that different irregardless of the platform; stabilize the body with connectors and bracing, step up spring and/or anti-roll rates, control it with shocks, get decent rubber under it.

Most of that can be accomplished in a manner that will not detract from its classic looks. Tires is the only area it gets dicey, but if you are building a C body, UHP handling tires probably aren't going to be required anyway. The MT SR is an H speed rated, soft compound tire and the Maxxis is an H speed rated mid compound tire that will both match reasonably well to a classic with a vintage look and improved touring capability over your basic BFG or Cooper choices.

Two quick things, I think the biggest part that will bug you, B or C body is the steering, I have a firm feel stage 3 on my Barracuda, but the Borgeson on my Valiant felt much better. Don't skimp on steering. Second I agree 16" is prob perfect for you, but the Barracuda below had 18s and the Vette 17s, both with a little more tire height than most....

Here are 18" on a Vette for comparison as well, slightly smaller tire though.

And I think 18" can really suit just about anything with the large array of tire sizes you can get in it...

The lower profile tires are key to good handling. If the ride quality suffers it's because you suspension and shock package sucks.

Sorry, that yellow vette with the 18's has edged into clown car looks, imo. Which is subjective.

Looks better at other angles, that isn't the best shot but what I had handy.

Maybe it's just that the Ralley look of the wheels is distorted by enlarging the diameter.

I've yet to see a musclecar era rim, Rally, Magnum 500, etc, that looked good in bigger diameters. But again, it's subjective.

I tend to agree.

Not sure if it's because we are used to seeing them for all these years in 15" diameter or if they really do look odd or 'off' in larger sizes. I'm thinking it's the latter.

Looked at the Year One 17" Rallye and Magnum 500 type rims. They don't look too bad I guess if you have a 45-50 aspect ratio tire on it. I believe Year One changed their Rallye rims at some point recently by making the cut outs larger - they look more proportionate now then when they first came out, that original version was horrible.

I guess there is going to be a section of the hobby that can't get past the look of a larger wheel and are stuck in the past, me included. I might get over it at some point but it may be out of necessity when 15" tries are no longer around...

This is probably the same type of thing that happened way back when when muscle cars came on the scene. Bet a lot of the guys driving around in old Fords couldn't stand the showroom hot rods.