larger cars and basic handling

Thinking about picking up a C-barge or maybe a B-body for nice day 'daily driving' type duty. I spend a lot of time highway driving to get to work. I have driven 100K miles over the last 4 years in an '08 Mazdaspeed 3.

It's been a decent and fun car with the turbo, 6 speed manual and handling package. The turbo makes torque at any rpm and the 6 speed keeps it in the power band really easily. The suspension is really stiff though and after a long drive in traffic, it gets tiring.

Going from a sport-tuned turbo 4 import to a C barge or B body would certainly be a huge leap. I can't help but think I would miss the ability and responsiveness of the Mazda.

That being said, can you make one of these larger cars handle reasonably? I'm not going to autocross it or anything so no serious G Machine type stuff. Maybe some pieces here and there but whatever platform I end up with would likely stay 'stock'.

Not really into the rubber band tires on huge wheels but I might consider 16" steelies if I can find some that look OK.

I'm thinking rebuilt front suspension with 'good' parts/bushings, sway bars, t bars, lower a tad but not scraping the ground. I would like it to be easy to drive but be responsive and as agile as a larger car could be. I'm not an overly aggressive driver but I don't drive like an old lady either. I have gotten used to be able to whip my car around and it always does what I want it to predictably.

I know there is a lot of body roll, big mass and generally little road feel on '60s-'70s Chrysler products.

The one thing I am be undecided about is an engine. Big blocks make cars nose heavy but larger cars kind of 'need' it and don't really look right with small blocks. Maybe a small block stroker is a viable option? Whatever it winds up being it could very well be fuel injected and overdriven.

Sound like a decent plan or would it be an uphill battle with stock oriented parts?

Thanks for any input.

- Greg

Firm Feel is the only one I know of that sells handling components for a C-body. But IMO, a C-body will be nowhere close to your MazdaSpeed3, especially if you're only going to ride on 16" wheels at the biggest. First off, there's hardly any tire availability with 15 and 16" wheels. You'd need to go to a 17" wheel minimum, which don't look bad on C-bodies as they're so big, but even tire options are shrinking for those.

What I'm going to recommend to you is the same thing I did to my '71 Sebring.

Leave the stock springs and T-Bars under it. Makes for a great soft ride for everyday to-work trips, and across the state and such.

Get some heavy duty anti-sway bars. They will help GREATLY to get rid of the boat-leaning around corners.

My car had a 318 auto, plenty of power for daily driving. Yes a big block or stroker small block would have been better, but I never did install the hemi, or 440 that I wanted to get.

My car did great driving, and even on the 1/4 mile roundy round track one night.

Good to know about FF. I'm not dead set on a C barge. I have been looking for a cruiser though and have been intrigued by the land yachts more than I thought I would be. Mid '60s Furys are not too huge. A '67 Belvedere is another car I am looking at, that seems to be on the small side of the B body platform. I had one way back, never felt like a real big car. I'm guessing a B body might be a better starting point.

I know it's tough to compare two totally different cars from two entirely different eras. The Mazda is almost intuitive. I believe a lot of it has to do with the instant torque of the turbo which really helps with the handling, just easier to get in and out of situations quickly. Can't imagine making too many snap decisions in a land yacht.




Understood about the tire selection. Kinda why I am trying to stay relatively stock so there is less need for a bigger tire. I think once you start building the suspension to a certain point, the tires become more critical.

"I know there is a lot of body roll, big mass and generally little road feel on '60s-'70s Chrysler products."

OK, unless you are planning on gymkhana slaloming each and every moment you're behind the wheel, the '70 C's aren't the pigs on ice everyone makes them out to be.

Look at how cop cars are set up. I had a '77 Gran Fury cop car. Stiffer springs and T-bars, single anti sway bar, firm feel box, it would surprise you how far over the posted speed limit you could push it on an exit ramp. Handled surprisingly well for a large car and didn't beat you to death on a rough road.

I've also had a '71 Newport Royal. It was a basic model, PS, PB, AC, 360, but none of the NY'er weight adders. Mine weighed not much more than a B-body. Admittedly, it didn't handle as good as the '77, but I did scare the crap out of a couple of teens in a Mitsu Eclipse that couldn't shake me.

Don't get all stupid with one off parts and donk sized rims. Updated brakes, steering, and tires make huge differences on these cars.

I had the misfortune of driving a '77 Gran Marquis (Mercury/Ford) about a year after I got rid of my cop car. THAT was a pig on ice. If the exit ramp said 30MPH, you had better be doing 20 in that sucker.

Cool, thanks for the reply.

Not looking to go bananas with something like this, mostly just want a reasonably responsive car. You brought up cop car stuff, I was kinda thinking along those lines. Don't need tubular control arms or 14" brakes etc.

Looking at maybe a '71-'72 Satellite as another possibility, something more stripped down. Probably could go either way with a big or small block in one of those.

Hey, if an A body comes along that fits the bill, I might grab that too. Guess I just have a vision of a slightly larger car that makes some torque and handles everyday driving with ease.

So, where do you live? spahn means nuttin. lol

Here's an example of a C-body on 17's. Does not look like a "donk" by any means.

If it were me in your position and I was doing up a C-body or an older Fury, I'd just go to FirmFeel and buy front and rear sway bars, Bilstein shocks, no smaller than 1.12" T-bars, Stage 3 PS box, and a suspension rebuild kit. I'd redo the brakes and install 17" wheels with a good modern tire on it. Heck, the C-bodies have so much room and such a tall tire, you may be able to get away with a modern SUV tire. Does Dr Diff have C-body brake kits front and rear? It doesn't need to be crazy. I'd imagine the 11.75" rotors would do, but a 13" kit with the Cobra calipers up front should help stop the big boy down a lot easier.

Spahn Ranch

I live on Long Island about 35 mi. east of NYC. I commute 55 miles one way to Westchester County which is about 30 minutes north of the city.

The ride up is generally a little easier but in the afternoon, I sit in traffic for at least an hour. It generally takes anywhere between 1 1/2-2hrs to get home.

I always think how cool it would in an old Mopar instead of a Mazda. Life's too short not to drive something cool.

I think all that sounds reasonable.

I'll have to look at some of the larger wheels some more, most of them don't really appeal to me at all.

Was at Lebanon Valley Dragway for Mopar Day yesterday. Getting gas on the way home a guy in a '69 Charger with those 17" Magnums pulled in net to me. Didn't look too bad I guess. Guess I might have to get over it at some point.

I am familiar with the California location. Lived there for a bit...but things went a little helter skelter.

I think it is pretty straight forward to get a B or even a C to handle decently. As several have mentioned, step up the sway bars a lot, the T bars a little (or leave alone) and good shocks. Disc brakes up front with at least the 11.75" OE type rotor.

You also need to get the alignment dialed in with some negative camber and positive caster. Often this means at least offset bushings (or tubular UCA's).

The car - whatever it turns out to be - would likely do OK in your application with available 15" radial tires. 17" or 18" could add more tire options, more feel and higher limits but not required.

A basic front end rebuild with all or mostly all rubber bushings and a Firm Feel PS box is also important.

As far as power, that depends on taste and budget. I would want at least a moderately built 360 personally for a heavier car. For your application, I don't think you want a rough idle or engine that is touchy in traffic so more cubic inches help with good manners + power.

I ride a 69 Chrysler 300 and after a small crah I rebuild the whole front end and parts of the rear end.
All parts for the front end I bought at FirmFeel. Biggest sway bar with 1.25" - massive!
HD strud rods
PU all around and their tubular UCAs. KYB shocks in the front. Rancho 9000XL in the rear.
I also installed FF rear swaybar. Steering is with a 20:1 manual box.
The difference in comparisson to the original set up is like day and night.
Brakes are SSBC Force 10 with 4 pistons. With yellow EBC pads, a 15/16" MC, residual valves
and distributor block to reduce the back stopping power (ori drums) to a minimum,
the car stops great and I can get the front brakes to block completely.
Due to my TTI headers I am stucked with my original 0,98" t-bars. Announced that already
to TTI and they wrote they might take it into their buildings - we will see.
Wilwood now also offers disc brake kits for c-bodies.
Still on 15" wheels. But when ever I reached my goals to drive a 11.99 or less,
I will switch to a GV, 17" wheels and big brakes with hydroboost system and borgeson steering.

About 20 years ago, I had a 74 Newport sedan and a 75 Newport 4 dr. HT. Noticed the sedan had a larger front bar so I swapped it, used 15x7' wheels from a later model, 255/60 and 275/60 and lowered a tad. Picked up a 'police' rear bar, then noticed the Cordoba bar had the same shape, but was thicker. Bolted in, even the holes in the frame were punched. For a 5400# car, it handled real good, and I drove it hard. Wouldn't let me run a solo course though.

Hey Greg,

Pick a single direction with the car, get the c-body idea out of your mind if you're imagining a nimble, quick performance car (c-body is a boat, literally, a b-body is near 17' long already). Look for a nice 68-70 b-body project car that someone has laying around in their garage, you're not going to find anything relatively nice for under 20k if you look for drivers (at least not here in FL). You can pick up a nice a-body for 10-15k however, that would be an even better performance/handling application, but those are a dime-a-dozen.


Hotchkis is your friend, I would look into their TVS kit or purchase components individually. Biggest impact is front/rear swaybars, don't go for the knockoffs, buy your parts from the guys that actually test-tune-race these cars on the road course. Next step would be shocks and torsion bars. You'll have $1,400 in suspension work if you go with the non-adjustable shocks, and the car will blow you away in regards to your current thoughts on a b-body handling.

Next stop is braking, don't even waste your time anywhere else, go to Dr. Diff. Pick up his STAGE 3 or 4 kit for the front, and let him set you up with a rear set with 15/16" master cylinder/brake lines. You'll need 17-18" wheels to clear the 13" front rotors, so get the idea of 16" steelies out of your brain if you want to actually handle, brake, and have good lateral stability in the corner. If you have a 68-70 b-body, you can look into 94-04 mustang rear wheels, and 05-16 fronts to have a w-i-d-e selection of inexpensive 18" wheels that will clear large brake calipers. Stick with 255/45 fronts and 295-305/45 rears (28.5-28.8x11.6-12.0), that will give you a slight rake and a fair amount of sidewall (no rubber bands!!!!). No modifications are necessary to run this size on a b-body (don't even have to roll the fender lips), other than choosing a wheel with the appropriate backspacing/offset. Mustang wheels are $150 vs. $500+ ea. for a custom setup. For the savings, you could pick up a set specifically for the track as well.

As far as the engine goes, 440 all the way or 400 low-deck. We're talking about a car that's nearly 17' long, weighing 3,500-3,800, you'll need the additional torque. It's so easy to make 500HP out of a 100% street wedge, you'll be kicking yourself for not going with a big-block. With aluminum heads, water pump, manifold, etc. You'll probably figure out that the big-block weighs nearly the same or even less than a factory small-block.

Gearing, well, if you run an 8 3/4 it's pretty simple, toss in a 2.76-3.23 ratio for your daily commute. There is no reason to chase a few 1/10th's and deal with a 4.10-4.30 every day. You could easily get by with a 440/727 combo if you run higher gearing, that's what torque is for.. You'll have no problem getting up to speed at the light. Also, invest in a good wideband setup, tune it for 14-14.5:1 while cruising to save some fuel, nearly the same ratio at idle.

BTW:
My first car was an L98/z51 C4 corvette, and last three daily drivers were a 15' SRT M6 Challenger, C5 Z06, and S/C Saleen Mustang with a road racing suspension setup; so I'm used to corner carvers.

Good luck!

you guys need to be doing some reading on the CHP training academy road tests on their police cruisers---a 68 polara 440 car set a record that stood for almost 25 years on a road course----it was chased later by mustangs and camaros----not sure what finally caught up with it---but the idea a c-body cant get it done is nonsense.....

Found this while surfing around. Again, not in love with the wheel/tire combo. Wish bigger wheels were more subtle, just not my style at all.

He's coming from a Mazda 3 (106" wheelbase), a b-body is already quite a bit larger (relative overall length of a Chevy Suburban, 117" wheelbase), and a c-body is even longer than that (120+" wheelbase). You're talking back when a 6 second 0-60 time was impressive for a Hemi Cuda, and HD leaf suspension, brakes (big 11" drums!), and front/rear swaybars were voodoo other than on T/A cars and police cruisers. It was impressive back then, but a V6 minivan would probably outperform that Polara on the road course today..

You can get a b-body well into the 3400-3500# weight range, with some basic fiberglass parts, let alone aluminum heads, intake, etc. If you're going to be placing 10K + in suspension, wheels, tires, and brakes; why start with something that is exponentially more difficult to acquire parts for and with a dramatically smaller community. You'll have 15-20k into either car EASY! Honestly, an a-body is probably the better starting point, but a b-body is fairly capable (if lightened up!). C-body would be different, and the initial investment would be lower (obviously, would be dramatically less valuable in the long run , regardless of modifications). Good luck with whatever direction you choose, I'm sure it'll be a tough call either way.

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You don't have to go with a classic style wheel, if you really want a capable braking system, you're going to have to purchase a wheel with plenty of caliper clearance. Go to an inexpensive mustang wheel and never look back, just make sure you stick with the model years I outlined above. Year one makes some nice 17" wheel rallye reproductions (if you want subtle), not sure if they will clear Wilwood or any larger 4-6 piston calipers though.

5ltr, I appreciate your input.

However, to me, that red Road Runner just looks lame with those wheels. No offense, it's just not my thing, just no way I can accept a modern wheel on an older car.

It's like in the '70s when all those rock bands went disco - many did it and it actually was accepted by some but that didn't make it right.

Again, I'm really more of a purist when it comes to this type of stuff. Lame as it sounds, I'd probably be willing to sacrifice some handling performance for a more 'era correct' appearance.

Couple things I know I don't necessarily need or want; huge brakes that are gonna put me through the windshield, a super stiff ride or a really low car.

Maybe 'handling' here is more just mitigating the really bad aspects of '60s-'70s cars to a reasonable level as opposed to making it into a full-on autocross car.

From your first post you said what you wanted. You said that you DON'T want a race car, or autocross car. Just a better handling street car that doesn't tip over like a barge.

So, do what I said I did with my '71 Sebring. You'll be very happy. Rode nice, still soft for the long drives, and took corners GREAT! And the stock disc/drum power brakes worked great also.

The OP said "That being said, can you make one of these larger cars handle reasonably? I'm not going to autocross it or anything so no serious G Machine type stuff. Maybe some pieces here and there but whatever platform I end up with would likely stay 'stock'. "

Not handle like a slot car, not handle like his Mazda, of which he said The suspension is really stiff though and after a long drive in traffic, it gets tiring.

The biggest detriment to a stock C body's handling back int he day was it's narrow tires. No need for fancy suspension parts when the tires couldn't stick enough to tax the suspension anyway.

Doesn't wound to me like he wants monster brakes or donk rims either.

Firm Feel has everything he needs to get it to "handle reasonably" without it getting tiring or diving off into the non-stock aspects.

the 1969 CHP police polara held the road course record at 147 mph and it withstood the mustang and camaro challenges-----the record wasnt broken until a 2006 CHP police hemi charger hit 150 mph-----i am thinking the minivans you speak of were part of the atlas rocket project that was scrapped----time to clean the water out of your ears-----the c-body cars can be made to run---ask jay leno hes got a couple in his garage---maybe he will trade for one of your cool minivans...there is also alot of data from the michigan state police on these cars---if you want to read...edit---i am wondering if that 2006 hemi charger was an all wheel drive unit---that may skew the results...

another note on the fast c-bodies is the Tom McCahill reviews in mechanix illustrated----tom was the person that coined 0-60 performance in cars as a valid comparison---he was the first that would take a new car---run it hard then write an article about it----he would not regurgitate factory claims and gathered alot of resentment from the big 3 about his assessments....in 1963 (maybe 1965) he tested a chrysler newport----he stated it was the fastest 4 door sedan in america---every year after that he would hark back to that test and a car that no one could equal----finally in 1996 a 4 door caprice broke that record held by the newport-----kinda funny there were not any minivans getting a mention----guess he didnt drive any florida ones.....

I think a lot of distaste for modern rim sizes is the 35 and 40 aspect ratios that typically come with them. If you look for a 45 or 50 series in 17" diameters, you can restore a lot of the original look.

If you do stick with 15" tires, M/T SR and Maxxis Marauder may be the newest designs out there in 15" street tires.

I think that's probably true.

I will add though that extra diameter needed with the larger wheels makes them look disproportionate to me. Those wheels remind me of toys where the details are represented in a cartoonishly large manner. I never liked things like that!



Also, whatever over-the-top spoke wheel designers utilize, they are usually pushed out to the outside of the rim so there is no dish. If there is, it's minimal.

I understand that those aspects of modern wheel design are somewhat necessary to accommodate larger brakes/calipers but if I don't care about that idea so much then I can get away with a classically-styled 15" rim.

I will look into the M/T tires, thanks.

By your response, it looks like you just want a classic car that still looks like a classic, but with modern handling and braking. 1.0+" Torsion bars, hd leaf springs, welded subframe connectors, fox/bilstein shocks, firm feel steering box, and a 11.75" front 4-piston kit and a budget 10.75" 1-piston rear setup will get you there. Your problem will be finding a tire with a 15" wheel diameter, to actually make all these handling modifications worthwhile. It's your money, parts don't cost much more that can take you from 'it's a lil' better' to 'what an unbelievable difference', but it doesn't seem like you're after that. Pretty much what you said "okay brakes, soft ride, and high stance", kind of makes it sound like you just need to buy a c-body. Toss some bilstein shocks on it, front disc brakes, and modern radial tires; call' it a day.

I don't really consider 18" wheels with some of the best high-performance street tires available 'donk', but now when you get into 20-22's, it's a different story.

You either want classic, or you don't; it's apparent you just don't want the rocker panel to touch the pavement in a corner and to have enough braking performance to stop at the red light, which is perfectly alright. If that's all you care about, it's straightforward as both cars are capable of getting to that level with minimal work.

Obviously, it's going to be nothing like what you experience now (even in a Mazda), but it will be better than they were stock. Out of the two, the c-body is.. laughable when you mention road-racing, which is generally the direction you actually need to build these cars to handle fairly well and stop when you want them to, in the same sentence; but it's nice to be different sometimes as well. Our style of driving today is incredibly different than it was back in, people ride our bumpers, make panic stops out of nowhere, swerve to miss the leaves on the road', run stop signs texting their 'bff' while sipping starbucks and expect you to brake or swerve to miss them.. It's not the 1960's anymore, and it's kind of scary (in a way) to want to daily drive something that doesn't stop/turn well for safety reasons. These cars aren't easily replaceable, as long as you maintain all stock parts, everything can be restored to factory later on.

As for the c-body comment, it doesn't take much to outrun a car that weighs 4,200 pound vehicle with 350 flywheel HP (and around 20% drivetrain loss). A CHP Camaro Z28 (LT1) would eat it alive, and that's not saying a whole lot. Heck, even the CHP 5.0 LX Coupe's would outrun it, out brake it, and out maneuver it; with 150 less HP. The polara was actually one of the best cop cars of the era, it would be like them utilizing 6.4ltr Scat Pack Chargers today. I love these cars, but let's be realistic, most were s-l-o-w stock in a straight line (in comparison to today's vehicles) and needed much more rubber and suspension' to actually take a corner at speed (to compensate for lack of electronic aids/assists we have all been accustomed to). Our 440 donor engine actually came out of a wrecked police car in 73'.

Actually, most distaste comes from 20+" wheels with 30 aspect ratio tires ('rubber bands'), as they don't fit the bodystyle. As you can see with my Road Runner, the rear tires are 28.5" tall/11.6" wide with a high sidewall (45 aspect ratio). On the front, I run the same aspect ratio, and it's only 27" tall/10" wide with a good amount of sidewall (perfect rake 1.5"). You may have noticed, they are a near perfect replica of the Hellcat's wheels but in 18's, guess the Hellcat has donks' too because it runs 20's

If you're after the 'dish' look, my Saleen had it going on.. Good luck finding a wheel for a Mopar like this, unless you shorten the axle & minitub. Would look awesome with some torque thrusts, probably have to get some custom wheels made by American Racing to get the perfect offset/backspacing to do so.

photo hosting

There are tons of wheels out there that will fit a C-B-E-F-A body with decent dish. My Dart has probably the least amount of "dish" capable front track width. Meaning they need more backspacing than the bigger cars.

Your dart looks great, but I'm surprised you weren't cast out of your local mopar club for running modern wheels instead of rallyes or steelies! Blaspheme!

Another issue with larger wheels on older cars is that the wheel openings were designed around a 14" or 15" wheel and tire. Conversely, modern car wheel openings are designed around larger wheels so they look more proportionate. Put a 15" wheel on a modern car and it looks just as silly as a muscle car with a larger wheel. Ever see an LX car with 20" front wheels and 15" slicks in the rear?

What can I say, it bugs me.

I am not totally opposed to updating older cars with modern equipment, there is a lot of it on my Duster - electric fan and water pump, Toyota alternator, serp belt, Bosch type relays, etc. Funny too because I was just thinking about how different it looks with all the shiny aluminum, black plastic and wiring, not even remotely old school.

But, that's under the hood and unless the hood is open and you really look at it, it's not that noticeable. People who know what they are looking at might react to it but it's not like set of wheels which can make or break a car. Again, if it came down to it, I would sacrifice some level of performance to achieve a pleasing aesthetic.

I don't really know if I am going to find a C-body, it might be a B body or even another A so this is all speculative thought. Regardless, it helps to flesh out the ideas and how far I would actually go. I prefer drag oriented cars myself but they're not totally practical for regular driving so in a sense, I am already making a concession to my ideals. I don't need to go too far in the opposite direction though, I'm sure I can come up with something that looks like I want it to while performing reasonably well under regular driving conditions.

Wheel well opening were designed around the tire and wheel combo.

27" tall tire is still 27" tall even if the rim is 15" or 18". What throws it off is the rubber to rim ratio, I expect to see more sidewall on older cars. I noticed on a couple of car build type shows they use a rim with a faux sidewall look.

http://www.deluxewheels.com/the-wheels/ as an example.

Which gives the benefit of a low profile tire with the look of traditional sidewalls.

Large or small, improved handling comes down to weight distribution and setting up roll couple to support that distribution and traction to translate it to the tarmac.

Can a C body be reasonably handling cruiser, absolutely. The basic formula for any of our cars isn't that different irregardless of the platform; stabilize the body with connectors and bracing, step up spring and/or anti-roll rates, control it with shocks, get decent rubber under it.

Most of that can be accomplished in a manner that will not detract from its classic looks. Tires is the only area it gets dicey, but if you are building a C body, UHP handling tires probably aren't going to be required anyway. The MT SR is an H speed rated, soft compound tire and the Maxxis is an H speed rated mid compound tire that will both match reasonably well to a classic with a vintage look and improved touring capability over your basic BFG or Cooper choices.

Two quick things, I think the biggest part that will bug you, B or C body is the steering, I have a firm feel stage 3 on my Barracuda, but the Borgeson on my Valiant felt much better. Don't skimp on steering. Second I agree 16" is prob perfect for you, but the Barracuda below had 18s and the Vette 17s, both with a little more tire height than most....

Here are 18" on a Vette for comparison as well, slightly smaller tire though.

And I think 18" can really suit just about anything with the large array of tire sizes you can get in it...

The lower profile tires are key to good handling. If the ride quality suffers it's because you suspension and shock package sucks.

Sorry, that yellow vette with the 18's has edged into clown car looks, imo. Which is subjective.

Looks better at other angles, that isn't the best shot but what I had handy.

Maybe it's just that the Ralley look of the wheels is distorted by enlarging the diameter.

I've yet to see a musclecar era rim, Rally, Magnum 500, etc, that looked good in bigger diameters. But again, it's subjective.

I tend to agree.

Not sure if it's because we are used to seeing them for all these years in 15" diameter or if they really do look odd or 'off' in larger sizes. I'm thinking it's the latter.

Looked at the Year One 17" Rallye and Magnum 500 type rims. They don't look too bad I guess if you have a 45-50 aspect ratio tire on it. I believe Year One changed their Rallye rims at some point recently by making the cut outs larger - they look more proportionate now then when they first came out, that original version was horrible.

I guess there is going to be a section of the hobby that can't get past the look of a larger wheel and are stuck in the past, me included. I might get over it at some point but it may be out of necessity when 15" tries are no longer around...

This is probably the same type of thing that happened way back when when muscle cars came on the scene. Bet a lot of the guys driving around in old Fords couldn't stand the showroom hot rods.

I just saw a bunch of the Y1 17" wheels...I ship a lot of the Pontiac Rally II's to Oz and they come from US Wheel where I was picking some up. They designed them and have them and the other 17" versions of old wheels Y1 does made in china for them..the Mopar Rallye doesn't look bad in proportion I don't think at all.

No kidding. I have heard remarks from a couple of fossilized members in our Sacramento club.

There were quite a few cars with 16" wheels. Should be able to find a decent tire to work for him. For what he wants to do he doesn't need a low profile tire, just a good radial with the sidewall he likes. He wants a cruiser for the daily highway commute that responds when he steers. A little bigger on the torsion bars, good factory type shocks (no need for high $$ stuff) front and rear sway bars, rims and tires of his liking, moog offset UCA bushings, and a firm feel box and he will have exactly what he wants, a well handling and responsive cruiser. I would recommend at least 10.89 discs over drums but 11.75 would be better if not already on the ride he picks. He won't be on road courses, just normal driving. He would be more than happy with what I outlined I would think. I am no expert but that what it sounds like.

when my son bought his new challenger he got a ride on a chrysler test track---he went down to louisiana and got to drive the srt challenger/jeep and the chrysler 300----he drove down in his new car and told me he really took a pounding from the suspension----he said he broke the lap record of the chrysler driver which kind of PO'd him----he said the 300 had great speed and was very competent on the track even with a soft suspension---he said if he was picking out a commuting car he would go with the 300 over the challenger-----if there is a chrysler track near you maybe you can get a ride and get a feel for performance and comfort----also there is a car tv show out there that features the same 3 cars in germany running the autobahn--the last part a female race car driver drives the jeep on her home track---they told her what it would feel like (top heavy may feel like it will roll--just push through it) she went on to run the jeep on the course and beat her lap record in her race car---which astounded her----there are some big cars out there that run good---i wouldn't sweat all the tire hype-- 15's arent so narrow unless you are into running trailer tires....

I did that at one of their travelling road show tracks. One segment had a radar gun with a check speed immediately before a hard braking right hand turn. I asked what their fastest speed was for the day and told them I'd top it. I stayed in it so long before hitting the binders that the factory supplied co-driver was white knuckling it and putting his feet through the floor trying to slow us down. His sigh of relief as we made the corner was clear audible and made me laugh.

That's pretty much it in a nutshell.

I see that Firm Feel has suspension 'packages'. Not cheap but it looks like everything you would need. Appears to be based off factory parts except for the tubular UCAs, so no wild aftermarket parts that require this or that to work.

Again, not sure what I will end up with, just doing some preliminary research. Winter is coming soon which means old car season is winding down so this will likely be something that happens next year.

Thanks again for the input.

i wouldn't talk you out of buying another mopar, but no matter how you shake it -- with that driving your going to probably double your fuel costs of commuting.

given that fact -- it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, to embark on this endeavor for a daily driver @ 33K+ miles a year of commuting, especially with the awful NYC/long island traffic.

now if you just want to get another car and build it, well that makes a crap ton of sense.

Hey Mike. Sense and I are not real great friends...

It won't be an 'every day' driver, like day-in-day-out, 700 miles a week like I do with my Mazda. And no way it's coming out after the roads are salted. But, if it's nice enough out, I'd rather torture myself in style. I live like a monk anyway, gas is probably the only thing I spend money on.

When I insured my D100 last year the insurance company asked if I would be using it to offset some of the mileage I put on the Mazda. I said no initially because it sounded like an odd question but I thought about it later and decided maybe it's not such a good idea to put so many miles on any one car every year. So I guess the answer to that question is actually yes.

Fuel injection and overdrive are definitely part of the equation so there is a nod towards some level of economy. I know the initial investment on those things is probably such that you would never make your money back but it's fun to try at least.

But just to give a comparison - my Mazda 'requires' 93 octane gas which is normally 30-70 cents more depending on where you get it. I use my Stop N Shop rewards card sometimes which helps. On average, that little 4 cylinder FWD car gets about 325 miles per tank, sometimes more (rarely), sometimes less (often). I drive a minimum of 120 miles a day while getting pounded by a sport-tuned suspension.

I had an '01 Cherokee a few years ago that thing got like 16 mpg on a good day and that was an MPI 6 cylinder with an OD trans. My wife's Subaru with the V6 probably gets about 23-25 mpg as well on the highway, way less around town.

My D100 gets about 13 mpg if it's all highway driving. I drive it all the time too, including back and forth to work. I figure I can do a little better than that with a car. If I was able to get 16 mpg with a big block equipped B body, I'd be pretty happy.

My Duster is probably the most impractical but I've driven that back and forth to ETown a few times, wasn't crazy bad, probably about the same as the truck.

It's all relative. If it runs, I'm gonna drive it.

Got a couple of potential candidates I am looking at right now, we'll see what shakes out.

My vote is for a C-body.

If you shop around you can likely find a decent driver for less than a B-body basket case.

C-bodies get no respect even tho they are the next big thing.

This is my transmission builder's 66 300 with IIRC Wheel Vintiques in 16". Not sure of the tire size but pretty conservative as you can see.




My engine builder has a set of 15" Bassett circle track wheels on his lowered 91 Silverado with stainless trim rings and repro rallye centres and it looks really sharp for cheap. The nice thing about the Bassetts besides the price is you can order any backspace you want in 1/8" increments and the OEM style trim rings will snap on.

I would rebuild the front end with good quality OEM type components with offset upper bushings so you can get some positive caster.

Bilstein seems to be the go to "good" shock that delivers maximum control without destroying the ride on a C-body but they aren't cheap.

Next would be a big front bar either store bought or I've been told a mid/late 70's GM pickup bar can be cut down to work with the C-body mounts and links. I think they are 1 1/8th or so and salvage yard cheap.

I would stick with the stock torsion bars with the good shocks and big sway bar and see how I liked it before I went with bigger T-bars or a rear sway bar.

The factory 11.75 discs are quite capable as is. I'd look at better quality pads and maybe change the master cylinder to a 15/16" or 1" if I wasn't happy with the factory one before I got carried away with big brake kits.

Same with the rear drums. Properly built and maintained they are more than capable of exceeding the traction limits of most tire wear friendly rubber compounds. If they aren't already 2.5" wide, I'd upgrade to that or 3" if they were offered on Cop/trailer tow/HD or pick-up truck apps.


Seeing as I'm spending your money here I'd put a 4.25" crank in whatever is in it, 400 or 440 with aluminum heads, 9ish:1 compression so it will make 600+ ft/lbs on regular gas with an idles at 650 cam and top it off with whatever flavor of EFI suits you.

The easy OD solution is a shorty 727 with a GV. Not cheap but none of the others are either if you are starting from scratch.

3.55's with .78 GV OD = 2.76 final drive. 3.73 = 2.90 3.91 = 3.04. Pick your poison. With a stroker any of the above gears should be capable of gaining the respect of most uber cars either at a light or on the open road and still get "okay" mileage when driven accordingly.




Kevin

http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/threads/b-bodies-with-17-wheels-post-your-photos.50869/

That thread would have been real helpful if most of them would have said what rim they had. Saw a couple I thought looked good, but I dunno what they are.

I have a ton of miles in my wagon, I need stopping and handling.
I used all Firm feel parts to get what I needed for a regular use car, I stayed with 15" wheels and tires, used the Maxiss Marauder tires that have a good speed rating and stiff side wall.
I would do it all again.
For what you are asking this is good build and it stops.
I live in urban Toronto and I have driven in all types of traffic, I have driven it to Carlisle and the Nats for about 4 years now.
2:94 rear gears 727, 383 4 bbl dual exhaust.
Next thing that I think would be a big big improvement is good driving seats, the bench is getting old, it's old and it's getting old on me.
It really is a Keep It Simple Stupid build.
I removed the stock disc system and installed the later 12" with slider callipers and aluminum master on a power brake booster, also installed 70s dodge pick up rear wheel cylinders.
1.25" front sway bar, .75" rear, (I don't think I would have used a rear bar if it was a coupe)
1" torsion bars, all 4 Bilstein shocks. (that really feel great on this build)
15x7 cop wheels with front 245/60/15, Rear 15x8 with 275/60/15 rear.
I have caught many imports on off ramps and haven't noticed I was blocking anyone.
It certainly is not a track car, but it drives better then our 300c
1967 Dodge Coronet 440 wagon.

I created an account on those forums so i could quote their posts and ask and or PM them to find out.

I have a 68 fury so I'm biased, my thoughts:

Some of the earlier C's are not a lot heavier than the later B's

The C's can take almost any wheel at the back you like, the front gets interesting though.

A stroked SB with a 518 auto would be a better option, the combination is lighter and cheaper if you want the overdrive

Some Aero mods like a belly pan would pay off pretty quick on frequent commutes

You need to go to a really big 4 pot or 6 pot caliper to exceed the surface area of the single piston on the 69 and later C calipers, they are heavy, but they work fine

Do you guys run cars on propane much over there? no one seems to mention it, but its not uncommon on traditionally heavy fuel guzzlers here in OZ

Propane doesn't have a large following around here.

For a good torquey drivetrain with fi and od, think Magnum and a518 trans. Should fit the c body without too much hassle. Running donor truck or van can be found cheap.

Should be able to get mid teens in a c body.

Personally, I think most folks short change the abilities of most late 60s through 70's cars. They are actually pretty competent drivers. No not as razor sharp as some newer stuff but at normal speeds they do just fine. Sway bars and good shocks are the minimum but also the maximum.