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Roll cage welding #2146001 09/02/16 11:15 AM 09/02/16 11:15 AM
Joined: Apr 2014 Posts: 39 Florida R rpagan OP member
rpagan OP member R Joined: Apr 2014 Posts: 39 Florida	We had a customer come in to have us tig weld his chrome moly cage kit he tacked in with a mig. His top bars were tight against the roof. I told him we would have to cut the lower bars loose to lower the cage to weld the top of the cage. He told us that was not needed and that NHRA doesn't require the cage to be welded all the way around. My first reaction was WHAT??? That was a first for me and not what I would consider safe or proper. I tried to reason with him and eventually declined to do the job and sent the disgruntled customer on his way. Has anyone ever heard of this? How can that possibly be legal? Even if it's legal I will not let any job leave this shop in a condition I feel is unsafe or not up to our standards.

Re: Roll cage welding [Re: rpagan] #2146008 09/02/16 11:28 AM 09/02/16 11:28 AM
Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI MR_P_BODY Master
MR_P_BODY Master Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI	He is correct... but you need to add gusset plates but there is a percentage that has to be welded

Re: Roll cage welding [Re: rpagan] #2146027 09/02/16 11:46 AM 09/02/16 11:46 AM
Joined: May 2003 Posts: 13,187 aZLiViN J J_BODY I Live Here
J_BODY I Live Here J Joined: May 2003 Posts: 13,187 aZLiViN	I would have said you were dead wrong P.... that's interesting, but I agree with the OP.

Re: Roll cage welding [Re: rpagan] #2146033 09/02/16 11:49 AM 09/02/16 11:49 AM
Joined: Apr 2014 Posts: 39 Florida R rpagan OP member
rpagan OP member R Joined: Apr 2014 Posts: 39 Florida	Well us old guy's learn something every day...lol. As tight as the pipes were to the roof I don't think we could've got the percentage needed. I believe we will continue to do fully welded cages and add gussets as needed. Thanks for the reply Mr.P!!!

Re: Roll cage welding [Re: rpagan] #2146039 09/02/16 11:55 AM 09/02/16 11:55 AM
Joined: Apr 2014 Posts: 39 Florida R rpagan OP member
rpagan OP member R Joined: Apr 2014 Posts: 39 Florida	Not that we'd ever do it do you know what the percentage is? Just for me to store some more useless information. lol...

Re: Roll cage welding [Re: rpagan] #2146045 09/02/16 11:59 AM 09/02/16 11:59 AM
Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI MR_P_BODY Master
MR_P_BODY Master Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI	Originally Posted By rpagan Not that we'd ever do it do you know what the percentage is? Just for me to store some more useless information. lol... I dont know for fact but I think its 75%-80% but I agree.. I drop the cage and fully weld them.. you would have to ask a chassis inspector for the answer Last edited by MR_P_BODY; 09/02/16 12:06 PM.

Re: Roll cage welding [Re: rpagan] #2146100 09/02/16 01:11 PM 09/02/16 01:11 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,533 Alexandria, LA B Blucuda413 master
Blucuda413 master B Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,533 Alexandria, LA	It's in the SFI spec!! Don't have my spec handy.

Re: Roll cage welding [Re: rpagan] #2146103 09/02/16 01:12 PM 09/02/16 01:12 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 3,871 Smyrna, South Carolina STEFF master
STEFF master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 3,871 Smyrna, South Carolina	Mike is right. Per the SFI 25.5 Specs. Section 2, point 5, Where it is not practical to fully weld the windshield/roof bar (#12A & 12 B) and or the main hoop (#10) to their adjacent structure (ie: where the weld is in close proximity to the OEM roof), the use of two 1.75 x 1.75 x .110 plate gussets per affected joint is allowed to replace up to 25% of the weld. Each plate gusset must be fully welded on one side. Two fully welded tube gussets per affected joint, 3/4 x .049 moly or 3/4 x .108 mild steel, a minimum of 4" long may also be used. This option is applicable, only to welds in the OEM roof area. I'm sure if it's good for a 25.5 cert, it would be good for any random 12 point cage of a lesser spec.

Re: Roll cage welding [Re: rpagan] #2146116 09/02/16 01:24 PM 09/02/16 01:24 PM
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 11,551 Fulton County, PA C CMcAllister Mr. Helpful
CMcAllister Mr. Helpful C Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 11,551 Fulton County, PA	Rulebook says: two 1.75 x 1.75 x .110" or .75 x 4"min. x .049 CM gussets may be used to replace up to 25% of the weld. That's for 8.50 and slower. The SFI specs may allow something similar but I couldn't find it in a quick search of the book. Regardless, I would NOT do one like this. Nor would I touch something that the design of was not safe and proper IMO. That's just me and the OP is within his rights to not compromise his standards to satisfy a customer who's standards are not as strict. It's your name on it. ETA, boy, I'm a slow typist. Last edited by CMcAllister; 09/02/16 01:39 PM. If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.

Re: Roll cage welding [Re: rpagan] #2146148 09/02/16 02:03 PM 09/02/16 02:03 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 3,871 Smyrna, South Carolina STEFF master
STEFF master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 3,871 Smyrna, South Carolina	He's well in his right, if he's not confortable. The way I look at it is, If the NHRA and SFI Foundation accept it as a rule, I do not see a problem with. And, I'd have to think there's been plenty of destructive testing by the governing bodies, to come to the rules as written. I'm going to have to do it on my own car in the near future, as I will be finishing a cage from an existing roll bar and I want the roof bars tight to the OEM roof. Last edited by STEFF; 09/02/16 02:03 PM.

Re: Roll cage welding [Re: rpagan] #2146157 09/02/16 02:18 PM 09/02/16 02:18 PM
Joined: Jul 2006 Posts: 4,319 Puyallup, WA S StealthWedge67 master
StealthWedge67 master S Joined: Jul 2006 Posts: 4,319 Puyallup, WA	I was talking with a guy in the staging lanes a couple of weeks ago that I noted had recently added a bar to his car, a Dart, that has a real nice interior. I specifically asked about the upper welds and the headliner. His answer was simple, yet brilliant. He cut holes in the floor where the plates were to be welded in, dropped the bar through the holes to give room to weld the upper section of the rear supports to the main hoop, then raised it back up and slid in the mounting plates and made those welds. He then replaced the holes in the floor under the plates, tacking them and filling with seamseal adhesive. This may be an old trick, but I hadn't thought of it nor ever heard of anyone using it; and it allowed him to get the bar tight to the roof and fully welded without even removing the headliner. LemonWedge - Street heavy / Strip ready - 11.07 @ 120

Re: Roll cage welding [Re: StealthWedge67] #2146181 09/02/16 03:07 PM 09/02/16 03:07 PM
Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI MR_P_BODY Master
MR_P_BODY Master Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI	Originally Posted By StealthWedge67 I was talking with a guy in the staging lanes a couple of weeks ago that I noted had recently added a bar to his car, a Dart, that has a real nice interior. I specifically asked about the upper welds and the headliner. His answer was simple, yet brilliant. He cut holes in the floor where the plates were to be welded in, dropped the bar through the holes to give room to weld the upper section of the rear supports to the main hoop, then raised it back up and slid in the mounting plates and made those welds. He then replaced the holes in the floor under the plates, tacking them and filling with seamseal adhesive. This may be an old trick, but I hadn't thought of it nor ever heard of anyone using it; and it allowed him to get the bar tight to the roof and fully welded without even removing the headliner. Thats what most of us do

Re: Roll cage welding [Re: rpagan] #2146301 09/02/16 06:18 PM 09/02/16 06:18 PM
Joined: Jan 2004 Posts: 8,248 fredericksburg,va C cudaman1969 master
cudaman1969 master C Joined: Jan 2004 Posts: 8,248 fredericksburg,va	I took my roof off

Re: Roll cage welding [Re: rpagan] #2146311 09/02/16 06:40 PM 09/02/16 06:40 PM
Joined: Apr 2014 Posts: 39 Florida R rpagan OP member
rpagan OP member R Joined: Apr 2014 Posts: 39 Florida	That's what I suggested. He didn't want any holes in the floor. My background from years ago was circle track and sprint cars. Not welding the tubing totally would not fly. They tend to spend more time on their roof that the street and drag cars we do now...lol. We will continue to supply totally welded cages for safety of our clients and so I can sleep at nights. Thanks for the reply's guy's and I will keep this info. in my notebook even if I never use it.

Re: Roll cage welding [Re: rpagan] #2146661 09/03/16 09:43 AM 09/03/16 09:43 AM
Joined: Sep 2003 Posts: 19,386 north of coder moparx "Butt Crack Bob"
moparx "Butt Crack Bob" Joined: Sep 2003 Posts: 19,386 north of coder	i never could understand why the upper most part of the joint was allowed to be not welded [even using gussets] yet a perfectly good set of seat belts need replaced every two years if they are three inches wide. meanwhile, a 45 year old factory lap belt is ok to use in certain classes. i guess it's the golden rule : "he with the gold rules".

Re: Roll cage welding [Re: rpagan] #2146696 09/03/16 10:56 AM 09/03/16 10:56 AM
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 4,243 Charlotte, North Carolina sgcuda master
sgcuda master Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 4,243 Charlotte, North Carolina	I remember reading something about welds not being complete and adding gussets, just can't remember where. I just went through my 25.4 book, and there is absolutely nothing that says anything about that. I guess that means that it is NOT acceptable in the faster classes. If I had a full interior car and there was an option to fully weld the cage without gutting the car, I would pay the extra for it. [image][/image]

Re: Roll cage welding [Re: rpagan] #2146707 09/03/16 11:27 AM 09/03/16 11:27 AM
Joined: Apr 2014 Posts: 39 Florida R rpagan OP member
rpagan OP member R Joined: Apr 2014 Posts: 39 Florida	Charging extra???hmmm... now there's a thought...lol.

Re: Roll cage welding [Re: rpagan] #2146709 09/03/16 11:35 AM 09/03/16 11:35 AM
Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI MR_P_BODY Master
MR_P_BODY Master Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI	4 holes in the floor(where you would be welding the plates in) is the easiest way to do it.. no clue why he didnt want to

Re: Roll cage welding [Re: rpagan] #2146715 09/03/16 11:45 AM 09/03/16 11:45 AM
Joined: Apr 2014 Posts: 39 Florida R rpagan OP member
rpagan OP member R Joined: Apr 2014 Posts: 39 Florida	One thing I've learned is you can't please everyone. We try to please the other 99%.

Re: Roll cage welding [Re: rpagan] #2146796 09/03/16 02:09 PM 09/03/16 02:09 PM
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 11,551 Fulton County, PA C CMcAllister Mr. Helpful
CMcAllister Mr. Helpful C Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 11,551 Fulton County, PA	Holes in the floor under the plates, and even if they're not, can be welded, ground up and made invisible. I cut a pie shaped area on two sides, fold it down, and when finished on top, fold it back up against the plate, weld and grind it. Dust it with primer. Can't tell it was done. 25.x cages with a lot of bars and a funny car cage? Just take the roof off. If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.

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