Re: Carbon Fibre Hood?
[Re: 604 Hemi GTX]
#2127894
08/08/16 02:31 PM
08/08/16 02:31 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890 North Alabama
Monte_Smith
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You have to be careful when you order carbon parts. The material costs twice as much, but weighs the same as fiberglass. The ONLY way the carbon hood is lighter, is because there is less of it, because of strength. BUT and here is the tricky part........to lay up the super light weight, super thin carbon stuff, you have to be able to pull a vacuum on the mold to do it correctly and few can do that. Also the "carbon" parts you get from some companies not only weigh the same as glass, they are also not really carbon. They will be glass, with the final layer carbon, to give it the "look".
So if you are looking for a true, super light carbon hood for a 70 GTX, probably not going to find such a thing. If you just want the "look" buy a glass one and have a carbon wrap put on it
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Re: Carbon Fibre Hood?
[Re: 604 Hemi GTX]
#2127943
08/08/16 03:23 PM
08/08/16 03:23 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890 North Alabama
Monte_Smith
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Ok so I'm probably better off sticking with Fiberglass then. Who do you guys recommend for a quality glass hood?
Kevin Glasstek is probably your best choice
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Re: Carbon Fibre Hood?
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#2127948
08/08/16 03:36 PM
08/08/16 03:36 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
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When you do the vac on CF there is other stuff that has to be applied so when its vac down it sucks up all the extra reson ... I had to build a big bag to vac it but I screwed up and didnt have my stiffeners on it when I vac it down so I added them after but didnt vac them... I could have gone with 2 layers of CF but I put 3 layers on it.. if done right 2 is plenty... my hood weighs 6#.. my fiberglass one was 17# but that was with the scoop
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Re: Carbon Fibre Hood?
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#2127971
08/08/16 04:09 PM
08/08/16 04:09 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
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To give an idea of what NICE carbon fiber weighs. Customer with a Pro-Mod 63 Vette. The nose on those is pretty big. His entire nose and hood, with a 6" cowl and a titanium tree, weighed 11 pounds. Entire carbon bodies from 5 star bodies can weigh as little as 40 pounds Yeah I was listening to yesterdays BS when they were in the rain delay.. and they said about 60# for a funny car body... I still thought that was light... I've always noticed that they always have the big guy open the body after the burn out... but I think thats for height
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Re: Carbon Fibre Hood?
[Re: 604 Hemi GTX]
#2127986
08/08/16 04:36 PM
08/08/16 04:36 PM
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 116 Florida
mack
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My DP Challenger came with a CF hood... About two years ago the scoop came off and it wasn't the hood or the scoop it was the lament that was used to attach.. Anyway, I remember the hood being as heavy as the scoop. I didn't weigh either but they felt the same.. That was close enough for me.. I do know that Mike Pustalny (SP) has CF and Glass hoods for the DP's that want to put them on springs and a hood latch like a normal car and get rid of the 12 fasteners.. He might have an outlet for other CF hoods... Might be worth a call... All he can say is no...
Mack Reeves
SST 2377
FS/D 2377
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Re: Carbon Fibre Hood?
[Re: 604 Hemi GTX]
#2128015
08/08/16 05:35 PM
08/08/16 05:35 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696 Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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Ok so I'm probably better off sticking with Fiberglass then. Kevin I for the life of me can't see how that conclusion could be drawn from the prior replies to you making it. The material costs are indeed higher, the CF, which has already been mentioned, but you need a lot less thickness with CF for equal stiffness, and the extra epoxy cost. There is no gel coat normally with CF. However the actual material costs are only a fraction of the total delivered price, and CF is way worth it weight wise, and does a better jib of retaining its shape in use, then FG/resins. Vacuum bagging any composite part is always preferred, but seldom done with FG. I would not toss the towel in so fast.
Last edited by jcc; 08/08/16 05:36 PM.
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: Carbon Fibre Hood?
[Re: 604 Hemi GTX]
#2128057
08/08/16 06:30 PM
08/08/16 06:30 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
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One thing you will see in fiberglass is that it moves in heat(sun light).. this doesnt happen with CF.. I made my first hood in fiberglass.. it would sag in the sunlight after a few hours... that was the reason I changed over to CF... the hood I have on my Rampage is from AAR in Florida.. nice piece... BUT it still moves in the heat.. I might take a mold off of it and build it in CF.. I'll see within a year.. if it continues to move like it has been I will pull a mold if I can get it back to the proper shape EDIT You would be far better off going with CF... if you can find a shop that has the mold for your hood and your willing to pay the price.... way lighter, way stronger, doesnt move in the heat.... make some calls.... a few questions will tell you if its all cf or over fg... cf has a weight and the reson after vac is almost nothing... just ask the weight of the cloth they will use and if they will vac it down... they dont vac fg
Last edited by MR_P_BODY; 08/08/16 06:41 PM.
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Re: Carbon Fibre Hood?
[Re: 604 Hemi GTX]
#2128217
08/08/16 10:08 PM
08/08/16 10:08 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,647 aotearoa
rebel
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aotearoa
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If you know someone with a mold, ask if they can do Kevlar. That front clip I posted can be held above my head with just 1 hand. It is so light. If I could tape both my doors n bootlid to it I could still lift it with 1 hand. If you know any boat builders, they could possibly help you.
Last edited by rebel; 08/08/16 10:09 PM.
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Re: Carbon Fibre Hood?
[Re: 604 Hemi GTX]
#2128299
08/08/16 11:30 PM
08/08/16 11:30 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
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I'm not saying I don't want cf but if it's going to be 3 or 4 the price of fg and they can't do the cf procedures properly. I'm way further ahead buying a fg hood, so besides cloth thickness and if they vac cf parts what else should I ask?
Thanks Kevin Really nothing other than number of layers and support ribs.. 2 layers is fine if it has good supports and location of them.... and of course price
Last edited by MR_P_BODY; 08/08/16 11:31 PM.
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Re: Carbon Fibre Hood?
[Re: rebel]
#2128308
08/08/16 11:38 PM
08/08/16 11:38 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696 Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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I would only suggest Kelvar if one felt part was going to be abused in use, and separating from the car would be a bad thing after contact. In the case of a hood that could be good or bad. Kevlar is not as strong as CF, just a lot harder to separate after failure, where Cf will mainly shatter when it fails. A single layer of Kevlar with the CF is not a bad compromise, I do it often. edited
Last edited by jcc; 08/09/16 11:29 AM.
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: Carbon Fibre Hood?
[Re: 604 Hemi GTX]
#2128373
08/09/16 12:33 AM
08/09/16 12:33 AM
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 314 Medina, OH
dart440_72
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Just wondering if anyone here has got a carbon fibre hood on there ride? If you do who did you get it from? I'm in the market for a carbon fibre hood for my 70 Plymouth GTX
Thanks for any and all info Kevin I ordered a hood from Unlimited products with a scoop on it. They offer carbon hood/hood scoops. Unlimited Products http://www.up22.com/index.htm
72 Dart 500" low deck Indy SR heads. 10.40 @129 best so far
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Re: Carbon Fibre Hood?
[Re: dart440_72]
#2128988
08/09/16 10:15 PM
08/09/16 10:15 PM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,414 St. Croix, US Virgin Islands
David_in_St_Croi
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As Andy F said, a 70 GTX is not that hard to make. I made a mould for our 70 RR as the bonnet is rusty and with the tunnel ram it is now lift off. Lifting off the steel bonnet is getting old very quickly but life as it often does has thrown a spanner in the schedule. The big thing with carbon is not so much the strength but the stiffness. The modulus of elasticity of carbon fibre is about 5 times that of glass, particularly when you are looking at unis. My plan is a light carbon cloth on either side of a 19mm nomex core. The bonnet is basically square so a 0/90 laminate works well as the stresses and required stiffness are similar in both directions. The core will give the thickness required for stiffness while keeping the weight. As I have a vacuum pump it is no problem getting both high fibre volume laminates and good core bonding. Around the perimeter and the hole for the carbies there will be some extra lamination. At the bonnet pin locations a G-10 compression tube and local build up will be utilized. For the mould I used polyester as it is cheap, for the part epoxy will be used of course. Basically, once it is off the car, wax it like crazy and level it. Turns out I should have used some PVA in addition as will be seen later. Then start lam inating. I put a layer of mat down then I believe 3 layers of 24 oz/yd^2 roving plus mat. Ugly but only planning on one part out of it: Once it is cured need to put a grid on the backside that is nice and level. This grid does two things. It stiffens the mould and when placed on sawhorses and leveled with shims it ensures the part is not warped. The use of a scribe makes short work of marking the braces. Perfect fit not required, actually a loose fit is in ways better. Easier to level and the tabbing will not create as much of a hard spot. Transfer height to forward grid cross piece: The wedge in former picture sets the level to level and it is sitting on the forward cross piece by that height. Set the scribe to that height and mark the forward cross piece: Double check level fore and aft and athwarthsips: Grid tabbed in place: Wedging mould off of bonnet: Even with the wax it pulled some of the paint. Poor quality paint job and I should have used PVA on top of the wax but I am sure the paint will come out easily. Clean up the sharp edges and you are done, with the mould at least. Or order one from the suppliers mentioned. I know an excellent composite builder in Bristol, Rhode Island who could do a beautiful bonnet for you. You would need to ship the metal one for him to make a mould.
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Re: Carbon Fibre Hood?
[Re: David_in_St_Croi]
#2129049
08/09/16 11:01 PM
08/09/16 11:01 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696 Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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Bitopia
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I surprised you used no gel coat on the mold, even for a one off. The no pva,
Last edited by jcc; 08/09/16 11:02 PM.
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: Carbon Fibre Hood?
[Re: jcc]
#2129087
08/09/16 11:43 PM
08/09/16 11:43 PM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,414 St. Croix, US Virgin Islands
David_in_St_Croi
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I surprised you used no gel coat on the mold, even for a one off. The no pva, Yes, I know on the PVA I think if I had used better wax would have been ok. After all, would have just waxed the mould next step so any residue is not an issue. As far as gel coat, the mould was expensive enough (island prices). The layer of straight mat I put against the surface was resin rich and I worked it with a bubble popper roller, as I did with the subsequent layers. It should be fine for 1, at most 2 parts (all the core I have). The important thing is it is airtight and that is where the rolling out comes into play, along with wetting the material out on the bench, then transferring to the plug, rather than attempting to wet out in place. I am not expecting a straight to clear coat part, it is getting painted. We don't have the mild sun you have in Florida , it eats clear coats here (and subsequently the resin underneath as it is also UV sensitive). For a mould that will see multiple uses, go straight to a tooling surface like Duratec, rather than run of the mill gel coat. It is the orange stuff in the picture. It will polish up to a nice gloss surface. That part is half of an ama for a 36 foot trimaran which will see considerable sea loads. As you can see carbon correctly engineered gives a stiff and light part. This is the shop in Bristol I mentioned.
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Re: Carbon Fibre Hood?
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#2129095
08/09/16 11:54 PM
08/09/16 11:54 PM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,785 Utah and Alaska
astjp2
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Carbon is one of the stiffest fibers you can get as a consumer. When carbon is layered over a glass shell, it becomes a box beam type structure. Also 100% of the stress/strain in a multi fabric structure will be taken by the stiffest fiber (carbon) until that fails then it transfers the load to the next stiffest fiber until that fails.. Vacuum bagging is one primary way to improve the resin to fiber ratio, too much resin, it is heavier than necessary, too little and not enough bonding of the fibers. Many epoxy resins use heat to accelerate the curing time but IR and UV light can damage the fibers so don't try to cure a part in the sun...I used a heat gun in an old refrigerator to get the temperature up to 140*f and it accelerated my west systems epoxy from 24 hours down to about 4. You have to be careful when you order carbon parts. The material costs twice as much, but weighs the same as fiberglass. The ONLY way the carbon hood is lighter, is because there is less of it, because of strength. BUT and here is the tricky part........to lay up the super light weight, super thin carbon stuff, you have to be able to pull a vacuum on the mold to do it correctly and few can do that. Also the "carbon" parts you get from some companies not only weigh the same as glass, they are also not really carbon. They will be glass, with the final layer carbon, to give it the "look".
So if you are looking for a true, super light carbon hood for a 70 GTX, probably not going to find such a thing. If you just want the "look" buy a glass one and have a carbon wrap put on it
1941 Taylorcraft 1968 Charger 1994 Wrangler 1998 Wrangler 2008 Kia Rio 2017 Jetta
I didn't do 4 years and 9 months of Graduate School to be called Mister!
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Re: Carbon Fibre Hood?
[Re: astjp2]
#2129335
08/10/16 11:41 AM
08/10/16 11:41 AM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696 Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
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Neber heard of IR damaging fibers, I assume Kelvar is the most fragile, can't imagine CF would be delicate. And about busting Davids chops on no use of Gel on his mold, I understand the island price concern, and sounds like you mitigated its non use. The issue is, to those here in the states also making a one off, if your mold has any/slightest imperfections, you will live with that or fix it later in the final piece, and a hood is the most visible part on a car, or close to the drivers door in visibility.The GEl coat in a mold, mainly provides as David mentioned, ability to polish the gel without a break thru into fibers concern, and mainly, IMO reduces shadow "print thru" of the first layers of fibers, be they roven, fabric, or mat onto the molds surface, not an ideal cosmetic result.
Last edited by jcc; 08/10/16 11:43 AM.
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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