1974 Satellite Brake problems Need help
#2126692
08/06/16 07:23 PM
08/06/16 07:23 PM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 8,430
St Charles MO
70Coronet500Vert
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St Charles MO
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1974 Satellite, disc/drum car 318.
Today, new steel lines on rear, new rear hose, existing steel line front to rear, existing steel lines MC - prop valve, existing steel lines prop valve to caliper hoses, new hoses to calipers.
Did rear brakes, adjusted tight, not too tight.
Put in new master cylinder (MC). Bench bled MC, installed on car, bled entire car. no air. Have checked several times.
PROBLEM. We get a hard pedal bleeding. Start car, goes to floor, little to no pedal at all. Not spongy, not low, but damn near on floor and barely holds car. Turn car off, brakes will pump back up to hard pedal.
Reading FSM, a troubleshooting step is to pump up brakes, hold, start car. Says brakes should drop a little, then hold. If it does not do this they say replace booster. What they do not say is if the pedal does not fall replace booster, or if the pedal falls too far replace booster, or if either, replace booster. I really dont want to spend $150 on a booster for now reason.
Any other ideas? I have read through all search results on "brakes" and now I am going to search on booster and MC. But maybe one of you guys knows what this is. I could use the help.
No matter how responsible he may seem, never give your gun to a monkey!
1970 Coronet Vert
1972 Charger
1974 Satellite Sebring Plus Sundance
2001 Ram 4x4
2002 Intrepid
2006 300C
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Re: 1974 Satellite Brake problems Need help
[Re: 70Coronet500Vert]
#2126707
08/06/16 08:04 PM
08/06/16 08:04 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
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Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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check the clearance between the booster pushrod round threaded nub and the bottom of the MC rear piston "thimble". want ~ .020"). you might be able to observe the fluid for any signs of movement when it gets started with a helper or likely pull the MC (4) nuts & pull the MC forward so you can measure
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: 1974 Satellite Brake problems Need help
[Re: 70Coronet500Vert]
#2126750
08/06/16 09:39 PM
08/06/16 09:39 PM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 8,430
St Charles MO
70Coronet500Vert
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St Charles MO
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On the end, there is a small rod sticking out. Wasnt sure if it should be in or out
No matter how responsible he may seem, never give your gun to a monkey!
1970 Coronet Vert
1972 Charger
1974 Satellite Sebring Plus Sundance
2001 Ram 4x4
2002 Intrepid
2006 300C
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Re: 1974 Satellite Brake problems Need help
[Re: 70Coronet500Vert]
#2126800
08/06/16 11:09 PM
08/06/16 11:09 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
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Circle Track
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Lincoln Nebraska
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if the rounded nub clearance is OK what I would do is get (2) brass inverted flare plugs from the Edelman cabinet at your parts house & remove the lines from the MC & cap the ports then idle it & if the booster & check valve is fine and the MC is holding pressure & bled out the pedal will be rock hard with virtually no travel and the prob is downstream (air). if you have a pair of junk fittings/lines you can cut the tubing on em right at the fitting and hammer it shut & screw em into the MC to cap em for the same effect which'd save you a trip to your parts house. & if it ain't high and tight then something is fubared with the booster or MC. EDIT on that prop valve pin iirc you hold it out with a clip when bleeding
Last edited by RapidRobert; 08/06/16 11:21 PM.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: 1974 Satellite Brake problems Need help
[Re: magiccuda]
#2126872
08/07/16 12:51 AM
08/07/16 12:51 AM
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,452
Morristown Tn.
71birdJ68
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master
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,452
Morristown Tn.
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That is in my 71 service manual, but I don't know about 74. You do that if you pressure bleed from the bottom or the top, but not if you just let it gravity bleed. Seems like if it's over 35 pounds or something like that. I take a good quality squirt can with fluid in it and slowly push it up from the wheel into the master cylinder. Of course if something else is wrong this will have nothing to do with that.
Last edited by 71birdJ68; 08/07/16 12:52 AM.
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Re: 1974 Satellite Brake problems Need help
[Re: 70Coronet500Vert]
#2127016
08/07/16 11:10 AM
08/07/16 11:10 AM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 8,430
St Charles MO
70Coronet500Vert
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OP
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Book said gravity bleed OK to ignore pin because under 35psi. Book said ok to ignore pin on manual bleed because over 135psi. Book said use tool to hold pin on a pressure bleed because that is over 35 and under 135 psi. So I did not worry about the pin.
No matter how responsible he may seem, never give your gun to a monkey!
1970 Coronet Vert
1972 Charger
1974 Satellite Sebring Plus Sundance
2001 Ram 4x4
2002 Intrepid
2006 300C
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Re: 1974 Satellite Brake problems Need help
[Re: 70Coronet500Vert]
#2127032
08/07/16 11:31 AM
08/07/16 11:31 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,067
Irving, TX
feets
Senior Management
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Senior Management
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,067
Irving, TX
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Don't worry about the pin.
You stated that you could pump up the brakes with the engine off. You should not have to pump them. It should be tight on the first hit.
It sounds like you still have air in the lines.
Did you bench bleed the MC properly before installation?
I use the little clear hoses that come with aftermarket MCs. The MC gets locked in my bench vise by one of the mounting ears then I take a big phillips head screwdriver that barely fits in the hole and slowly press the piston in until it bottoms. It is allowed to come back VERY slowly and I watch the clear hoses for bubbles. If bubbles get sucked back in towards the port I hold the piston in place and let the bubbles rise to the top of the hoses.
It takes a few minutes to bleed this way but you can be sure the MC is properly bled. The tiniest bit of air will jack with your pressures.
We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind.
- Stu Harmon
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Re: 1974 Satellite Brake problems Need help
[Re: 70Coronet500Vert]
#2127045
08/07/16 11:50 AM
08/07/16 11:50 AM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
DAYCLONA
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I Live Here
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Posts: 18,157
Mass
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1974 Satellite, disc/drum car 318.
Today, new steel lines on rear, new rear hose, existing steel line front to rear, existing steel lines MC - prop valve, existing steel lines prop valve to caliper hoses, new hoses to calipers.
Did rear brakes, adjusted tight, not too tight.
Put in new master cylinder (MC). Bench bled MC, installed on car, bled entire car. no air. Have checked several times.
PROBLEM. We get a hard pedal bleeding. Start car, goes to floor, little to no pedal at all. Not spongy, not low, but damn near on floor and barely holds car. Turn car off, brakes will pump back up to hard pedal.
Reading FSM, a troubleshooting step is to pump up brakes, hold, start car. Says brakes should drop a little, then hold. If it does not do this they say replace booster. What they do not say is if the pedal does not fall replace booster, or if the pedal falls too far replace booster, or if either, replace booster. I really dont want to spend $150 on a booster for now reason.
Any other ideas? I have read through all search results on "brakes" and now I am going to search on booster and MC. But maybe one of you guys knows what this is. I could use the help. Assuming the components are in new/good condition, eliminate the basic possible installation errors: (1) booster to master cylinder rod air gap/adjustment, improperly adjusted this can cause low/no pedal or hard pedal/dragging brakes, you need to adjust any time a replacement master is added to the system (2) are the front calipers on the correct side of the car?, are the bleeders located at the highest point in their mounting to allow air to be properly bleed? (3) when bench bleeding the master did you bottom out the piston?, if so you may have damaged the piston O ring(s) by over stroking it, if so, it'll never create/hold pressure once installed in the system These are just some of the basic problems, but from your description I would tend to think your issue is in the booster to master air gap, I would start there...you need between .020 to .060 max air gap 
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Re: 1974 Satellite Brake problems Need help
[Re: DAYCLONA]
#2127046
08/07/16 11:51 AM
08/07/16 11:51 AM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
DAYCLONA
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I Live Here
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Mass
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Re: 1974 Satellite Brake problems Need help
[Re: Andrewh]
#2127085
08/07/16 01:03 PM
08/07/16 01:03 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
DAYCLONA
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I Live Here
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BUT- lets back up.
Did you only change that steel line? nothing else? Why did you change it?
IF that is the only thing you did, you are just messing your self up checking these other things. IF the brakes worked fine before and you only changed that line you need to be checking things down stream to see if something couldn't handle the change before you start messing up stream again.
He did change the master cylinder, even if he had the original one in place rebuilt, you still need to check the air gap between the master and booster regardless
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Re: 1974 Satellite Brake problems Need help
[Re: mopars4ever]
#2127091
08/07/16 01:10 PM
08/07/16 01:10 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
DAYCLONA
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I Live Here
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Mass
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how do you measure that gap? Normally I use a set of dial calipers to measure the depth of the bore on the master from the mounting face in the rear of the master, to the bottom of the bore/piston then measure how much rod protrudes from the master's mounting face on the booster to the tip of the booster's pushrod, then it's just simple math to determine the desired length needed, plus they sell simple go/no go gauges at most auto parts stores like seen below
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Re: 1974 Satellite Brake problems Need help
[Re: 70Coronet500Vert]
#2131813
08/13/16 10:11 AM
08/13/16 10:11 AM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 8,430
St Charles MO
70Coronet500Vert
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OP
master
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St Charles MO
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So, the master cylinder pushrod was only about 1/2" short!!!! I adjusted it, it is a lot better but I do not know if it is exactly 0.02 gap. Probably could use a little more adjusting.
I used a sharpie on a dowel rod no fancy gauges do I own. It is close. It is better.
Of course, the starter cable laying on the brake line somehow rubbed a hole in the cable insulation and then the starter cable burned a hole in the brake line three days later. Thank god the stuff is not easily flammable.....
No matter how responsible he may seem, never give your gun to a monkey!
1970 Coronet Vert
1972 Charger
1974 Satellite Sebring Plus Sundance
2001 Ram 4x4
2002 Intrepid
2006 300C
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